Jordan's help. Wow.

.
[COLOR="White"]..................................................[/COLOR][COLOR="Red"][size="4"]All Star Teammates[/size][/COLOR]


[B]All-star appearances while playing with Kareem:[/B]

Magic 10
Worthy 6
Bob Dandridge 2
Jamaal Wilkes 2
Oscar 2
Flynn Robinson 1
Norm Nixon 1
AC Green 1
_____________
[I][COLOR="Indigo"]8 players, 25 appearances = 6/9 in Finals[/COLOR][/I]




[B]All-star appearances while playing with Magic:[/B]

Kareem 10
Worthy 6
Jamaal Wilkes 2
Norm Nixon 1
AC Green 1
_____________
[I][COLOR="Indigo"]5 players, 20 appearances = 5/9 in Finals[/COLOR][/I]




[B]All-star appearances while playing with Bird:[/B]

Parish 9
McHale 6
Tiny Archibald 3
D Johnson 1
_____________
[COLOR="Green"][I]4 players, 19 appearances = 3/5 in Finals[/I][/COLOR]




[B]All-star appearances while playing with Shaq:[/B]

Kobe 7
Wade 3
Penny 2
Van Exel 1
Eddie Jones 1
Horace Grant 1
_________________
[I][COLOR="Indigo"]6 players, 15 appearances = 4/6 in Finals[/COLOR][/I]




[B]All-star appearances while playing with Lebron:[/B]

Wade 4
Bosh 4
Kyrie 1
Mo Williams 1
Zydrunas 1
______________
[COLOR="DarkRed"][I]5 players, 11 appearances = 2/6 in Finals[/I][/COLOR]




[B]All-star appearances while playing with Duncan:[/B]

Parker 6
Robinson 3
Ginobili 2
________________
[COLOR="black"]3 players, 11 appearances = 5/6 in Finals [/COLOR]




[B]All-star appearances while playing with MJ:[/B]

Pippen 6
_______________
[COLOR="Red"][I][B]1 player, 6 appearances = 6/6 in Finals[/B][/I][/COLOR]
.

[QUOTE=BIZARRO]You should change your post to "he had help winning a TON of rings".

And that loaded comment about the walk on water. He DID in those series. You know as well as I do they played one of the truly great teams in the 86 (and 87 Celts (before injuries hit them later in the playoffs) and a 59 win Bucks team.



And nope. You could do this with ANY player who's had success with a who they played with over their career, and they'd come off a hell of a lot more impressive than Mike's cast.

I watched almost every game of Mike's career. He CARRIED that s*** regularly. And other than Rodman, he MADE those players what they were.

And quite frankly if Kukoc, BJ, and an ancient Harper are the players near the top of your list in a 14 year career, then GTFO.

Just shows how Mike did more with less than anyone.

[B]When the playoffs came, his stats go way up. No coincidence. Because it was money time. Time to carry the team. And that's his playoff stats went up. Because when the going got tough. Mike upped it, when hardly ANYONE else on the team did.[/B]


Listen bro, I love your Wilt posts. And I have Wilt as the greatest center ever. But Mike played with crap relative to other great players.

But what separates Mike from others is he stayed and turned crap into something that was functional. [B]AND he turned it up like NO ONE EVER DID [/B]when it mattered in the playoffs.[/QUOTE]

This. :applause: and yes somehow Grant, Oakley, BJ, Kukoc, Harper are all time great help but mentioning Rice, Malone, Payton, MWP, Odom, Bynum, or Howard for Kobe or Z, Hughes, Shaq, Jamison, Mo, Allen, or TT for Lebron would cause an uproar to his fans :oldlol:

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]First of all...

CONTEXT.

Again, the '94 Bulls were an example of the quality of teams in the 90's. Basically without their best player, and with their two remaining stars missing a combined 22 games... a 55-27 record, and realistically a title contender.

The watered down 90's consisted of 60 win teams with maybe two stars. Unlike the 80's, which had STACKED rosters of 3-4- and even 5 HOFers.

And Jordan had his share of flawed performances. He was basically outplayed by Mongrief in their '85 H2H. He choked big time in the clinching game three of the '86 series against the Celtics. In their '87 rematch, against a crumbling Celtic team, he shot .417, which included a 9-35 performance in the clinching (and sweeping) loss. In the '89 ECF's, he QUIT on his team in a game five of a series that was tied 2-2, and ultimately a 4-2 loss.

Oh, and his numbers DECLINED considerably against the Bad Boys from '88 thru '90. And his teammates overcame shooting of .455, .427, and ,415 in his last three Finals.

No one is arguing against his place in NBA history. He is a Top-5 GOAT, and has a case for the GOAT.

BUT, the point of the OP was that, yes, he had a TON of help along the way.[/QUOTE]

Context. MJ is the only superstar who has a case for GOAT who NEVER played with anyone who demanded a double team.

So combine that with playing against the Bad Boys Pistons D. What he did was absolutely miraculous.

Let me ask you a question. Which I would love to hear you answer.

Are you saying that there is a player who played at a higher level than Michael Jordan did in the playoffs over the course of their career?

If so, who?

"Phil Jackson had earned the head coaching job for the Eastern Conference stars and took his coaches along. The game would not be close, but it was instructive. The Bulls' coaches watched Celtics star Reggie Lewis fumble around almost in fear, Rodman virtually unable to make a layup and Brad Daugherty, Kevin Willis,a nd Michael Adams seemingly be overmatched. They talked about icon the way back to the hotel. [B]In Jordan, Pippen, and Horace Grant, they believed they'd perhaps three of the five best players in the conference, and some of their role players seemed more capable than the All-Stars[/B]."-Jordan Rules, page 366.

So anyone acting like Chicago wasn't stacked during their championships runs are full of crap or a complete Jordan Stan.

Really? :facepalm

Horace Grant was one of the top 5 players in the Eastern Conference?

It's a good thing you're listening to Sam Smith, who is the only person with a bigger agenda than who started this thread.

1991 All Star Game Roster:
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_NBA_All-Star_Game[/url]

No Pippen. No Grant. On the East squad.


1991 MVP Voting: [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1991.html[/url]

I see 10 players from the Eastern Conference. No Pippen. And especially no Grant.


Listen, I love Scottie and Horace. But when the Bulls won the title in '91 I don't see an all star from that team other than MJ.

Hmmm....

[QUOTE=BIZARRO]Really? :facepalm

Horace Grant was one of the top 5 players in the Eastern Conference?

It's a good thing you're listening to Sam Smith, who is the only person with a bigger agenda than who started this thread.

1991 All Star Game Roster:
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_NBA_All-Star_Game[/url]

No Pippen. No Grant. On the East squad.


1991 MVP Voting: [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1991.html[/url]



I see 10 players from the Eastern Conference. No Pippen. And especially no Grant.


Listen, I love Scottie and Horace. But when the Bulls won the title in '91 I don't see an all star from that team other than MJ.

Hmmm....[/QUOTE]

They are talking about 1992(That piece came from the Afterword chapter in the Jordan Rules).

And yes, you could make a case that Chicago had 3 of the 5 best players in the conference that year. We all know about MJ and Pippen, but Grant was extremely good in 1992 and should have made the all-star team.

[QUOTE=game3524]

So [B][COLOR="Red"]anyone[/COLOR][/B] acting like Chicago wasn't stacked during their championships runs are full of crap or a complete Jordan Stan.

[/QUOTE]
[B]Here's Magic Johnson responding to Bob Costas on national television during halftime of a 1993 Finals game - the question was whether Magic's Lakers could've beaten Jordan's Bulls:[/B]

[INDENT][I][COLOR="DarkRed"]"We had more weapons.... Get me in foul trouble, and get Michael in foul trouble, and take us both out, and you'd see what would happen - we would dominate them."[/COLOR][/I]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=0m16s[/url][/INDENT]



[B]Then Costas asked Isiah to respond to Magic's assertion that the Bulls were beatable due to weaker supporting cast:[/B]

[INDENT][I][COLOR="Navy"]"When you're talking about this Bulls team, you're only talking about Michael Jordan.... You can't really say that our team would've beaten him or the Lakeers would've beat him, because no one has figured out how to stop this guy.. Sure, if you take Michael away, and you take Magic away, and you take me away, yeah, then our teams are better, but the fact is, he's still there (he hasn't been taken away)."[/COLOR][/I][/INDENT]



[B]Later in the interview, Costas [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=5m00s]asked[/url] Magic if he thought MJ was the best ever[/B]:

[INDENT][COLOR="DarkRed"]"[I]I think so. I think he's not only the best basketball player, but probably the greatest athlete that has played any sport.. We can only dream of doing the things he can do, that being me and Isiah.[/I]"[/COLOR][/INDENT]



^^^ This was all during the 1993 Finals.. MJ was considered the best ever before he even won 3 championships - [U]that's how dominant he was[/U].. Young kids have a hard time accepting this 20 years after the fact.. But the dominance of today's player doesn't compare, and this is reflected in the stats (for those who never saw him play).

[QUOTE=BIZARRO]Really? :facepalm

Horace Grant was one of the top 5 players in the Eastern Conference?

It's a good thing you're listening to Sam Smith, who is the only person with a bigger agenda than who started this thread.

1991 All Star Game Roster:
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_NBA_All-Star_Game[/url]

No Pippen. No Grant. On the East squad.


1991 MVP Voting: [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1991.html[/url]

I see 10 players from the Eastern Conference. No Pippen. And especially no Grant.


Listen, I love Scottie and Horace. But when the Bulls won the title in '91 I don't see an all star from that team other than MJ.

Hmmm....[/QUOTE]

And yet, in the '91 ECF's, when MJ once again had his numbers decline, but this time against a Piston team that was a shell of what they had been the three previous seasons...it was Pippen and Grant coming up huge!

And then in the Finals, when a declining Magic somehow willed his rapidly declining Lakers to a stunning upset of the 63-19 Blazers, and with his supporting cast either injured or washed up...MJ was brilliant. But, so were Pippen and Grant.

Grant's post-season play has been enormously under-rated here. Take a look at what Grant's ORtgs were from '91 thru '96. He was even leading the entire NBA at times.

I find it interesting that there are those that rip Pippen's play in the '90 ECF's, and yet won't acknowledge that because of his play in '91, the Bulls were able to finally overtake a crumbling Piston team.

How important was GRANT in those runs? Take a look at what happened when he LEFT the Bulls. He immediately took a 50-32 Magic team to a 57-25 record, and a trip to the Finals. Oh, and along the way, he BURIED Jordan's Bulls with a massive 18-11 .647 FG% series. Furthermore, had he not been injured in the '96 ECF's, who knows how that series would have gone. As it was, with no Grant, the Bulls put Rodman on SHAQ at critical junctions, and he shut him down. How come no mention of that?

Look, if merely scoring were all that mattered, then how come MJ couldn't lead a team to a playoff win in '87? How come he was repeatedly beaten by the Bad Boys? Well, we all know the answer...he didn't have enough help. BUT, when he had the best supporting cast in the 90's...a cast that could win 55 games without him, and were basically a title-contender, again, withOUT him, they finally won rings.

To his credit, MJ was the key reason. But, let's get real here...without OUTSTANDING supporting casts, he would have never tasted a ring.

.
[SIZE="4"][COLOR="Red"]Argument for Jordan winning in 2014:[/COLOR]
[/SIZE]


[B]Dallas and OKC hold Kawhi to 12 ppg on ~45%[/B]

[INDENT][I][COLOR="navy"]Result: competitive series[/COLOR][/I][/INDENT]


[B]Portland and Heat let Kawhi score 18 ppg on ~57%[/B]

[INDENT][I][COLOR="Navy"]Result: Massacre [/COLOR][/I][/INDENT]


Clearly, the Spurs were a much better team when Kawhi was a bigger part of the offense.. In the Heat's case, Lebron's poor defense enabled Kawhi to be the best Spur [I]for the first time in the playoffs[/I], which unlocked the Spurs' optimal chemistry (120 ORtg) that we didn't see against other Spurs opponents, even Portland (113 ORtg).

If Lebron could've held Kawhi to 12 ppg on sub-40% like DAL and OKC did, the Heat would've still lost, but it would've been much closer - now if he adds the offensive aggression [I][COLOR="Navy"]AS WELL[/COLOR][/I] by doubling his shot attempts like he did in 2015 Finals (which won 2 games with worse supporting cast against better team), the Heat WIN.

So Lebron needed to accomplish 2 things that MJ would've done - don't let a role player be FMVP (hold Kawhi to the same 12 ppg that DAL and OKC did) and be more aggressive offensively like Jordan always was, and like Lebron was in 2015 Finals.. And don't get carried off the floor in Game 1 - it's kind of hard to hold teammates accountable on both sides of the ball after that.






.
[COLOR="Red"][SIZE="4"]We can all but PROVE Jordan would've won 2007 Finals:[/SIZE][/COLOR]


[I][SIZE="2"]Game 1 was an eight point game in 4th quarter, despite only 10 points on 5-15 from Lebron.. Games 3 and 4 were nail-biters, despite Lebron's 25 points on 39% and 24 points on 33%, respectively.

Now if Jordan shoots 15-25 percentage points better from the field, [COLOR="Navy"]like all these guys did against the same Spurs team[/COLOR], the Cavs win all three of those games:[/SIZE][/I]


[B][I]Melo vs. Spurs in 2007 1st Rd[/I]: [COLOR="Red"]27 ppg on 48%[/COLOR]

[I]Dirk vs. Spurs in 2007[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] WCF[/I]: [COLOR="Red"]27 ppg on 53%[/COLOR]

[I]Bonzi vs. Spurs in 2006 1st Rd[/I]: [COLOR="Red"]23/12 on 61%[/COLOR]

[I]Kobe vs. Spurs in 2008[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] WCF[/I]: [COLOR="Red"]29 ppg on 53%[/COLOR]

[I][COLOR="Navy"]Lebron vs. Spurs in 2007 Finals:[/COLOR][/I][COLOR="blue"] 22 ppg on 35%[/COLOR][/B]



[I][SIZE="2"]Lebron shot 65.4% at the rim (40% of offense), so his lower overall efficiency compared to his peers was due SPECIFICALLY to his jumpshooting efficiency:[/SIZE][/I]


[COLOR="White"].................................[/COLOR][SIZE="2"][B]Jumpshot Efficiency vs. Spurs in 2006-2008 Playoffs
[/B]

[COLOR="White"]....................... [/COLOR]midrange jumpshot FG%[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 3-point jumpshot FG%[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] Jumpshot proportion of offense

[url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/1719/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=1]Bonzi 2006 1st Rd[/url] ..............50.0........................... 62.5............................... 32.2
[url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/1717/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=3]Dirk 2006 WCF[/url] ..................41.3........................... 50.0 .............................. 61.2
[url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2546/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=1]Melo 2007 1st Rd[/url] ...............37.5........................... 50.0 .............................. 59.1
[url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/shooting/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=3]Kobe 2008 WCF[/url] .................50.0........................... 33.3............................... 63.3
[url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]Lebron 2007 Finals[/url] .............[I][COLOR="red"]14.8........................... 20.0............................... 52.2[/COLOR][/I]
[/SIZE]


[size="2"][I]

Since jumpshot efficiency was the key to good overall efficiency against the Spurs, MJ would've had great efficiency, since he was a better midrange shooter than all these guys and frequently relied on his jumpshot to have big games.

Clearly, the Spurs' jumpshooting defense wasn't prohibitive, since everyone shot well on jumpshots, EXCEPT Lebron - Lebron simply can't shoot..[/i][/size]




[B][COLOR="Red"]An argument for Jordan winning 2015 Finals[/COLOR][/B]


[I]Once again, two things would've gotten the job done[/I]


[INDENT]1) don't let role player be FMVP

2) don't shoot 39% against no double-teams and constant clearouts[/INDENT]


[I]2015 is the easiest argument to make[/I]





[SIZE="1"][U][b]Playoffs Per Game[/b][/U]

[B]JORDAN 1991[/B]: 31.1 ppg... 6.4 rpg.. 8.4 apg.. 2.5 tov.. 2.4 spg.. 1.4 bpg.. 52.4 fg.. 60.0 ts.. 127 ORtg
[B]LEBRON 2015[/B]: 30.1 ppg.. 11.4 rpg.. 8.5 apg.. 4.1 tov.. 1.7 spg.. 1.1 bpg.. 41.7 fg.. 48.7 ts.. 105 ORtg[/SIZE]


[I][COLOR="blue"]Now let's take pace and playing time out of the equation and look at PER POSSESSION:[/COLOR][/I]


[SIZE="1"][U][b]Playoffs Per 100 Possessions[/b][/U]

[B]JORDAN 1991[/B]: 41.8 pts... 8.5 reb.. 11.2 ast.. 3.2 tov.. 3.2 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 52.4 fg.. 60.0 ts.. 127 ORtg
[B]LEBRON 2015[/B]: 37.7 pts.. 14.2 reb.. 10.6 ast.. 5.1 tov.. 2.1 stl.. 1.3 blk.. 41.7 fg.. 48.7 ts.. 105 ORtg[/SIZE]


Other than defensive rebounds, MJ was superior across the board in every single category.

MJ guarded Magic Johnson (top 5 all-time player who was runner-up for MVP in 1991) and thoroughly outplayed him on the biggest stage, while Lebron defended a role player and let him get FMVP.

MJ also had a massive efficiency advantage across the board (11 points in FG & TS, and 22 points in ORtg)... Of course, we know for a fact that Lebron's poor efficiency was due to his horrific midrange percentage (32%) and overall jumpshooting outside of 5 feet (29%).





[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]

Jordan had MORE help in his '87 first round series vs. Celtics ([B]Oakley averaged 20 ppg vs. Celtics[/B])

[/quote]
MJ had far less help - just look the rosters man-for-man.. The difference is that MJ elevated teammates like Oakley in the playoffs (14 ppg in RS to 20 ppg vs. Celtics), while Lebron doesn't - the story is [I]always[/I] how Lebron's teammates underperformed, yet again.. It's like clockwork..

At the higher level of competition (playoffs), Lebron's teams no longer get away with the poor chemistry fostered by his ball-dominant, playground style.. Otoh, MJ's sheer force of will and off-ball style is ideally-suited to elevate teammates once the competition kicks up a tier in the playoffs - MJ routinely elevated teammates, while Lebron doesn't.

The 1987 First Round is the perfect example of MJ's superior ability to get the most out of teammates.. The Celtics had a 119 ORtg in that series (nearly the same as Spurs 120 ORtg in 2014 Finals) - the Bulls couldn't stop the Celtics' experienced offense, so the only hope was to outscore them..

MJ did his best to keep the Bulls' offense in the game by using the incessant double-teams to enhance Oakley from a 14 ppg play-finisher (in RS) to a 20 ppg play-finisher vs. Celtics... Consequently, the Bulls had a 109 ORtg vs. the Celtics, which was enough to make each game competitive (losses of 4 pts, 11 pts, 9 pts).

If only Lebron had shown MJ's level of aggression in the 2014 Finals, so he could command the same double-teams and turn the talented Bosh into a superstar.. MJ surely would have, since he enhanced the far less-talented Oakley from a 14 ppg play-finisher into a 20 ppg play-finisher... [I]Btw, Lebron was blown away by 14 ppg in 2014 Finals with a far superior supporting cast (including 20 ppg blowouts the final three games), while MJ only lost by 8 ppg in his three games vs. Celtics, despite a monumentally worse cast.[/I]

This is an incredible feat, and it shows how MJ elevated the play-finishing Oakley, just like he molded Pippen into the player the Bulls needed, Kerr (who had been waived by Orlando before joining Bulls), Paxson (who was nothing before Jordan's presence made him a recognizable name), and on and on and on down the list.. Unlike Lebron, where the story is ALWAYS how his teammates underperformed, Jordans' teammates excelled and thrived alongside him.

[QUOTE=3ball][B]Here's Magic Johnson responding to Bob Costas on national television during halftime of a 1993 Finals game - the question was whether Magic's Lakers could've beaten Jordan's Bulls:[/B]

[INDENT][I][COLOR="DarkRed"]"We had more weapons.... Get me in foul trouble, and get Michael in foul trouble, and take us both out, and you'd see what would happen - we would dominate them."[/COLOR][/I]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=0m16s[/url][/INDENT]



[B]Then Costas asked Isiah to respond to Magic's assertion that the Bulls were beatable due to weaker supporting cast:[/B]

[INDENT][I][COLOR="Navy"]"When you're talking about this Bulls team, you're only talking about Michael Jordan.... You can't really say that our team would've beaten him or the Lakeers would've beat him, because no one has figured out how to stop this guy.. Sure, if you take Michael away, and you take Magic away, and you take me away, yeah, then our teams are better, but the fact is, he's still there (he hasn't been taken away)."[/COLOR][/I][/INDENT]



[B]Later in the interview, Costas [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=5m00s]asked[/url] Magic if he thought MJ was the best ever[/B]:

[INDENT][COLOR="DarkRed"]"[I]I think so. I think he's not only the best basketball player, but probably the greatest athlete that has played any sport.. We can only dream of doing the things he can do, that being me and Isiah.[/I]"[/COLOR][/INDENT]



^^^ This was all during the 1993 Finals.. MJ was considered the best ever before he even won 3 championships - [U]that's how dominant he was[/U].. Young kids have a hard time accepting this 20 years after the fact.. But the dominance of today's player doesn't compare, and this is reflected in the stats (for those who never saw him play).[/QUOTE]

MJ is the Goat but comments from a current player are not such a great indication as you think.

1. Players are players...not scouts or gms or coaches...being a great player says nothing about your ability to analyze the game (MJ picked some terrible players with Washington's high draft picks)

2. Current players may have biases for or against other players, and can be biased for their era vs past eras (MJ himself does this)

3. The guy might just be trying to make himself look like a cool and humble dude in front of millions (KD does this currently...Lebron used to do it)

4. They'll get wrapped up in the moment and just try to make their comment front page newsworthy (just look at all the comments about Kobe from other players right after he decided to make this year his last year)

The second 3 peat Bulls teams would probably win 75 games every year now. Anyone that thinks those teams were not stacked like crazy is freaking insane.

[QUOTE=Euroleague]

The second 3 peat Bulls teams would probably win 75 games every year now. Anyone that thinks those teams were not stacked like crazy is freaking insane.

[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="Red"][size="4"]1996 Bulls weren't stacked, but Celtics and Lakers were:[/size][/COLOR]


.
[COLOR="White"]..............................[/COLOR][B]Playoff PPG[/B]


[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] [U]96' Bulls[/U][COLOR="White"]...............[/COLOR] [U]86' Celtics[/U][COLOR="White"]...............[/COLOR][U]87' Lakers[/U]

Jordan[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 30.7[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Bird[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] 25.8[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Worthy[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 23.6
Pippen[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 16.9[COLOR="white"]........[/COLOR] McHale[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 24.9[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Magic[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] 21.8
Kukoc[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 10.8[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] DJ[COLOR="White"]..........[/COLOR] 16.2[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Kareem[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 19.2
Longley[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 8.4[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Ainge[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 15.6[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] B Scott[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 14.8
Harper[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 8.8[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Parish[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 15.0[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] M Cooper[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 13.0
Rodman[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 7.5[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Walton[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 7.9[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] AC Green[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 11.5
S Kerr[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 6.8[COLOR="White"].......[/COLOR] Sichting[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 3.2[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Thompson[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 8.8


[I]There's no comparison - the 1996 Bulls were a top-heavy team where MJ scored nearly TWICE as much as his 2nd option and 30% of his team's points..

Btw, if I added columns for 1991-1993, or 1997 and 1998 (when Scottie and Rodman were straight AIDS), it looks absolutely ridiculous...

MJ had the least help ever, of anyone he's compared to - just compare ANY of his rosters in the above fashion to any of his peers' championship teams.. There's a reason he had to score more than anyone, while still doing everything else - it's because he had the LEAST help, not the most.[/I]

[QUOTE=3ball][COLOR="Red"][size="6"][B][I][U][COLOR="Black"]1996 Bulls weren't stacked[/COLOR][/U][/I][/B], but Celtics and Lakers were:[/size][/COLOR]


.
[COLOR="White"]..............................[/COLOR][B]Playoff PPG[/B]


[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] [U]96' Bulls[/U][COLOR="White"]...............[/COLOR] [U]86' Celtics[/U][COLOR="White"]...............[/COLOR][U]87' Lakers[/U]

Jordan[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 30.7[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Bird[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] 25.8[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Worthy[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 23.6
Pippen[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 16.9[COLOR="white"]........[/COLOR] McHale[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 24.9[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Magic[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] 21.8
Kukoc[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 10.8[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] DJ[COLOR="White"]..........[/COLOR] 16.2[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Kareem[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 19.2
Longley[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 8.4[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Ainge[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 15.6[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] B Scott[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 14.8
Harper[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 8.8[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Parish[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 15.0[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] M Cooper[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 13.0
Rodman[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 7.5[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Walton[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 7.9[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] AC Green[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 11.5
S Kerr[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 6.8[COLOR="White"].......[/COLOR] Sichting[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 3.2[COLOR="White"]........[/COLOR] Thompson[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 8.8


[I]There's no comparison - the 1996 Bulls were a top-heavy team where MJ scored nearly TWICE as much as his 2nd option and 30% of his team's points..

Btw, if I added columns for 1991-1993, or 1997 and 1998 (when Scottie and Rodman were straight AIDS), it looks absolutely ridiculous...
[B]
MJ had the least help ever, of anyone he's compared to - just compare ANY of his rosters in the above fashion to any of his peers' championship teams.. There's a reason he had to score more than anyone, while still doing everything else - it's because he had the LEAST help, not the most[/B].[/I][/QUOTE]

[IMG]https://media3.giphy.com/media/SEp6Zq6ZkzUNW/200.gif[/IMG]

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[B]Pippen wasn't THAT easily replaced, but he was a worse 2nd option and replaceable by all these guys:[/B]


Shaq (2005 and 2006)
Magic (1979)
Kareem (nearly every year)
McHale (nearly every year)
Kobe (nearly every year)
Duncan (since 2008)
Durant or Westbrook (every year)
Lebron (2011)
Wade (2012)
Penny (1995 and 1996)
David Robinson or Duncan (1998)
Stockton (every year)
[url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12000670&postcount=12]Shawn Kemp[/url] (1996 - look it up - RS, PO and Finals - not close at all)
Drexler (1995)
Gasol (2009 and 2010)


[B]Even if you disagree with 1 or 2 here and there - most of them are valid - Pippen simply [I]wasn't a top 10 second option[/I].. [/B]

But I will concede that there were far more [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=393882]3rd options[/url] better than Horace (nearly half the league's 3rd options were better), and ditto for 4th options - there were a super ton of [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=393894]4th options[/url] better than BJ Armstrong (i.e. Byron Scott/Michael Cooper/AC Green... Ray Allen... Dennis Johnson... Manu or Kawhi).

The reason MJ still won 6 rings despite having a 2nd option that wasn't top 10, and 3rd/4th options that were pedestrian, is because Jordan scored a higher proportion of his team's points than anyone ever has, including at least 10 ppg more than Pippen in every playoff series of their CAREERS (except two, when MJ scored 8 ppg and 5 ppg more).. He also scored [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=392376]50%[/url] of his team's 4th quarter points in playoffs and Finals (while he was on the floor).

In addition to his goat scoring and clutch, MJ also led his team in passing by assisting on the highest proportion of teammate FG's (MJ led his team in assist percentage [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49]for both 3-peats[/url])..

[COLOR="darkred"]No other player in history was required to score 10 more ppg than their 2nd option for every playoff series of their careers, AND lead the team in passing.[/COLOR]

[QUOTE=Euroleague]

[IMG]https://media3.giphy.com/media/SEp6Zq6ZkzUNW/200.gif[/IMG]

[/QUOTE]

Show me where a player was required to:


1) score at least 10 more ppg than his 2nd option for every playoff series of his career (except two, where MJ scored 8 ppg and 5 ppg more)

2) lead his team in passing by assisting on the highest proportion of teammate FG's (MJ led his team in assist percentage [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49]for both 3-peats[/url])

3) AND play goat-level defense.


I'll wait.
.

[QUOTE=feyki]:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

This all you can do when it comes to MJ stans.

[QUOTE=3ball][SIZE="3"][I]You're saying Pippen's contribution compared to MJ's??.... :yaohappy:

[COLOR="darkred"]Jordan scored at least 10 ppg more than Pippen in EVERY playoffs series, except two, when he averaged 5 ppg and 8 ppg more.
[/COLOR]
In addition to scoring literally 50-300% more than Pippen in every playoff series, Jordan assisted on a higher proportion of teammate field goals - he led the team in assist %:[/I][/SIZE]


[B]Assist Percentage 1991-1993 Playoffs:[/B]

Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]


[B]Assist Percentage 1996-1998 Playoffs:[/B]

Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]


[SIZE="3"][I]So MJ scored 50-300% more than Pippen, while leading the team in passing and playing GOAT defense... MJ carried the biggest load of all time.. No one else is close[/I][/SIZE]



It doesn't matter that you overrate Jordan's cast - regardless of how much you overrate Jordan's cast, his cast was worse than anyone he's compared to.

[B]Let's compare MJ's teammates to Magic's, Kareem's, Bird's, Duncan's, Lebron's, Kobe's - YOU NAME IT - his cast simply had far less talent than these guys...[/B]

This is easily proven by counting each player's [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11988792&postcount=121]all-star teammates[/url] and comparing results achieved with said teammates.[/QUOTE]

And let's compare competition to what Magic and Bird faced, as well. Give me the list of teams that MJ facerd that had anywhere near the talent of the 80's Lakers and Celtics. Or the talent of the Moses-led Sixers. Or the talent of the prime Bad Boys (and not the shell of what they were in '91)?

Again, the 90's were so watered down that a '94 Bulls team was a TRUE TITLE CONTENDER...withOUT Jordan.

And then, with Jordan, they STILL couldn't win in '95. So what did they do next? They added HOFer Rodman!

BY FAR the most talented teams in the league.

And we saw what an injury-riddled '94 Bulls team could do...without Jordan.

So, let's remove the best player from every team in that decade, including MJ, and how many titles do the 90's Bulls win???? I would argue easily six. How many titles would the Rockets have won without Hakeem? The Sonics without Payton? The Suns without Barkley? The Jazz without Karl?

That is CONTEXT my friend.

Euroleague and 3ball going at it :lol


[IMG]https://49.media.tumblr.com/f8d306007614d5c2bdddd86fdfbc94e0/tumblr_nna5xeJO681t9sksvo1_400.gif[/IMG]

.
[COLOR="Red"][SIZE="4"]Proof that Jordan would've won 2007 Finals:[/SIZE][/COLOR]


[I][SIZE="2"]Game 1 was an eight point game in 4th quarter, despite only 10 points on 5-15 from Lebron.. Games 3 and 4 were nail-biters, despite Lebron's 25 points on 39% and 24 points on 33%, respectively.

Now if Jordan shoots 15-25 percentage points better from the field, [COLOR="Navy"]like all these guys did against the same Spurs team[/COLOR], the Cavs win all three of those games:[/SIZE][/I]


[B][I]Melo vs. Spurs in 2007 1st Rd[/I]: [COLOR="Red"]27 ppg on 48%[/COLOR]

[I]Dirk vs. Spurs in 2007[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] WCF[/I]: [COLOR="Red"]27 ppg on 53%[/COLOR]

[I]Bonzi vs. Spurs in 2006 1st Rd[/I]: [COLOR="Red"]23/12 on 61%[/COLOR]

[I]Kobe vs. Spurs in 2008[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] WCF[/I]: [COLOR="Red"]29 ppg on 53%[/COLOR]

[I][COLOR="Navy"]Lebron vs. Spurs in 2007 Finals:[/COLOR][/I][COLOR="blue"] 22 ppg on 35%[/COLOR][/B]



[I][SIZE="2"]Lebron shot 65.4% at the rim (40% of offense), so his lower overall efficiency compared to his peers was due SPECIFICALLY to his jumpshooting efficiency:[/SIZE][/I]


[COLOR="White"].................................[/COLOR][SIZE="2"][B]Jumpshot Efficiency vs. Spurs in 2006-2008 Playoffs
[/B]

[COLOR="White"]....................... [/COLOR]midrange jumpshot FG%[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 3-point jumpshot FG%[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] Jumpshot proportion of offense

[url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/1719/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=1]Bonzi 2006 1st Rd[/url] ..............50.0........................... 62.5............................... 32.2
[url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/1717/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=3]Dirk 2006 WCF[/url] ..................41.3........................... 50.0 .............................. 61.2
[url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2546/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=1]Melo 2007 1st Rd[/url] ...............37.5........................... 50.0 .............................. 59.1
[url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/shooting/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=3]Kobe 2008 WCF[/url] .................50.0........................... 33.3............................... 63.3
[url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]Lebron 2007 Finals[/url] .............[I][COLOR="red"]14.8........................... 20.0............................... 52.2[/COLOR][/I]
[/SIZE]


[size="2"][I]

Since jumpshot efficiency was the key to good overall efficiency against the Spurs, MJ would've had great efficiency, since he was a better midrange shooter than all these guys and frequently relied on his jumpshot to have big games.

Clearly, the Spurs' jumpshooting defense wasn't prohibitive, since everyone shot well on jumpshots, EXCEPT Lebron - Lebron simply can't shoot..[/i][/size]
.

[QUOTE=3ball]Essentially, no one in history has led their team in scoring BY THAT MUCH, while also leading them [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49]in passing[/url], and playing goat defense.

Only MJ did this.. :pimp:[/QUOTE]

Wilt routinely led his teams in scoring, rebounding, FG%, and often in passing...all while playing THE GOAT defense.

Unfortunately for him, his teams were vastly over-matched in those years by Celtic teams with FIVE to NINE HOFers.

And when he finally had a supporting cast that was the equal of Russell's, and healthy, they destroyed the "Dynasty"...all with Chamberlain dominating in every facet of the game.

TEAM game. When Jordan was surrounded with 55+ win rosters, and facing teams with less talent....yes, he won six rings.

3ball you have to realize what a loser you are if freaking Euroleague just dissmises you with a simple gif and doesn't even bother responding :roll:

[QUOTE=3ball]Show me where a player was required to:


1) score at least 10 more ppg than his 2nd option for every playoff series (except two, where MJ scored 8 ppg and 5 ppg more)

2) lead his team in passing by assisting on the highest proportion of teammate FG's (MJ led his team in assist percentage [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49]for both 3-peats[/url])

3) AND play goat-level defense.


I'll wait.[/QUOTE]

You are in for a long ass wait.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS][B]And yet, in the '91 ECF's, when MJ once again had his numbers decline[/B], but this time against a Piston team that was a shell of what they had been the three previous seasons...it was Pippen and Grant coming up huge![/QUOTE]

1) I can't believe I just read this. Before you write another sentence, you should go back and watch these game again. Games 3 and 4 especially is some of the most dominant basketball that's ever been played. I know you've been watching Basketball-Reference.com but I still can't figure how you can make that statement because even there, aside from Game 1, his numbers look [I]good[/I].

2) What do you mean by "once again"?

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]1) I can't believe I just read this. Before you write another sentence, you should go back and watch these game again. Games 3 and 4 especially is some of the most dominant basketball that's ever been played. I know you've been watching Basketball-Reference.com but I still can't figure how you can make that statement because even there, aside from Game 1, his numbers look [I]good[/I].

2) What do you mean by "once again"?[/QUOTE]

His scoring and efficiency declined against the prime Bad Boys from '88 thru '90. In '91, he finally had a normal efficiency, but again, his scoring declined ..albeit, slightly.

Same with Shaq against the Robinson led Spurs from '99 thru '02. And Kareem's fell off the cliff against Wilt and Thurmond in the early 70's.

That's why I find it laughable whenever some idiot brings up Wilt's ":decline" in the post-season (and really, only his scoring). Chamberlain faced the Russell-led Celtics EIGHT times; the Thurmond-led Warriors THREE times; the Reed-led Knicks FOUR times; and the Kareem led Bucks TWICE. Hell, he seldom had the luxury of first round cannon-fodder, or post-seasons with 3-4 playoff series.

Think about this...Russell basically beefed up his entire post-season numbers in FIVE series against the Lakers (he faced them six times BTW, and in the one in which he faced WILT, he did virtually nothing.)

And yet, Chamberlain never faced the Lakers at all in his entire post-season career. And he put up staggering numbers against them in his regular season H2H's (in seasons of between 8-12 games against them.) Safe-to-say, that had Wilt faced them FIVE times in his prime, and he likely would hold virtually every post-season scoring record.


In any case, we saw what MJ did with poor-to-average rosters. Nothing. Struggled to win a damn game. Meanwhile Wuilt was taking essentially last place rosters to within and eyelash of beating the greatest dynasty in NBA history. And we all know what happened when he FINALLY had an equal roster (that was healthy.)

MJ took good-to-great supporting casts, in a weaker 90's, to six titles. Not knocking him, per se, but those that somehow believe he was a miracle worker didn't actually see him play, either. The man did not walk on water.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]

'94 Bulls team was a [B][COLOR="Red"]TRUE TITLE CONTENDER[/COLOR][/B]

[/quote]
The Bulls were a 2nd Round team in 1994 (that almost got swept if not for Kukoc walk-off miracle).

3-peat chemistry will get ANY team to the 2nd Round with marginal talent - and that's exactly what happened in 1994.

Furthermore, the Bulls weren't going to rebound from their 2nd Round defeat and do better the next year - they were a 2nd Round team PERMANENTLY without Jordan, after being a 3-peat dynasty with him.

Obviously, the gap between permanent 2nd Round team and 3-peat dynasty is utterly massive.


[quote=Euroleague]

How many titles would the Rockets have won without Hakeem? The Sonics without Payton? The Suns without Barkley? The Jazz without Karl?

[/QUOTE]
All of these teams had superior talent after their #1 option... But none of these teams had 3-peat chemistry and teamwork.

And that's the difference.. Because we already know that the Bulls needed MJ to be the best scorer ever and score 10 ppg more than his 2nd option for every playoff series.

So when the Bulls made the 2nd Round in 1994, it wasn't because they had talented scorers - it was due to the 3-peat caliber of chemistry, mental ability and teamwork from 3-peating with MJ.
.

[QUOTE=3ball]T[B]he Bulls were a 2nd Round team in 1994 (that almost got swept if not for Kukoc walk-off miracle).

3-peat chemistry will get ANY team to the 2nd Round with marginal talent - and that's exactly what happened in 1994.[/B]

Furthermore, the Bulls weren't going to rebound from their 2nd Round defeat and do better the next year - they were a 2nd Round team PERMANENTLY without Jordan, after being a 3-peat dynasty with him.

If we were to measure the gap between permanent 2nd Round team and 3-peat dynasty with our arms, we can't spread our arms wide enough.. It's a massive gap.



All of these teams had superior talent after their #1 option... But none of these teams had 3-peat chemistry and teamwork.

And that's the difference - the Bulls needed MJ to be the best scorer ever and score 10 ppg more than his 2nd option for every playoff series.

So when the Bull made the 2nd Round in 1994, it wasn't because they had talented scorers - it was due to the 3-peat caliber of chemistry, mental ability and teamwork from 3-peating with MJ.[/QUOTE]

You are obviouslky referring to the '95 Bulls, who were brutalized in the ECSF's by a team that would get swept by another 47-35 team in the Finals.

In the '94 ECSF's, the Bulls were a play away from winning that series in six games. Furthermore, had they been healthy during the regular season, they likely would have won considerably more games than their actual 55. In fact, had Pippen and Grant not missed a combined 22 games, they likely would have easily won 60+.

Which would have been HUGE. Because, as we all know, they went 3-0 against the 56-26 Knicks at HOME in the ECSF's. And lost a close game seven, to a NY team that would lose a close game seven to the 58-24 Rockets in the Finals. Oh, and the Bulls outscored the Knicks in their series, and the Knicks outscored the Rockets in their's.

A TRUE TITLE-CONTENDING TEAM.

That interview was done in 2003, soon after the zone rules were introduced, [B]BUT BEFORE 2005[/B], when defensive 3 seconds and hand-check ban were introduced..

After the hand-check ban and defensive 3 seconds was introduced in 2005 - McGrady, Kobe, Garnett, Ron Artest, Shaq and others have all said the game is "[I]soft[/I]" and it isn't a "[I]man's game[/I]" anymore - Kobe flat-out said that [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY3ezX73M1I]today's defenses are weak[/url]..

When the zone was first introduced in 2001, Jordan made similar comments about how the zone was bad... But just like the other guys mentioned previously, Jordan ALSO changed his tune after the new defensive 3 seconds rule and hand-check ban were introduced in 2005... He said he [url=http://uproxx.com/dimemag/michael-jordan-if-i-played-today-i-could-have-scored-100-points/]would score 100[/url] under the new 2005 rules.

Those guys all thought the zone was bad for offensive players, until the zone was busted by defensive 3 seconds, and of course the hand-check ban - these are the facts.



Lebron's most damning stat is his abnormally-high time of possession - the top 50 players in time of possession are all point guards, [urlexcept Lebron and Harden.

Lebron's abnormally high time of possession from the forward position means that he adds a 2nd high time of possession player IN ADDITION TO THE EXISTING POINT GUARD.. This means his teammates have less time with the ball than other teams, whose forwards have a normal time of possession for forwards.

Also, starting fives normally have only 1 ball-dominant, low-assisted player that teammates rarely throw assists to - the point guard.. But Lebron's point guard style from the forward position adds a 2nd low-assisted player that teammates can't throw assists to - he turns a normally high assisted forward position into a low assisted one, which lowers the assist capacity of the team relative to other teams whose forwards are highly-assisted.

[QUOTE=3ball]Nope - I'm referring to the 1994 Bulls, who were a 2nd Round team in 1994 (that almost got swept if not for Kukoc walk-off miracle).

3-peat chemistry will get ANY team to the 2nd Round with marginal talent - and that's exactly what happened in 1994.

Furthermore, the Bulls weren't going to rebound from their 2nd Round defeat and do better the next year - t[B]hey were a 2nd Round team PERMANENTLY[/B] without Jordan, after being a 3-peat dynasty with him.

Obviously, the gap between permanent 2nd Round team and 3-peat dynasty is utterly massive.[/QUOTE]

I say that they might have been a permanent second round team WITH Jordan.

It took the signing of HOFer Rodman to get them over the hump. MJ couldn't win without an OUTSTANDING PF (like Grant and Rodman.)

Clearly, their team chemistry was better with Pippen-Grant, than Pippen-MJ.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]His scoring and efficiency declined against the prime Bad Boys from '88 thru '90. In '91, he finally had a normal efficiency, but again, his scoring declined ..albeit, slightly.

Same with Shaq against the Robinson led Spurs from '99 thru '02. And Kareem's fell off the cliff against Wilt and Thurmond in the early 70's.

That's why I find it laughable whenever some idiot brings up Wilt's ":decline" in the post-season (and really, only his scoring). Chamberlain faced the Russell-led Celtics EIGHT times; the Thurmond-led Warriors THREE times; the Reed-led Knicks FOUR times; and the Kareem led Bucks TWICE. Hell, he seldom had the luxury of first round cannon-fodder, or post-seasons with 3-4 playoff series.

Think about this...Russell basically beefed up his entire post-season numbers in FIVE series against the Lakers (he faced them six times BTW, and in the one in which he faced WILT, he did virtually nothing.)

And yet, Chamberlain never faced the Lakers at all in his entire post-season career. And he put up staggering numbers against them in his regular season H2H's (in seasons of between 8-12 games against them.) Safe-to-say, that had Wilt faced them FIVE times in his prime, and he likely would hold virtually every post-season scoring record.


In any case, we saw what MJ did with poor-to-average rosters. Nothing. Struggled to win a damn game. Meanwhile Wuilt was taking essentially last place rosters to within and eyelash of beating the greatest dynasty in NBA history. And we all know what happened when he FINALLY had an equal roster (that was healthy.)

MJ took good-to-great supporting casts, in a weaker 90's, to six titles. Not knocking him, per se, but those that somehow believe he was a miracle worker didn't actually see him play, either. The man did not walk on water.[/QUOTE]
Huh he averged 30 pppg on 53%. What in the actual **** are you talking about? Are you saying because his ppg dropped by 2, but stayed at the same efficiency 53% he had a bad series.:roll:

Wilt scoring plummeted. It didn't go down 1-3 ppg bro. It was way more. Wilt Choked with HCA many times and idc about your list of excuses

[QUOTE=3ball]Nope - I'm referring to the 1994 Bulls, who were a 2nd Round team in 1994 (that almost got swept if not for [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7SbG-8Bvgk&t=0m10s]Kukoc's walk-off miracle[/url]).

3-peat chemistry will get ANY team to the 2nd Round with marginal talent - and that's exactly what happened in 1994.

[I]Furthermore, the Bulls weren't going to rebound from their 2nd Round defeat and do better the next year - they were a 2nd Round team PERMANENTLY without Jordan, after being a 3-peat dynasty with him.
[/I]
Obviously, the gap between permanent 2nd Round team and 3-peat dynasty is utterly massive.[/QUOTE]
They are a first round team imo. If the cavs were healthy they wouldn't of even made it that far.

[QUOTE=juju151111]Huh he averged 30 pppg on 53%. What in the actual **** are you talking about? Are you saying because his ppg dropped by 2, but stayed at the same efficiency 53% he had a bad series.:roll:

Wilt scoring plummeted. It didn't go down 1-3 ppg bro. It was way more. Wilt Choked with HCA many times and idc about your list of excuses[/QUOTE]

Jordan's numbers dropped CONSIDERABLY against the PRIME Bad Boys from '88 thru '90. And were a slight decline against a shell of what they had been in '91.

And had a prime Wilt feasted on losing teams in the first round, and average teams in the second round, like so many of the GOATs did after the 60's, his numbers would have been DRAMATICALLY higher (his scoring...after all, his rebounding was off-the-charts in the post-season, and his FG% efficiency was actually higher in his six Finals.)

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]His scoring and efficiency declined against the prime Bad Boys from '88 thru '90. In '91, he finally had a normal efficiency, but again, his scoring declined ..albeit, slightly.[/QUOTE]

You don't know what you are talking about. I know it's foolish to expect anyone on ISH to admit it, but you don't know what you are talking about.

You looked at some numbers and fed it into your overall agenda but whatever numbers you looked at lied to you. MJ DOMINATED the Pistons in 1991. He didn't average 40 against them because he didn't have to. Games 3 and 4 are two of the best games you'll never see rerun on NBA TV.

And where are you getting your numbers from anyway? You're not even watching basketball-reference.com

Here are MJ's numbers against the Pistons from 88-91

1988: 27.4, 8.8, 4.6, 2.0, 0.6 49%
1989: 29.4, 5.5, 6.5, 2.0, 0.5 46%
1990: 32.1, 7.1, 6.3, 2.1, 0.6 47%
1991: 29.8, 5.3, 7.0, 2.3, 1.8 54%

Where did his scoring decline? It consistently went UP from 88 - 90. And his efficiency is about what you'd expect against a great defense team when you have to score more. 27.4 on 49% is not better than 29.4 on 46% because it's harder to score a full 2 more points per game and maintain the same efficiency. I would argue 1990's 32.1 on 47% is better than any year outside 1991. That's a full 5 ppg higher than 1988's scoring avg and it was done in a longer series (7 vs 5).

[QUOTE=juju151111]Huh he averged 30 pppg on 53%. What in the actual **** are you talking about? Are you saying because his ppg dropped by 2, but stayed at the same efficiency 53% he had a bad series.:roll:

Wilt scoring plummeted. It didn't go down 1-3 ppg bro. It was way more. Wilt Choked with HCA many times and idc about your list of excuses[/QUOTE]

How about this...

[QUOTE]Psileas actually pointed this fact out long ago, but it is certainly worth repeating...

had Wilt been fortunate enough to have faced the Lakers in the post-season, from '60 thru '68, and he likely would own many playoff (or perhaps Finals) scoring records. And we are not talking about one or two "small samples" either, but rather, his entire H2H play against LA (and Minny) from '60 thru '68...and in seasons of between 7 to 12 H2H games.

Keep in mind that Russell WAS fortunate enough to have faced the Lakers FIVE times in the post-season in that span (actually six, but in the last one, he faced Wilt, and as expected, did absolutely nothing offensively), and it was against LA in which he elevated his playoff scoring and FG%. In fact, remove the Lakers from his post-seasons, and his offensive production would have dropped considerably.

Here were Russell's numbers against LA in those five series:

'62:

Russell averaged 18.9 ppg on a .457 FG% in his regular season against the NBA.

Against LA in the Finals: 22.9 ppg on a .543 FG%. Which included a game seven of 30 points and 40 rebounds.

BTW, against Wilt in the '62 EDF's: 22.0 ppg on a .399 FG%


'63:

Russell averaged 16.8 ppg on a .432 FG% in his regular season.

Against LA in the Finals: 20 ppg on a .467 FG%


'65:

Russell averaged 14.1 ppg on a .438 FG% against the NBA.

Against LA in the Finals: 17.8 ppg on a .702 FG% (yes, .702.)

BTW, against Wilt in the EDF's: 15.6 ppg on a .447 FG%


'66:

Russell averaged 12.9 ppg on a .415 FG% against the NBA.

Against LA in the Finals: 23.6 ppg on a .538 FG%

BTW, against Wilt in the EDF's: 14.0 ppg on a .423 FG%


'68:

Russell averaged 12.5 ppg on a .425 FG% against the NBA

Against LA in the Finals: 17.3 ppg on a .430 FG%

BTW, against Wilt in the EDF's: 13.7 ppg on a .440 FG%


Oh, and here were Russell's stats in the '69 Finals against Wilt:

Regular season against the NBA: 9.9 ppg on a .433 FG%

Against Wilt in the Finals: 9.0 ppg on a .397 FG%[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Again, had Wilt faced the Lakers in any of his nine seasons in the league from '60 thru '68, and he likely would own at least some, (if not a vast majority), playoff and perhaps Finals, scoring records (and perhaps FG% records, as well, since Russell shot .702 against LA in '65.)

And once again, in Wilt's regular seasons, he was facing LA between 7 to 12 games in each season, with an average of about 10.

Also keep in mind that the Lakers were in the Western Conference, and Wilt only had two seasons in the Western Conference from '60 thru '68, and in one of those, his team was so bad, that he didn't make the playoffs, despite a 44.8 ppg season on .528 shooting.


Ok, here we go:

'59-60:

Against the entire NBA that season: 37.6 ppg on a .461 FG%

Against the Lakers in 9 H2H's: 36.8 ppg on a .430 FG%

High games of 41, 41, 41, 45, and 52.


'60-61:

Against the entire NBA: 38.4 ppg on a .509 FG%

Against the Lakers in 10 H2H's: 40.1 ppg on a .506 FG%

High games were 41, 41, 43, 44, 46, and 56 points.


'61-62:

Against the entire NBA: 50.4 ppg on a .506 FG%

Against LA in 9 H2H games: 51.6 ppg on a .503 FG%

High games of 48, 56, 57, 60, 60, and 78 (with 43 rebounds.)


'62-63: Against the entire NBA: 44.8 ppg on a .528 FG%

Against LA in 12 H2Hs: 48.6 ppg on a .541 FG%

High games of 40, 40, 42, 53, 63, and 72 points.


'63-64: Against the entire NBA: 36.9 ppg on a .524 FG%

Against LA in 12 H2Hs: 44.3 ppg on a .484 FG%

High games of 40, 41, 47, 49, 50, 55, and 59 points.


'64-65: Against the entire NBA: 34.7 ppg on a .510 FG%

Against LA in 8 H2Hs: 29.9 ppg on a .476 FG%

High games of 40, 40, and 41 points.


'65-66: Against the entire NBA: 33.5 ppg on a .540 FG%

Against LA in 10 H2Hs: 40.8 ppg on a .559 FG%

High games of 42, 49, 53, and 65 points.


'66-67: Against the entire NBA: 24.1 ppg on a .683 FG%

Against LA in 9 H2Hs: 26.4 ppg on a .759 FG%

High games of 32, 37, and 39 points.


'67-68: Against the entire NBA: 24.3 ppg on a .595 FG%

Against LA in 7 H2Hs: 28.1 ppg on a .638 FG%

High games of 31, 32, 35, and 53 points.


Overall, in those 86 games:

40 Point Games: 42

50 Point Games: 19

60 Point Games: 7

70 Point Games: 2

High game of 78 points.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=game3524]This all you can do when it comes to MJ stans.[/QUOTE]

Exactly :D .

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]You don't know what you are talking about. I know it's foolish to expect anyone on ISH to admit it, but you don't know what you are talking about.

You looked at some numbers and fed it into your overall agenda but whatever numbers you looked at lied to you. MJ DOMINATED the Pistons in 1991. He didn't average 40 against them because he didn't have to. Games 3 and 4 are two of the best games you'll never see rerun on NBA TV.

And where are you getting your numbers from anyway? You're not even watching basketball-reference.com

Here are MJ's numbers against the Pistons from 88-91

1988: 27.4, 8.8, 4.6, 2.0, 0.6 49%
1989: 29.4, 5.5, 6.5, 2.0, 0.5 46%
1990: 32.1, 7.1, 6.3, 2.1, 0.6 47%
1991: 29.8, 5.3, 7.0, 2.3, 1.8 54%

Where did his scoring decline? It consistently went UP from 88 - 90. And his efficiency is about what you'd expect against a great defense team when you have to score more. 27.4 on 49% is not better than 29.4 on 46% because it's harder to score a full 2 more points per game and maintain the same efficiency. I would argue 1990's 32.1 on 47% is better than any year outside 1991. That's a full 5 ppg higher than 1988's scoring avg and it was done in a longer series (7 vs 5).[/QUOTE]

Now post Jordan's regular season numbers against the NBA.

In fact, I will do it for you.

'88: 35.0 ppg on a .535 FG%.
'89: 32.5 ppg on a .538 FG%.
'90: 33.6 ppg on a .526 FG%.

'91: 31.5 ppg on a .535.

I agreed basically agreed with you in '91. BUT, that was a rapidly declining Piston team, and not the PRIME Bad Boys from '88 thru '90.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Now post Jordan's regular season numbers against the NBA.

In fact, I will do it for you.

'88: 35.0 ppg on a .535 FG%.
'89: 32.5 ppg on a .538 FG%.
'90: 33.6 ppg on a .526 FG%.

'91: 31.5 ppg on a .535.

I agreed basically agreed with you in '91. BUT, that was a rapidly declining Piston team, and not the PRIME Bad Boys from '88 thru '90.[/QUOTE]

WHA? :biggums:

Is it that hard to admit you were talking out your ass? Or at least do what most do and disappear until another point can be argued? Now you're talking about his averages in the regular season against the rest of the NBA???

It's not hard. "I WAS TALKING OUT OF MY ASS AND I DIDN'T EVEN DO MYSELF THE COURTESY OF WATCHING BR.COM LIKE I USUALLY DO. Even when I was called out on it, I chose not to actually look up the numbers to back up what I said."

Not hard.

Btw, his numbers were GREAT against the best defensive team in the NBA (and world champions) in a seven game series where he has to adjust to their game plan every other day. :facepalm

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Jordan's numbers dropped CONSIDERABLY against the PRIME Bad Boys from '88 thru '90. And were a slight decline against a shell of what they had been in '91.

And had a prime Wilt feasted on losing teams in the first round, and average teams in the second round, like so many of the GOATs did after the 60's, his numbers would have been DRAMATICALLY higher (his scoring...after all, his rebounding was off-the-charts in the post-season, and his FG% efficiency was actually higher in his six Finals.)[/QUOTE]
They were not decline in 91. They made it to the ecf and wasn't no shell. They were in their 20s still. They were injured before the season end and came back. The bulls just got better. They couldn't bully Pippen soft ass anymore. Lol Wilt scoring plummeted and he choked away homecourt advantage. Mj dropped 50 points twice on bad boys and they had to make their rules to stop him. He averged 30 ppg against them in the Postseason

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]I agreed basically agreed with you in '91. BUT, that was a rapidly declining Piston team, and not the PRIME Bad Boys from '88 thru '90.[/QUOTE]

Four questions...

[B]1. Who was more at a disadvantage, the 83 Lakers against the Sixers or the 91 Pistons against the Bulls?[/B] ([url]http://articles.latimes.com/1987-06-06/sports/sp-4964_1_pat-riley[/url])

[I]Item: Laker forward James Worthy, in the last week of the regular season in '83, broke his left shinbone and missed the playoffs.

Item: Laker guard Norm Nixon separated his left shoulder in the first game of the finals.

Item: Laker forward Bob McAdoo tore a hamstring in the sixth and deciding game of the Western Conference championship series against San Antonio and was severely handicapped by it in the finals.[/I]


[B]2. Who was more at a disadvantage, the 87 Celtics against the Lakers or the 91 Pistons against the Bulls?[/B] ([url]http://boston.sportsthenandnow.com/2011/06/09/the-guts-and-spirit-of-the-1987-celtics/[/url])

[I]The Celtics were entering this decisive point of the season beat up. Bill Walton, whose play backing up Robert Parish had been so vital to the ’86 title run, had been injured most of the year. Kevin McHale and Robert Parish were both battling serious foot injuries, and it would be almost painful to watch them suit up each game as the postseason progressed and wondering how they could move and pivot without excruciating pain. Danny Ainge was also fighting nagging injuries. The bench was weak, so there was little help for the injured and Larry Bird and Dennis Johnson, the two healthy starters had more of a burden placed on them.[/I]

[B]3. Who was more at a disadvantage, 89 Lakers against the Pistons or the 91 Pistons against the Bulls?[/B] ([url]http://www.realclearsports.com/lists/devastating_playoff_injuries/magic_johnson.html?state=stop[/url])

[I]They swept Portland, Seattle and then the upstart Suns in the conference finals, going an unprecedented 11-0 to reach their third straight NBA Finals.

Disaster, however, struck before they even played their first game in the Palace of Auburn Hills in a Finals rematch against the Detroit Pistons. Byron Scott severely pulled his hamstring during practice before Game 1 and would be out of the Finals. The short-handed Lakers lost their first playoff game in the series opener, but seemed to have regained their footing in Game 2, taking a double-digit lead late in the third quarter.

This was when the curtains fell on the Lakers dynasty and their Three-peat dreams. Magic Johnson, the reigning league MVP, also pulled his hamstring in the closing minutes of the period and had to leave the game.[/I]

[B]4. What makes the 91 Pistons a less worthy opponent than these other guys?[/B]

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]WHA? :biggums:

Is it that hard to admit you were talking out your ass? Or at least do what most do and disappear until another point can be argued? Now you're talking about his averages in the regular season against the rest of the NBA???

It's not hard. "I WAS TALKING OUT OF MY ASS AND I DIDN'T EVEN DO MYSELF THE COURTESY OF WATCHING BR.COM LIKE I USUALLY DO. Even when I was called out on it, I chose not to actually look up the numbers to back up what I said."

Not hard.

Btw, his numbers were GREAT against the best defensive team in the NBA (and world champions) in a seven game series where he has to adjust to their game plan every other day. :facepalm[/QUOTE]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Let's recap shall we?

'88 Regular season: 35.0 ppg on a .535 FG%
'Against the Pistons in the playoffs: 27.4 ppg on a .491 FG%

HUGE DECLINE.

'89 Regular season: 32.5 ppg on a .538 FG%
'89 Against the Pistons in the playoffs: 29,7 ppg on a .460 FG%

SIGNIFICANT DECLINE.

'90 Regular season: 33.6 ppg on a .526 FG%
'90 Post-season against Detroit: 32.1 ppg on a .467 FG%

SIGNIFICANT DECLINE.

'91 Regular season: 31.5 ppg on a .535 FG%
'91 post-season against the crumbling Bad Boys: 29.8 ppg on a .535 FG%

A SLIGHT DECLINE.

A DECLINE in EVERY SEASON against the Bad Boys.

Now, if you are claiming that the Bad Boys were a great team, with a great defense, true. BUT, welcome to Wilt's world.

Chamberlain faced the equivalent of the '89 Bad Boys...EIGHT TIMES in his post-season career. Not only that, but Nate Thurmond held KAJ to 22,8 ppg on a .405 FG%, and then 22.8 ppg on a .428 FG% in two straight post-seasons. Wilt faced Thurmond THREE times in his post-season career. And the Reed-led Knicks FOUR TIMES. And the peak Kareem-led Bucks TWICE. And the vast majority of those H2H's came in either Wilt's first round, or second round.