cp3 vs kidd vs payton

[QUOTE=aj1987]Why do you keep bringing up Sheed? I probably know more about those Pistons teams than you. [B]Again, [B][I]IF[/I][/B] Kobe puts his ego aside and plays like Kobe, they win in '04.[/B] I know you hate Kobe and it's hard to accept the alternative, but that's what it is.

The Heat were up 3-2 against the Pistons and Wade was absolutely going in raw before his injury. Anyone who was actually watching basketball in '05 would bet their houses on the Heat, if Wade was healthy. Lets not pretend that Wade's injury wasn't the reason as to why the Pistons ended up in the Finals. IIRC, Wade was averaging close to 30/5/7 in the games he wasn't injured.

For the whateverth time, the Pistons were an ATG defensive team, but they weren't an ATG team.[/QUOTE]

You saying that over and over again doesn't make it true.

[QUOTE=aj1987]Why do you keep bringing up Sheed? I probably know more about those Pistons teams than you. Again, [B][I]IF[/I][/B] Kobe puts his ego aside and plays like Kobe, they win in '04. I know you hate Kobe and it's hard to accept the alternative, but that's what it is.

The Heat were up 3-2 against the Pistons and Wade was absolutely going in raw before his injury. Anyone who was actually watching basketball in '05 would bet their houses on the Heat, if Wade was healthy. Lets not pretend that Wade's injury wasn't the reason as to why the Pistons ended up in the Finals. IIRC, Wade was averaging close to 30/5/7 in the games he wasn't injured.

For the whateverth time, the Pistons were an ATG defensive team, but they weren't an ATG team.[/QUOTE]

You repeating your opinion over and over again as fact...doesn't make it one. Sorry.

You obviously aren't reading my posts...I said I thought the Heat in 05 would have won, but that doesn't make it a fact...and certainly doesn't mean the Pistons weren't a great team.

So...no...sorry, Kobe playing better does not turn a 5 game series loss into a win for sure. Kobe was great in game 2 and the Lakers still needed OT to win...you aren't realizing the capabilities of that team.

Plays like Kobe? How so? I think the 04 Pistons were probably tougher defensively for Kobe than the 08 Celtics...but even if Kobe played as good in 04 as he did in the 08 finals...it wouldn't have been good enough. 26/5/5 on 51% TS isn't turning that series into a win for the Lakers. They probably get it to 6 games, but they aren't winning.

Also, just looking at Kobe's offense is too narrow a view. A huge issue with that series was how well the Pistons were scoring. They finished the series with a 106.7 offensive rating. This was much better than their regular season rating...and far better than their rating the two previous rounds in which they didn't even sniff breaking 100.

So yea...if Kobe averages 30/5/5 on 58% TS and he plays far better defense...then sure...Lakers probably win....great argument.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]You repeating your opinion over and over again as fact...doesn't make it one. Sorry.[/QUOTE]
[B][U]IF[/U][/B]

Yeah, if the Heat were healthy the Pistons do not make the Finals. [B]IF[/B] Kobe left his ego, he'd have 6 rings. It's not a 'fact'. Hypothetical scenario.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]So yea...if Kobe averages 30/5/5 on 58% TS and he plays far better defense...then sure...Lakers probably win....great argument.[/quote]
Again, you hate Kobe with a passion, so you can't be unbiased in this discussion. Kobe is an ATG. A top ~9 GOAT. Dude wanted to be the man and he lost the series for the team. Took 29 shots more than Shaq and scored 20 fewer points. He basically averaged the same number of assists as TOV's.

:roll: @ bringing up the Pistons' offense. They averaged lowers numbers over the board. FG%, 3pt%, FT%, etc. Also, they managed to score 100 ONCE in the series. They were a subpar offensive team. They were 18th and 17th offensively in '04 and '05.

For the final time, the Pistons were an ATG defensive team, but were not even close to being an ATG team.

[QUOTE=aj1987][B][U]IF[/U][/B]

Yeah, if the Heat were healthy the Pistons do not make the Finals. [B]IF[/B] Kobe left his ego, he'd have 6 rings. It's not a 'fact'. Hypothetical scenario. [/QUOTE]

Thats, not what he means.. he means the outcome of the hypothetical, which was already doubted by Smoke.

[QUOTE=aj1987][B][U]IF[/U][/B]

Yeah, if the Heat were healthy the Pistons do not make the Finals. [B]IF[/B] Kobe left his ego, he'd have 6 rings. It's not a 'fact'. Hypothetical scenario.


Again, you hate Kobe with a passion, so you can't be unbiased in this discussion. Kobe is an ATG. A top ~9 GOAT. Dude wanted to be the man and he lost the series for the team. Took 29 shots more than Shaq and scored 20 fewer points. He basically averaged the same number of assists as TOV's.

:roll: @ bringing up the Pistons' offense. They averaged lowers numbers over the board. FG%, 3pt%, FT%, etc. Also, they managed to score 100 ONCE in the series. They were a subpar offensive team. They were 18th and 17th offensively in '04 and '05.

For the final time, the Pistons were an ATG defensive team, but were not even close to being an ATG team.[/QUOTE]

You aren't following this man.

Just leave it at that...

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]Thats, not what he means.. he means the outcome of the hypothetical, which was already doubted by Smoke.[/QUOTE]
That's my opinion. I don't understand why he thinks it's a 'fact'. I keep repeating it because it's my OPINION. That's what hypotheticals are, right?

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]You aren't following this man.

Just leave it at that...[/QUOTE]
Meh. You just hate Kobe too much to actually have a reasonable argument.

You rep Wade although you're a Dirk stan. :cheers:

The Lakers werent winning that series plain and simple. Kobe shot as much as he had to, because it was only him and shaq scoring and Shaq wasnt in his prime anymore anyway. The pistons basically forced Kobe into an assload of mediocre shots by necessity.

They werent even the best team in the west. A wolves vs pistons series with everyone healthy wouldve been much more interesting

[QUOTE=aj1987]That's my opinion. I don't understand why he thinks it's a 'fact'. I keep repeating it because it's my OPINION. That's what hypotheticals are, right?


Meh. You just hate Kobe too much to actually have a reasonable argument.

You rep Wade although you're a Dirk stan. :cheers:[/QUOTE]

It has nothing to do with Kobe.

You don't understand what a hypothetical actually is...and you don't understand offensive rating.

I'm refuting your opinion...you get that...right?

Again...just take the L and leave please.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]It has nothing to do with Kobe.

You don't understand what a hypothetical actually is...and you don't understand offensive rating.

I'm refuting your opinion...you get that...right?

Again...just take the L and leave please.[/QUOTE]
Ugh! Offensive rating? Why leave out FG%, 3pt%, FT%, etc..? They weren't an ATG team and that's a FACT. Defensively? Sure, but not as a whole. Stop living in denial.

I think YOU don't actually know what a hypothetical is. I'll repeat myself.

[B]Yeah, if the Heat were healthy the Pistons do not make the Finals. IF Kobe left his ego, he'd have 6 rings. [U]It's not a 'fact'. Hypothetical scenario[/U]. [/B]

[QUOTE=aj1987]Ugh! Offensive rating? Why leave out FG%, 3pt%, FT%, etc..? They weren't an ATG team and that's a FACT. Defensively? Sure, but not as a whole. Stop living in denial.

I think YOU don't actually know what a hypothetical is. I'll repeat myself.

[B]Yeah, if the Heat were healthy the Pistons do not make the Finals. IF Kobe left his ego, he'd have 6 rings. [U]It's not a 'fact'. Hypothetical scenario[/U]. [/B][/QUOTE]

You have to defend your statements. Just because something is a hypothetical does not mean you can just say anything without defending it.

Tell me why Kobe would have played better in the 04 finals than he did in the 08 finals.

Explain to me how Kobe is doing that...and then explain why that would be good enough to win when the Pistons were scoring well against the Lakers also.

Lastly, offensive rating has everything built into it. It's scoring per 100 possessions...all the things you list above are inherently factored into it.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]You have to defend your statements. Just because something is a hypothetical does not mean you can just say anything without defending it.

Tell me why Kobe would have played better in the 04 finals than he did in the 08 finals.

Explain to me how Kobe is doing that...and then explain why that would be good enough to win when the Pistons were scoring well against the Lakers also.

Lastly, offensive rating has everything built into it. It's scoring per 100 possessions...all the things you list above are inherently factored into it.[/QUOTE]
Whatever helps you sleep better at night, bro. :cheers:

Your Kobe hate is actually beyond belief.

[QUOTE=aj1987]Whatever helps you sleep better at night, bro. :cheers:

Your Kobe hate is actually beyond belief.[/QUOTE]

Do you want to be taken seriously or not?

These aren't real answers.

I'm asking you to defend position and all you do is attack me.

My hate for Kobe? I have him as one of the 10 or 11 or so best players ever. Has nothing to do with this at all though.

I'll ask again...why would Kobe play better than he did in the 08 finals? And even if he did...why would that be good enough?

Try a real response this time please....or just leave like you should have.

Payton getting seriously overrated. He's on a tier below CP3 and Kidd. Great defender and good scorer but not near the floor general that CP3 and Kidd are.

To me CP3 is the best. Then Kidd but it's close.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]]
I'll ask again...why would Kobe play better than he did in the 08 finals? And even if he did...why would that be good enough?

Try a real response this time please....or just leave like you should have.[/QUOTE]
I've said it like a dozen times. Kobe was trying to be the man and he let his ego get in the way. If you actually saw the series, you'd know it as well. Dude was basically chucking the ball. Trying to score whenever he got it. There's no way ANY team could hold him to those numbers over a span of 5 games.

[QUOTE=aj1987]I've said it like a dozen times. Kobe was trying to be the man and he let his ego get in the way. If you actually saw the series, you'd know it as well. Dude was basically chucking the ball. Trying to score whenever he got it. There's no way ANY team could hold him to those numbers over a span of 5 games.[/QUOTE]

Dude...you aren't listening. We know Kobe played poorly, I'm asking you why you think even if he played as well as he did in the 08 finals...that would be good enough?

I'm not disputing Kobe played poorly, I'm saying he could have played quite better and it still not have been good enough.

Once again...the Pistons were scoring against the Lakers well in that series and they have an all time great defense....you can't just "grant" Kobe playing better than he did against the 08 Celtics, for example.

And my argument is that even if Kobe played as good as he did in 08...which I question would even be possible...that the Lakers still lose.

You follow?

And you've given no arguments at all...you just keep saying Kobe was bad on repeat.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Dude...you aren't listening. We know Kobe played poorly, I'm asking you why you think even if he played as well as he did in the 08 finals...that would be good enough?

I'm not disputing Kobe played poorly, I'm saying he could have played quite better and it still not have been good enough.[/quote]
Why do you keep bringing up the stats form '08 and the series in general? Kobe could've dumped it into the post more, whenever he was getting doubled. He could've also passed it more to open players when he was getting doubled at the half court. It's not just stats. It's about how you play the game.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]And you've given no arguments at all...you just keep saying Kobe was bad on repeat.[/QUOTE]
I don't think you actually understand basketball. It's not just stats. You also can't compare stats from different series, in basically different defensive eras, without any context.

[QUOTE=aj1987]Why do you keep bringing up the stats form '08 and the series in general? Kobe could've dumped it into the post more, whenever he was getting doubled. He could've also passed it more to open players when he was getting doubled at the half court. It's not just stats. It's about how you play the game.


I don't think you actually understand basketball. It's not just stats. You also can't compare stats from different series, in basically different defensive eras, without any context.[/QUOTE]

I'm not comparing "the stats"...I'm saying that Kobe playing at his 08 level still wouldn't have been good enough. Dumping it into Shaq more would have helped, but I don't think you are grasping the difference in that series on both sides of the ball. Those Lakers weren't an elite offense to begin with...with a 105.5 regular season ortg....good for 6th in the league. Now you think they are going above that against the Pistons? Why?

You have to give the Pistons credit...they were an all time great defense. And they were scoring at a clip of 106.7 offensive rating. It's no realistic to think the Lakers jump up over 10 points on offensive rating in your scenario.

Again, you can't just ignore that the Pistons were the cause of Kobe doing some of the things he was doing.

And finally, the nail in your coffin...is game 2. Everything you could ever ask for happened that game and the Lakers still needed overtime to win.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41][B]Those Lakers weren't an elite offense to begin with[/B]...with a 105.5 regular season ortg....good for [B]6th in the league[/B]. Now you think they are going above that against the Pistons? Why?[/QUOTE]
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

I'm done. Your Kobe hate is beyond irrational.

[QUOTE=aj1987]:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

I'm done. Your Kobe hate is beyond irrational.[/QUOTE]

What?

And why do you think that is hating? What I said were facts.

Go look at the playoffs in each series. I don't even have to. I know they were pretty good offensively against the wolves, and average at best vs the Rockets and Spurs.

Seriously....what are you talking about?

[QUOTE=KungFuJoe]Payton getting seriously overrated. He's on a tier below CP3 and Kidd. Great defender and good scorer but not near the floor general that CP3 and Kidd are.

To me CP3 is the best. Then Kidd but it's close.[/QUOTE]

stop. go watch some film before you spew nonsense.

cp3 is easily the worst of the bunch. if you had gary payton, jason kidd, and cp3 all lined up in front of you, then cp3 would be picked last every single time.

[QUOTE=aj1987]I've said it like a dozen times. Kobe was trying to be the man and he let his ego get in the way. If you actually saw the series, you'd know it as well. Dude was basically chucking the ball. Trying to score whenever he got it. There's no way ANY team could hold him to those numbers over a span of 5 games.[/QUOTE]

Lets say you're right and Kobe was making poor decisions. What alternative actually turns the tide in that series? Shaq was simply NOT going to turn the tide with more touches. I'm not sure if he was just still not in game shape after a whole season or if he'd just gotten too old, but either way he was NOT going to turn that series. The pistons defense was too good.

Payton and Malone both shot 33% or less. Devan George was under 40% shooting. Those were your next 3 guys in minutes played in that series. Fisher your 6th man was again under 33%. Hell rick fox was the ONLY guy on their bench to shoot over 50%...but he wasn't just the only over 50%, he was the only guy over 40%!

More to the point do you think the pistons were just letting kobe drop the ball to shaq with ease?

[QUOTE=dhsilv]Lets say you're right and Kobe was making poor decisions. What alternative actually turns the tide in that series? Shaq was simply NOT going to turn the tide with more touches. I'm not sure if he was just still not in game shape after a whole season or if he'd just gotten too old, but either way he was NOT going to turn that series. The pistons defense was too good.

Payton and Malone both shot 33% or less. Devan George was under 40% shooting. Those were your next 3 guys in minutes played in that series. Fisher your 6th man was again under 33%. Hell rick fox was the ONLY guy on their bench to shoot over 50%...but he wasn't just the only over 50%, he was the only guy over 40%!

More to the point do you think the pistons were just letting kobe drop the ball to shaq with ease?[/QUOTE]
Shaq was 2nd in MVP voting the next season and was putting up 23/11/3 on 60% the next season.

How the years years change the status of teams. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=aj1987]Shaq was 2nd in MVP voting the next season and was putting up 23/11/3 on 60% the next season.

How the years years change the status of teams. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

Could you explain why you think the Lakers would somehow start playing better offense than they did all year, including the playoffs, against one of the best defensive teams ever...and a team perfectly suited to guard both Kobe and Shaq?

Please answer...

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Could you explain why you think the Lakers would somehow start playing better offense than they did all year, including the playoffs, against one of the best defensive teams ever...and a team perfectly suited to guard both Kobe and Shaq?

Please answer...[/QUOTE]
If you think the 6th best offensive team in the league is not a good offensive team, than you really need to learn more about basketball.

[QUOTE=aj1987]If you think the 6th best offensive team in the league is not a good offensive team, than you really need to learn more about basketball.[/QUOTE]

Straw man argument. I said they weren't elite...I never said they weren't "good"...

Please respond with substance.

Payton > Kidd > Nash > CP3

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Straw man argument.

Please respond with substance.[/QUOTE]
:biggums:

Are you drunk or high?

[QUOTE=aj1987]:biggums:

Are you drunk or high?[/QUOTE]

Are you?

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Are you?[/QUOTE]
:facepalm

Great discussion...we should take you seriously from now on.

Does it make you feel better or worse that everyone here knows you got killed in the debate and are very aware of the BS straw man arguments and ad hominem you just pulled?

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Great discussion...we should take you seriously from now on.

Does it make you feel better or worse that everyone here knows you got killed in the debate and are very aware of the BS straw man arguments and ad hominem you just pulled?[/QUOTE]
As I said, whatever helps you sleep better. You cherrypick and ignore points worse than 3ball.

:cheers:

[QUOTE=aj1987]As I said, whatever helps you sleep better. You cherrypick and ignore points worse than 3ball.

:cheers:[/QUOTE]

Actually I addressed all of your points...at least any of the ones that made some amount of sense.

And I'm still waiting to hear how the Lakers were improving their offense against the Pistons.

But, regardless, why even be here and start a discussion if you aren't interested in having one?

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Actually I addressed all of your points...at least any of the ones that made some amount of sense.

And I'm still waiting to hear how the Lakers were improving their offense against the Pistons.

But, regardless, why even be here and start a discussion if you aren't interested in having one?[/QUOTE]
You think this actually made sense?

[QUOTE=DMAVS41][B]Those Lakers weren't an elite offense to begin with[/B]...with a 105.5 regular season ortg....good for [B]6th in the league[/B]. Now you think they are going above that against the Pistons? Why?[/QUOTE]

Please stop embarrassing yourself, dude.

[QUOTE=aj1987]You think this actually made sense?



Please stop embarrassing yourself, dude.[/QUOTE]

Do you know what the word "elite" means?

Are you arguing that the Lakers were an "elite" offensive team in 04 prior to the finals?

Wait...you think the words "good" and "elite" are the same thing...wow...okay...things make more sense now.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Do you know what the word "elite" means?

Are you arguing that the Lakers were an "elite" offensive team in 04 prior to the finals?[/QUOTE]
You think the Sonics and Bucks were elite offensively in '04?

Also, you think Kobe and Shaq missing a combined 32 games doesn't effect their ORtg?

[QUOTE=aj1987]You think the Sonics and Bucks were elite offensively in '04?[/QUOTE]

No...I'd have to look it up, but the only team I remember in 04 having an elite offense was the Mavs. My guess is that everyone else wasn't separating themselves much.

Of course Shaq/Kobe missing time impacts...which is why part of my argument was looking at the playoffs to see how they were performing.

Keep up please.

I take Kidd>Payton>Paul.

Jason Kidd is a player you can't judge on boxscores. If they counted hockey assists Kidd would be the all time leader. I've never seen a player like Kidd with such a chess like ability to create offense just by passing, moving, passing, moving. Kidd was like a maestro thinking 3 moves ahead, being just as valuable off ball as on ball.

The only other player I've seen with that innate understanding of the game was Magic. And Kidd in the open floor was all time best level, almost at Magic level there too. Add to that he was a tripple double machine with very good D. He is underrated because you need to see how he dominated games, not just watch highlights or boxscores. Kidd had a massive part in that Mavs championship but doesn't get the credit, next year he is gone, Mavs don't do anything since that. He took the Knicks and made them into a playoff team, again did not get praise (Melo took it), but then he is gone and Knicks suck again, that's the story of Jason Kidd, making teams much better by doing stuff that doesn't show up fully in boxscores.

Payton is second because he is an all time great defender. The Sonics 96 was suffocating, I've never seen anything like it since and it was better than Knicks that I watched in the 90s too. Payton was the man behind it all, not your typical guard impact on defense, he could shut down point guards and shooting guards completely, even almost shutting down the GOAT.

Paul has the best overall talent of the 3. No weaknesses, the best scorer of the 3, but Paul imo lacks the kind of all time skill in one area that Payton (defense) and Kidd (running an offense) have. He is elite in all areas almost, but he does not have all time great ability in any particular area. That's why I think he really is mostly suited to be 1b and not 1a. He is Stockton to a Malone, but even then I still would pick Stockton over Paul.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]No...I'd have to look it up, but the only team I remember in 04 having an elite offense was the Mavs.[/QUOTE]
So you admit that you actually don't remember the season. Box-scores only tell you so much.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Of course Shaq/Kobe missing time impacts...which is why part of my argument was looking at the playoffs to see how they were performing.[/quote]
You do know that they beat 2 teams with ATG defenders, right?

[QUOTE=aj1987]So you admit that you actually don't remember the season. Box-scores only tell you so much.[/QUOTE]

What?

I'm doing all of this on the top of my head...I clearly remember it better than you.

Did the Mavs have the best offense that year? Yes.

Did the Lakers look like an offensive power in the playoffs prior to the finals? No

So I ask again...why are they getting better against, as you say, an ATG defense?

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]What?

I'm doing all of this on the top of my head...I clearly remember it better than you.

Did the Mavs have the best offense that year? Yes.

Did the Lakers look like an offensive power in the playoffs prior to the finals? No

So I ask again...why are they getting better against, as you say, an ATG defense?[/QUOTE]
Jesus Christ. Now I know why tpols doesn't even bother with you anymore. I'm out.