Remember when 34-35 year old MJ was more dominant than 2000 Shaq?

[QUOTE=Yoshi]

regarding the defensive side of the ball for the Bulls - the Bulls' DRtg in 1994 (6th) wasn't any better relative to the league than the first 3-peat (7th, 4th, 7th).. Accordingly, the massive decline from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team was due [I]entirely[/I] to the absence of MJ's [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12082990&postcount=185]goat offense[/url], which caused their ORtg to crater from #1 all-time (during the 3-peat) to 14th in the league in 1994.

[/QUOTE]
Indeed - teams have a finite amount of energy to expend on both ends - shifts in performance/effort on one side normally take away from the other side.. But even though the Bulls offense fell off a cliff in 1994 and they focused more on defense, their defense didn't improve relative to the league because they were missing their [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s]best defender[/url].

Otoh, the presence of MJ gave the Bulls the highest ORtg's of all time.. But this GOAT improvement on offense didn't come at the expense of defense like it would for most teams.. His presence enabled a TWO-WAY team, which isn't surprising, since he's the goat two-way player according to [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11875095&postcount=46]Popovich[/url].

So imagine Kawhi Leonard (as Popovich references), with the capability of scoring 15 more ppg.. That's Jordan... That's the GOAT.

[QUOTE=3ball]Your literally defending an anonymous poster who you don't know... He could be a child molester - we know he's had an online fixation for at least 7 years.



What context?... The data speaks for itself.

In 2000, Kobe averaged 15 ppg on 35% in 2000 Finals - amazingly, that's worse than Pippen's 15 ppg on 41% in 1998 Finals - so Kobe was providing LESS help than Pippen, but Shaq was still scoring a far lower proportion of his team's points than MJ.

34-35 year old MJ was simply much more dominant than Shaq... Deal with it without coming to the defense of potential child molesters.[/QUOTE]

Here's some math for you, f*ggot.

You have 7,003 more posts than this "anonymous poster." 7,003 more posts in less time from 2014-2016 opposed to his 2009 join date. Who has an online fixation, bitch?

F*ck off.

Get a life. No one can win with you. Your goal posts get farther and farther because you keep moving them to fit your agenda.

You're not always right.

[QUOTE=Koresh]

You're not always right.

[/QUOTE]
i am regarding the stats i post about jordan


[QUOTE=Koresh]

Here's some math for you, f*ggot.

You have 7,003 more posts than this "anonymous poster." 7,003 more posts in less time from 2014-2016 opposed to his 2009 join date. Who has an online fixation, bitch?

F*ck off.

Get a life. No one can win with you. Your goal posts get farther and farther because you keep moving them to fit your agenda.

[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://awesomelyluvvie.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/tumblr_md42dow0sv1r5x5zu.gif[/IMG]

.
[COLOR="White"].........[/COLOR][COLOR="darkRed"][SIZE="3"][I][B]Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor[/B][/I][/SIZE][/COLOR]


[COLOR="White"].........................[/COLOR][B]RS[/B][COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR][B]RS 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] [B]PO[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]PO 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]Finals[/B][COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [B]Finals 4th[/B]


[I][B]JORDAN 1997[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]36.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]40.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs]37.7[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]46.3[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]40.9[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]50.4[/url] [B][COLOR="Green"]<--- links to data[/COLOR][/B]
[I][B]JORDAN 1998[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]36.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]42.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs]39.7[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]48.8[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]43.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]49.1[/url]


[I][B]SHAQ 2000[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]35.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]38.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs]34.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]39.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]38.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]43.9[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2001[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]33.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]38.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs]33.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]34.0[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]35.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]26.2[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2002[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]33.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]35.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs]33.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]25.7[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]38.1[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]28.2[/url]




[COLOR="White"].......[/COLOR][COLOR="darkRed"][SIZE="3"][I][B]Percentages of team points [COLOR="Red"]+ assists[/COLOR] while player was on floor[/B][/I][/SIZE][/COLOR]


[COLOR="White"].........................[/COLOR][B]RS[/B][COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR][B]RS 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] [B]PO[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]PO 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]Finals[/B][COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [B]Finals 4th[/B]


[I][B]JORDAN 1997[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]57.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]63.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs]64.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]84.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]73.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]91.1[/url]
[I][B]JORDAN 1998[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]54.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]53.6[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs]59.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]76.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]58.3[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]69.1[/url]


[I][B]SHAQ 2000[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]53.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]59.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]55.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]48.7[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]64.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2001[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]52.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]56.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]54.9[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]57.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]59.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2002[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]51.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]51.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]44.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]55.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]54.9[/url]



[IMG]https://media.giphy.com/media/bxnXSJV07za7e/giphy.gif[/IMG]



[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]

You didn't specify in your title that it was just about offense.

[/QUOTE]
When comparing a center and a guard, it makes no sense to consider defensive impact - if we give extra credit to Shaq's naturally greater defensive impact at center, that assumes the Bulls didn't have a center AT ALL.. But they did have a center.

The Bulls had a center that could offset Shaq's impact, while the Lakers had a SG that could offset Jordan's - in this case, Longley offset Shaq in the defensive boxscore far more than Kobe offset Jordan, which illustrates the point pretty well (as shown below).

That's why the defensive end should generally be considered a wash when comparing an ATG center to an ATG guard - if anything, the edge should to to the player who was better relative to the peers at their position, which would be MJ (best defensive SG in the league, 9 first-team defense.... compared to Shaq's 3 second teams in 17 years, no first teams).


[I][COLOR="Navy"]LONGLEY DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: 1.7.. 102
[I][COLOR="Navy"]O'NEAL[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: 1.6.. 101

[COLOR="DarkRed"][B]Longley offset what Shaq did defensively far more than Kobe offset Jordan:[/B][/COLOR]

[I][COLOR="Navy"]JORDAN DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: 1.1, 103
[I][COLOR="Navy"]KOBE[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: [COLOR="Red"]-0.5[/COLOR], 105


Btw, unlike jordan, shaq wouldn't be a good defender in THIS era, where big men don't stand in the paint on defense like they used to - shaq's big ass taking up space was the #1 reason he had a decent impact defensively (imo)... the times he managed to shuffle his feet defensively were infrequent because he didn't have to come out on the perimeter often like today's bigs do, and he wasn't as good on the perimeter as say, Hakeem or Robinson.
.

[QUOTE]When comparing a center and a guard, it makes no sense to consider defensive impact - if we give extra credit to Shaq's naturally greater defensive impact at center, that assumes the Bulls didn't have a center AT ALL.. [B]But they did have a center.[/B]

The Bulls had a center that could offset Shaq's impact, while the Lakers had a SG that could offset Jordan's - in this case, [B]Longley offset Shaq[/B] in the defensive boxscore far more than Kobe offset Jordan, which illustrates the point pretty well (as shown below).[/QUOTE]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[QUOTE]When comparing a center and a guard, it makes no sense to consider defensive impact - if we give extra credit to Shaq's naturally greater defensive impact at center, that assumes the Bulls didn't have a center AT ALL.. [B]But they did have a center.
[/B]
The Bulls had a center that could offset Shaq's impact, while the Lakers had a SG that could offset Jordan's - in this case, [B]Longley offset Shaq[/B] in the defensive boxscore far more than Kobe offset Jordan, which illustrates the point pretty well (as shown below).[/QUOTE]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[QUOTE]When comparing a center and a guard, it makes no sense to consider defensive impact - if we give extra credit to Shaq's naturally greater defensive impact at center, that assumes the Bulls didn't have a center AT ALL.. [B]But they did have a center.
[/B]
The Bulls had a center that could offset Shaq's impact, while the Lakers had a SG that could offset Jordan's - in this case, [B]Longley offset Shaq[/B] in the defensive boxscore far more than Kobe offset Jordan, which illustrates the point pretty well (as shown below).[/QUOTE]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

First of all, claiming that Longley had more impact than Kobe. Just hilarious.

But even more hilarious...even putting Longley in the same sentence as Shaq is just downright gut-busting.

You are something else Goofball.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[QUOTE]
When comparing a center and a guard, it makes no sense to consider defensive impact - if we give extra credit to Shaq's naturally greater defensive impact at center, that assumes the Bulls didn't have a center AT ALL.. [B]But they did have a center[/B].

The Bulls had a center that could offset Shaq's impact, while the Lakers had a SG that could offset Jordan's - in this case, [B]Longley offset Shaq[/B] in the defensive boxscore far more than Kobe offset Jordan, which illustrates the point pretty well (as shown below).[/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=longllu01[/url]

And look at Shaq's numbers in his 2000 season against that pathetic clown that you call a center.

Just murdered that POS.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

.
[B]Learn to read Lazeruss - stop trolling and lying about what I said - THIS is what I said:
[/B]

When comparing a center and a guard for the purposes of evaluating [I][COLOR="Navy"]who was the better BASKETBALL PLAYER[/COLOR][/I], it makes no sense to consider defensive impact - if we give extra credit to Shaq's naturally greater defensive impact at center, that assumes the Bulls didn't have a center AT ALL.. But the Bulls did have a center, just like all teams have a center - so you it doesn't make sense to compare Shaq's defensive impact to Jordan's directly.

Like all teams, the Bulls had a center that could offset Shaq's impact, while the Lakers had a SG that could offset Jordan's - in this case, Longley offset Shaq in the defensive boxscore far more than Kobe offset Jordan, which illustrates the point pretty well (as shown below).

That's why the defensive end should generally be considered a wash when comparing an ATG center to an ATG guard - if anything, the edge should to to the player who was better relative to the peers at their position, which would be MJ (best defensive SG in the league, 9 first-team defense.... compared to Shaq's 3 second teams in 17 years, no first teams).


[I][COLOR="Navy"]LONGLEY DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: 1.7.. 102
[I][COLOR="Navy"]O'NEAL[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: 1.6.. 101

[COLOR="DarkRed"][B]Longley offset what Shaq did defensively far more than Kobe offset Jordan:[/B][/COLOR]

[I][COLOR="Navy"]JORDAN DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: 1.1, 103
[I][COLOR="Navy"]KOBE[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: [COLOR="Red"]-0.5[/COLOR], 105



[SIZE="3"][B]And there's no answer for the offensive side of the ball:[/B][/SIZE]



[COLOR="White"].........[/COLOR][COLOR="darkRed"][SIZE="3"][I][B]Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor[/B][/I][/SIZE][/COLOR]


[COLOR="White"].........................[/COLOR][B]RS[/B][COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR][B]RS 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] [B]PO[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]PO 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]Finals[/B][COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [B]Finals 4th[/B]


[I][B]JORDAN 1997[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]36.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]40.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs]37.7[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]46.3[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]40.9[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]50.4[/url] [B][COLOR="Green"]<--- links to data[/COLOR][/B]
[I][B]JORDAN 1998[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]36.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]42.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs]39.7[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]48.8[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]43.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]49.1[/url]


[I][B]SHAQ 2000[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]35.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]38.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs]34.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]39.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]38.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]43.9[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2001[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]33.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]38.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs]33.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]34.0[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]35.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]26.2[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2002[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]33.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]35.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs]33.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]25.7[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]38.1[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]28.2[/url]




[COLOR="White"].......[/COLOR][COLOR="darkRed"][SIZE="3"][I][B]Percentages of team points [COLOR="Red"]+ assists[/COLOR] while player was on floor[/B][/I][/SIZE][/COLOR]


[COLOR="White"].........................[/COLOR][B]RS[/B][COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR][B]RS 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] [B]PO[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]PO 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]Finals[/B][COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [B]Finals 4th[/B]


[I][B]JORDAN 1997[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]57.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]63.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs]64.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]84.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]73.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]91.1[/url]
[I][B]JORDAN 1998[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]54.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]53.6[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs]59.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]76.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]58.3[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]69.1[/url]


[I][B]SHAQ 2000[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]53.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]59.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]55.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]48.7[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]64.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2001[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]52.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]56.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]54.9[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]57.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]59.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2002[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]51.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]51.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]44.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]55.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]54.9[/url]

[QUOTE=3ball].
[B]Learn to read Lazeruss - stop trolling and lying about what I said - THIS is what I said:
[/B]

When comparing a center and a guard for the purposes of evaluating [I][COLOR="Navy"]who was the better BASKETBALL PLAYER[/COLOR][/I], it makes no sense to consider defensive impact - if we give extra credit to Shaq's naturally greater defensive impact at center, that assumes the Bulls didn't have a center AT ALL.. But the Bulls did have a center, just like all teams have a center.

The Bulls had a center that could offset Shaq's impact, while the Lakers had a SG that could offset Jordan's - in this case, Longley offset Shaq in the defensive boxscore far more than Kobe offset Jordan, which illustrates the point pretty well (as shown below).

That's why the defensive end should generally be considered a wash when comparing an ATG center to an ATG guard - if anything, the edge should to to the player who was better relative to the peers at their position, which would be MJ (best defensive SG in the league, 9 first-team defense.... compared to Shaq's 3 second teams in 17 years, no first teams).


[I][COLOR="Navy"]LONGLEY DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: 1.7.. 102
[I][COLOR="Navy"]O'NEAL[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: 1.6.. 101

[COLOR="DarkRed"][B]Longley offset what Shaq did defensively far more than Kobe offset Jordan:[/B][/COLOR]

[I][COLOR="Navy"]JORDAN DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: 1.1, 103
[I][COLOR="Navy"]KOBE[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] DBPM and DRTG[/COLOR][/I]: [COLOR="Red"]-0.5[/COLOR], 105[/QUOTE]

You are showing me absolutely nothing.

BUT, I have shown you that we KNOW that Shaq had a FAR greater IMPACT against that stumble-bum Longley H2H for cryingoutloud.

BTW, [B]Kobe was [COLOR="DarkRed"]1st team[/COLOR] all-defense in 2000[/B].

As for your defensive ratings...pure shit, as always.

Maybe you can find me a game in one of Longley's many Finals in which he took over after Jordan fouled out like Kobe did in game four of the 2000 Finals.

Kobe in 2000 was just coming into his own, and by 2001 was an elite defender that was carrying the Lakers past the Duncan-Robinson Spurs.

Longley was just a career worthless POS that had ZERO impact at any time in his career.

You are just hilarious.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Shaq > Jordan

And it's not even Close.

Shaq was unstoppable in 2000.

.
[SIZE="3"][B][COLOR="darkRed"]Hey Lazeruss - I figured out a better way to make my point:[/color][/b][/size]


Since Jordan has the bigger defensive advantage against peers at his position (best defensive SG in league), he gives his team a bigger advantage on the defensive side of the ball than Shaq, whose defensive advantage is much smaller in his matchups with peers at the center position.

Jordan was the best defensive SG in the league for 10 straight seasons and made 9 First-Team All-Defense - so he has a bigger defensive edge vs. his peers than Shaq, who only made only 3 Second-Team All-Defense in 17 seasons (no first teams), and therefore gives his team a smaller defensive edge vs. his peers..
.

[img]https://49.media.tumblr.com/82ccf3a22a93759166d269d9dbbc14b4/tumblr_n6tbvtqvNY1qg9ai1o1_500.gif[/img]

[QUOTE=3ball].
[SIZE="3"][B][COLOR="darkRed"]Hey Lazeruss - I figured out a better way to make my point:[/color][/b][/size]


Since Jordan has the bigger defensive advantage against peers at his position (best defensive SG in league), he gives his team a bigger advantage on the defensive side of the ball than Shaq, whose defensive advantage is much smaller in his matchups with peers at the center position.

Jordan was the best defensive SG in the league for 10 straight seasons and made 9 First-Team All-Defense - so he has a bigger defensive edge vs. his peers than Shaq, who only made only 3 Second-Team All-Defense in 17 seasons (no first teams), and therefore gives his team a smaller defensive edge vs. his peers..
.[/QUOTE]

Why does it matter the advantage against peers?

The question is, who had more defensive impact, 00 O'Neal or 97' Jordan. That's it, the rest of the players don't matter here.

Who had more defensive impact, peak Pippen or peak David Lee? Peak Moncrief or peak Bargnani? Answers to these questions are obvious, there is no need at all to look at their contemporary peers. I don't understand why you talk about Longley here, we are comparing O'Neal to Jordan, that's it

[QUOTE=3ball].
[SIZE="3"][B][COLOR="darkRed"]Hey Lazeruss - I figured out a better way to make my point:[/color][/b][/size]


Since Jordan has the bigger defensive advantage against peers at his position (best defensive SG in league), he gives his team a bigger advantage on the defensive side of the ball than Shaq, whose defensive advantage is much smaller in his matchups with peers at the center position.

Jordan was the best defensive SG in the league for 10 straight seasons and made 9 First-Team All-Defense - so he has a bigger defensive edge vs. his peers than Shaq, who only made only 3 Second-Team All-Defense in 17 seasons (no first teams), and therefore gives his team a smaller defensive edge vs. his peers..
.[/QUOTE]

Intereresting...

You KNOW that I could post a PRIME Shaq's H2H's against Ewing, Hakeem, and Robinson, and he just blew them all away, right?

Not even close. A 22 year Shaq was pummeling a prime Hakeem in the Finals (BTW, he outshot him from the field by a staggering .590 to .483 margin.) And after that H2H, it was basically a Shaq in a tank and driving on the same freeway in a 100 degree day, as the cube of butter that Hakeem was, was laying in.

[QUOTE=Dr Hawk]Why does it matter the advantage against peers?

The question is, who had more defensive impact, 00 O'Neal or 97' Jordan. That's it, the rest of the players don't matter here.

Who had more defensive impact, peak Pippen or peak David Lee? Peak Moncrief or peak Bargnani? Answers to these questions are obvious, there is no need at all to look at their contemporary peers. I don't understand why you talk about Longley here, we are comparing O'Neal to Jordan, that's it[/QUOTE]

you can't understand it because it's an incredibly stupid deflection.

[QUOTE=Dr Hawk]Why does it matter the advantage against peers?

The question is, who had more defensive impact, 00 O'Neal or 97' Jordan. That's it, the rest of the players don't matter here.

Who had more defensive impact, peak Pippen or peak David Lee? Peak Moncrief or peak Bargnani? Answers to these questions are obvious, there is no need at all to look at their contemporary peers.[B] I don't understand why you talk about Longley here[/B], we are comparing O'Neal to Jordan, that's it[/QUOTE]

Only Goofball understands this comparison.

He is the inventor of the now famous math equation...

[B]2 - 2 = 4[/B]

.
[COLOR="White"].........[/COLOR][COLOR="darkRed"][SIZE="3"][I][B]Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor[/B][/I][/SIZE][/COLOR]


[COLOR="White"].........................[/COLOR][B]RS[/B][COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR][B]RS 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] [B]PO[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]PO 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]Finals[/B][COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [B]Finals 4th[/B]


[I][B]JORDAN 1997[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]36.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]40.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs]37.7[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]46.3[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]40.9[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]50.4[/url] [B][COLOR="Green"]<--- links to data[/COLOR][/B]
[I][B]JORDAN 1998[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]36.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]42.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs]39.7[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]48.8[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]43.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]49.1[/url]


[I][B]SHAQ 2000[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]35.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]38.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs]34.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]39.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]38.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]43.9[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2001[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]33.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]38.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs]33.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]34.0[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]35.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]26.2[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2002[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]33.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]35.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs]33.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]25.7[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]38.1[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]28.2[/url]




[COLOR="White"].......[/COLOR][COLOR="darkRed"][SIZE="3"][I][B]Percentages of team points [COLOR="Red"]+ assists[/COLOR] while player was on floor[/B][/I][/SIZE][/COLOR]


[COLOR="White"].........................[/COLOR][B]RS[/B][COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR][B]RS 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] [B]PO[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]PO 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]Finals[/B][COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [B]Finals 4th[/B]


[I][B]JORDAN 1997[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]57.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]63.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs]64.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]84.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]73.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]91.1[/url]
[I][B]JORDAN 1998[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]54.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]53.6[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs]59.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]76.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]58.3[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]69.1[/url]


[I][B]SHAQ 2000[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]53.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]59.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]55.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]48.7[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]64.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2001[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]52.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]56.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]54.9[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]57.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]59.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2002[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]51.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]51.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]44.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]55.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]54.9[/url]

[QUOTE=Dr. Hawk]

[B][COLOR="DarkRed"]Why does it matter the advantage against peers?[/COLOR][/B]

[/QUOTE]
Centers have a bigger defensive impact when compared directly to guards, but the [I][COLOR="blue"]advantage they give their team[/COLOR][/I] depends on how their impact relates to other CENTERS, not guards.

Shaq's team realizes no [I][U]advantage[/U][/I] when his impact is matched or exceeded by the opposing center.. This happened more often for him than it happened for MJ/Pip/Lebron, since they ranked at the TOP defensively at their position, and he didn't - so they gave their team a bigger advantage in defensive impact over the opposing wing, then Shaq's advantage over the opposing center, which means they provided the bigger defensive impact for their team.

Here's an example - look at the Ray Allen vs. Jordan DBPM comparison (-1.3 to Jordan's 1.1) and then look at Ray's teammate, C Ervin Johnson vs. Shaq (2.6 to Shaq's 1.6).. [I][COLOR="Navy"]Now who provided the greater defensive impact to their team??[/COLOR][/I].. Shaq's team realizes no [I][U]advantage[/U][/I] from his rim-protecting impact anytime it's matched or exceeded by the opposing team's center.

Btw, I used the defensive boxscore stat to measure defensive impact because the verbage "[I]defensive box score[/I]" makes it easy to conceptualize the advantage in defensive impact a player can provide.. [I][COLOR="Navy"]But ANY stat/methodology could be used to measure defensive impact[/COLOR][/I] - the point is that we know elite defenders provided their teams with a bigger advantage in defensive impact over their matchup, then Shaq provided over his.

And the same concept applies to Pippen, Lebron or ANY elite defensive player that ranks higher defensively at their position than Shaq, who was not an elite defensive center.

Now obviously, MJ, Pippen and Lebron probably DON'T provide their team with a greater defensive impact than guys like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo - those guys were elite at their position AS WELL, and likely held a greater advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pip/Lebron held over opposing wings... But not Shaq - Shaq was NOT an elite defender like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo, so he didn't have a larger advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pippen/Lebron have over opposing wings.

Shaq was lazy with poor work ethic and only made three 2nd team all defense in 17 years (no 1st teams).. Consequently, his teams were never great defensive teams (ranked in top 6 once in 15 years, thru his Miami days).

There's no guarantee that if you drafted Shaq over Jordan, your team would be better defensively - infact, it's the opposite - Shaq's teams were far worse defensively over the course of his career than Jordan's, even when Shaq had solid defenders like Horace Grant, Eddie Jones, Kobe and Alonzo Mourning.



[U]Shaq's all-defensive teammates:[/U]

Horace Grant 2
Eddie Jones 2
Kobe Bryant 5
Dwayne Wade 1
________________
[I]4 teammates.. 10 times... 4 of 15 seasons with zero all-def teammates[/I]




[U]MJ's all-defensive teammates:[/U]

Scottie Pippen 6
Horace Grant 1
Dennis Rodman 1
_________________
[I]3 teammates... 8 times... 5 of 11 seasons with zero all-def teammates
[/I]



[U]Shaq's team's defensive ranks thru his Miami days:[/U]

1993 Orlando: 12[SIZE="3"]*[/SIZE]
1994 Orlando: 15
1995 Orlando: 13
1996 Orlando: 12
1997 Lakers: 8[SIZE="3"]*[/SIZE]
1998 Lakers: 11
1999 Lakers: 23
2000 Lakers: 1
2001 Lakers: 21
2002 Lakers: 7
2003 Lakers: 19
2004 Lakers: 8
2005 Miami: 6
2006 Miami: 9[SIZE="3"]*[/SIZE]
2007 Miami: 8[SIZE="3"]*[/SIZE]
_________________
11.5 average

[I][I](asterisk means no all-defensive players on team)[/I][/I]



[U]Jordan's team's defensive ranks as Bull[/U]

1985 Bulls: 20[SIZE="3"]*[/SIZE]
1987 Bulls: 11[SIZE="3"]*[/SIZE]
1988 Bulls: 3[SIZE="3"]*[/SIZE]
1989 Bulls: 11[SIZE="3"]*[/SIZE]
1990 Bulls: 19[SIZE="3"]*[/SIZE]
1991 Bulls: 7
1992 Bulls: 4
1993 Bulls: 7
1996 Bulls: 1
1997 Bulls: 4
1998 Bulls: 3
_______________
8.18 average



[B]A couple caveats:[/B]

[I][COLOR="Navy"]1) Shaq had Alonzo Mourning on his team leading the bench in 2006 - Alonzo averaged an amazing 2.7 blocks in 20 minutes per game.

2) Shaq had Horace Grant starting every game for Lakers in 2001, with averages of 9/7, not far off his career averages of 11/8.

3) People say Pippen > Kobe defensively - well apparently, not relative to his competition, as evidenced by Kobe's equivalent number of 1st team all-defensive selections - when evaluating things in basketball, "relative to the competition" is the name of the game.[/COLOR][/I]


[B]Conclusion:[/B] [I]Considering Shaq had all-defensive wing teammates his entire career (and frontcourt player Horace in Orlando), there's no excuse for Shaq NOT being the difference that drove teams to elite defensive status like Hakeem, Robinson, and Ewing's did... Shaq simply wasn't a great defender relative to the elite defenders at his position and vastly underachieved defensively... Furthermore, his lack of work ethic and lazy mentality permeated his teams.

Otoh, Jordan's teams were rated higher defensively his entire career, despite having less all-defensive teammates.. This shouldn't be surprising since Jordan gave his team a bigger defensive boxscore advantage at his position, than Shaq gave his team at his position - Jordan was the far superior defender relative to his peers than Shaq, and his far superior work ethic/mentality rubbed off on the entire team.[/I]
.

[QUOTE=3ball]There's no guarantee that if you drafted Shaq over Jordan, your team would be better defensively - infact, Shaq's teams were far worse defensively over the course of his career than Jordan's, even when Shaq had solid defenders like Horace Grant, Eddie Jones, Kobe and Alonzo Mourning.

And there's no definitive stat or data that really measures defensive impact concretely - so what I'm saying could be as right as anything out there..

[I][COLOR="Navy"]Here are the FACTS we know[/COLOR]: the defensive impact that Shaq gave the Lakers was often wiped out by the other team's center, like Hakeem, David Robinson, Dikembe or Alonzo, who gave their team greater defensive impacts.
[/I]
This didn't happen for Jordan because he was the best defensive SG in the league... On average, he gave his team a bigger defensive boxscore advantage at his position, than Shaq gave his team at his position - as an example, look at the Kobe vs. Jordan DBPM comparison (-0.5 to Jordan's 1.1) and then look at Longley vs. Shaq (1.7 to Shaq's 1.6).

Now I'll concede that if you replaced Jordan with Hakeem or Robinson, the Bulls would be a better defensive team than with Jordan - but again, those guys were the best defensive players at their position just like Jordan was, and their defensive advantage over other centers was likely bigger than Jordan's advantage over other SG's.

So it isn't remarkable that replacing Jordan with them would lead to a better defensive team... But not Shaq - he was only 2nd team all-defense 3 times in his 17 year career (never 1st team) and his teams rarely ranked near the top defensively - and again, his defensive boxscore advantage over the opposing center was less than the defensive boxscore advantage Jordan had over his matchup at SG, so Jordan was giving his team a bigger defensive impact in that regard.

So yeah, MJ was the better defender in my book, and you can't prove me wrong... And we already know MJ provided the far greater [I]offensive[/I] impact (see previous post).[/QUOTE]
You mean Pippen was the better defender. 1-9

[QUOTE]the defensive impact that Shaq gave his team was often wiped out by the other team's center, like Hakeem, David Robinson[/QUOTE]

In his 26 career H2H's with Ewing,

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=ewingpa01&p2=onealsh01[/url]

Shaq outscored him on average by a 28.7 ppg to 21.4 ppg margin, and outshot him by a .542 to .444 margin.


How about against David Robinson?

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=robinda01&p2=onealsh01[/url]

Shaq outscored him in their 23 regular season H2H's, 26.1 ppg to 18.6 ppg, and outshot him by a .536 to .470 margin.

In their 17 post-season H2H's, the margins were 24.7 ppg to 9.6 ppg, and .523 to .451.


And how about the great Hakeem?

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=onealsh01[/url]

20 regular season H2H's... 22.1 ppg to 18.4 ppg, and .544 to .447.
8 post-season H2H's... 28.8 ppg to 23.0 ppg, and .556 to .465.


Next bit of nonsense...

Surely if you tally only percentage of team points scored and assists, you exclude the biggest advantage Shaq has over MJ: rebounding. If you factor that in, peak Shaq would probably come out on top (I haven't checked). Of course there's an issue of what weighting should be given to each category in terms of importance, which is when it once again becomes arbitrary horse shit.

I can roll with the idea that second three peat MJ was a better overall player than peak Shaq, though I would disagree and limit that to only peak Jordan. However, when you start throwing around hyperbole like 'far greater', it's farcical, delusional and frankly trolling.

Just quickly checked the data, and 00-02 Shaq was pulling down roughly 35-40% of the team rebounds in the playoffs, while MJ around 15-20%. That makes a difference.

Basketball reference really ****ing up your fairy tales this week, huh 3ball. :applause:

[QUOTE=K Xerxes]Surely if you tally only percentage of team points scored and assists, you exclude the biggest advantage Shaq has over MJ: rebounding. If you factor that in, peak Shaq would probably come out on top (I haven't checked). Of course there's an issue of what weighting should be given to each category in terms of importance, which is when it once again becomes arbitrary horse shit.

I can roll with the idea that second three peat MJ was a better overall player than peak Shaq, though I would disagree and limit that to only peak Jordan. However, when you start throwing around hyperbole like 'far greater', it's farcical, delusional and frankly trolling.

Just quickly checked the data, and 00-02 Shaq was pulling down roughly 35-40% of the team rebounds in the playoffs, while MJ around 15-20%. That makes a difference.[/QUOTE]

Agree. I don't think its crazy to say that Shaq even in his peak was overrated due to his historically bad free throw shooting and that there a number of better players, such as 34-35 year old Jordan, who was better as a result. Not a crazy thought.

I'd probably say Shaq has been underrated for the most part though, especially since Wilt and Russell had the same issue. Maybe I'm mistaken, but was there ever a Hack-a-Wilt/Russell strategy back then? I'd assume not due to the "three shots to make two" rule. If not, then Shaq should probably get more credit, relatively speaking.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]

In his 26 career H2H's with Ewing,


How about against David Robinson?


And how about the great Hakeem?

[/QUOTE]
All these guys are far better defenders than Shaq, which makes my point - centers have a bigger defensive impact when compared directly to guards, but the [I][COLOR="blue"]advantage they give their team[/COLOR][/I] depends on how their impact relates to other CENTERS, not guards.

Shaq's team realizes no [I][U]advantage[/U][/I] when his impact is matched or exceeded by the opposing center.. This happened more often for him than it happened for MJ/Pip/Lebron, since they ranked at the TOP defensively at their position, and he didn't - so they gave their team a bigger advantage in defensive impact over the opposing wing, then Shaq's advantage over the opposing center, which means they provided the bigger defensive impact for their team.

Here's an example - look at the Ray Allen vs. Jordan DBPM comparison (-1.3 to Jordan's 1.1) and then look at Ray's teammate, C Ervin Johnson vs. Shaq (2.6 to Shaq's 1.6).. [I][COLOR="Navy"]Now who provided the greater defensive impact to their team??[/COLOR][/I].. Shaq's team realizes no [I][U]advantage[/U][/I] from his rim-protecting impact anytime it's matched or exceeded by the opposing team's center.

Btw, I used the defensive boxscore stat to measure defensive impact because the verbage "[I]defensive box score[/I]" makes it easy to conceptualize the advantage in defensive impact a player can provide.. [I][COLOR="Navy"]But ANY stat/methodology could be used to measure defensive impact[/COLOR][/I] - the point is that we know elite defenders provided their teams with a bigger advantage in defensive impact over their matchup, then Shaq provided over his.

And the same concept applies to Pippen, Lebron or ANY elite defensive player that ranks higher defensively at their position than Shaq, who was not an elite defensive center.

Now obviously, MJ, Pippen and Lebron probably DON'T provide their team with a greater defensive impact than guys like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo - those guys were elite at their position AS WELL, and likely held a greater advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pip/Lebron held over opposing wings... But not Shaq - Shaq was NOT an elite defender like Hakeem/Robinson/Mutombo, so he didn't have a larger advantage in defensive impact over opposing centers than MJ/Pippen/Lebron have over opposing wings.

Shaq was lazy with poor work ethic and only made three 2nd team all defense in 17 years (no 1st teams).. Consequently, his teams were never great defensive teams (ranked in top 6 once in 15 years, thru his Miami days).

There's no guarantee that if you drafted Shaq over Jordan, your team would be better defensively - infact, it's the opposite - Shaq's teams were far worse defensively over the course of his career than Jordan's, even when Shaq had solid defenders like Horace Grant, Eddie Jones, Kobe and Alonzo Mourning.



[U]Shaq's all-defensive teammates:[/U]

Horace Grant 2
Eddie Jones 2
Kobe Bryant 5
Dwayne Wade 1
________________
[I]4 teammates.. 10 times... 4 of 15 seasons with zero all-def teammates[/I]




[U]MJ's all-defensive teammates:[/U]

Scottie Pippen 6
Horace Grant 1
Dennis Rodman 1
_________________
[I]3 teammates... 8 times... 5 of 11 seasons with zero all-def teammates
[/I]



[U]Shaq's team's defensive ranks thru his Miami days:[/U]

1993 Orlando: 12[SIZE="3"]*[/SIZE]
1994 Orlando: 15
1995 Orlando: 13
1996 Orlando: 12
1997 Lakers: 8[SIZE="3"]*[/SIZE]
1998 Lakers: 11
1999 Lakers: 23
2000 Lakers: 1
2001 Lakers: 21
2002 Lakers: 7
2003 Lakers: 19
2004 Lakers: 8
2005 Miami: 6
2006 Miami: 9[SIZE="3"]*[/SIZE]
2007 Miami: 8[SIZE="3"]*[/SIZE]
_________________
11.5 average

[I][I](asterisk means no all-defensive players on team)[/I][/I]



[U]Jordan's team's defensive ranks as Bull[/U]

1985 Bulls: 20[SIZE="3"]*[/SIZE]
1987 Bulls: 11[SIZE="3"]*[/SIZE]
1988 Bulls: 3[SIZE="3"]*[/SIZE]
1989 Bulls: 11[SIZE="3"]*[/SIZE]
1990 Bulls: 19[SIZE="3"]*[/SIZE]
1991 Bulls: 7
1992 Bulls: 4
1993 Bulls: 7
1996 Bulls: 1
1997 Bulls: 4
1998 Bulls: 3
_______________
8.18 average



[B]A couple caveats:[/B]

[I][COLOR="Navy"]1) Shaq had Alonzo Mourning on his team leading the bench in 2006 - Alonzo averaged an amazing 2.7 blocks in 20 minutes per game.

2) Shaq had Horace Grant starting every game for Lakers in 2001, with averages of 9/7, not far off his career averages of 11/8.

3) People say Pippen > Kobe defensively - well apparently, not relative to his competition, as evidenced by Kobe's equivalent number of 1st team all-defensive selections - when evaluating things in basketball, "relative to the competition" is the name of the game.[/COLOR][/I]


[B]Conclusion:[/B] [I]Considering Shaq had all-defensive wing teammates his entire career (and frontcourt player Horace in Orlando), there's no excuse for Shaq NOT being the difference that drove teams to elite defensive status like Hakeem, Robinson, and Ewing's did... Shaq simply wasn't a great defender relative to the elite defenders at his position and vastly underachieved defensively... Furthermore, his lack of work ethic and lazy mentality permeated his teams.

Otoh, Jordan's teams were rated higher defensively his entire career, despite having less all-defensive teammates.. This shouldn't be surprising since Jordan gave his team a bigger defensive boxscore advantage at his position, than Shaq gave his team at his position - Jordan was the far superior defender relative to his peers than Shaq, and his far superior work ethic/mentality rubbed off on the entire team.[/I]
.

[QUOTE=guy]

Agree. I don't think its crazy to say that Shaq even in his peak was overrated due to his historically bad free throw shooting and that there a number of better players, such as 34-35 year old Jordan, who was better as a result. Not a crazy thought.

I'd probably say Shaq has been underrated for the most part though, especially since Wilt and Russell had the same issue. Maybe I'm mistaken, but was there ever a Hack-a-Wilt/Russell strategy back then? I'd assume not due to the "three shots to make two" rule. If not, then Shaq should probably get more credit, relatively speaking.

[/QUOTE]
We know that old MJ carried a [I]FAR[/I] bigger load offensively than prime Shaq - we can say "[I]FAR[/I]" bigger, because that's what the OP data shows - it speaks for itself.

[QUOTE=3ball]We know that old MJ carried a [I]FAR[/I] bigger load offensively than prime Shaq - we can say "[I]FAR[/I]" bigger, because that's what the OP data shows - it speaks for itself.[/QUOTE]

Once again hyperbole centred on cherry picked stats. If we're considering offense it would be wrong to exclude offensive rebounding from your stats.

MJ finals 97: 40.9 %PTS, 32.7 %AST, 14.5 %OREB, -19.7 %TOV

Shaq finals 00: 38.4 %PTS, 10.3 %AST, 51.5 %OREB, -21 %TOV

what kind of drug makes you 3ball?

im legit curious

Stop bumping this thread...it's just embarassing to read the title of this thread. 3ball truly is demented...not because of the fact that he thinks what he thinks...there are a lot of morons here...but because he just...won't...****ing...STOP.

:rolleyes:

.
[COLOR="White"].........[/COLOR][COLOR="darkRed"][SIZE="3"][I][B]Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor[/B][/I][/SIZE][/COLOR]


[COLOR="White"].........................[/COLOR][B]RS[/B][COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR][B]RS 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] [B]PO[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]PO 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]Finals[/B][COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [B]Finals 4th[/B]


[I][B]JORDAN 1997[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]36.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]40.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs]37.7[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]46.3[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]40.9[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]50.4[/url] [B][COLOR="Green"]<--- links to data[/COLOR][/B]
[I][B]JORDAN 1998[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]36.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]42.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs]39.7[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]48.8[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]43.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]49.1[/url]


[I][B]SHAQ 2000[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]35.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]38.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs]34.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]39.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]38.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]43.9[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2001[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]33.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]38.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs]33.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]34.0[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]35.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]26.2[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2002[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]33.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]35.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs]33.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]25.7[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]38.1[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]28.2[/url]




[COLOR="White"].......[/COLOR][COLOR="darkRed"][SIZE="3"][I][B]Percentages of team points [COLOR="Red"]+ assists[/COLOR] while player was on floor[/B][/I][/SIZE][/COLOR]


[COLOR="White"].........................[/COLOR][B]RS[/B][COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR][B]RS 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] [B]PO[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]PO 4th[/B][COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR][B]Finals[/B][COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [B]Finals 4th[/B]


[I][B]JORDAN 1997[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]57.1[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]63.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs]64.0[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]84.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]73.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]91.1[/url]
[I][B]JORDAN 1998[/B][/I]... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]54.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]53.6[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs]59.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]76.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]58.3[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4]69.1[/url]


[I][B]SHAQ 2000[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]53.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]59.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]55.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]48.7[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]64.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2001[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]52.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]56.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.4[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]54.9[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]57.4[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4]59.5[/url]
[I][B]SHAQ 2002[/B][/I]....... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season]51.3[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4]51.9[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs]49.5[/url]..... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4]44.6[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]55.5[/url]...... [url=http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4]54.9[/url]..

[QUOTE=K Xerxes]

If we're considering offense it would be wrong to exclude offensive rebounding from your stats.

MJ finals 97: 40.9 %PTS, 32.7 %AST, 14.5 %OREB, -19.7 %TOV

Shaq finals 00: 38.4 %PTS, 10.3 %AST, 51.5 %OREB, -21 %TOV

[B][COLOR="DarkRed"]Once again hyperbole centred on cherry picked stats.[/COLOR][/B]

[/QUOTE]
Did you read the post you quoted????... We're talking about OFFENSE.

See the previous post for reposted data on proportion of points scored..... and then points + assists.

We can cancel out assists and rebounds if you want and just go by points... Makes no difference...

[COLOR="Navy"][I]MJ carried the bigger load on offense, while providing his team a larger defensive box score advantage over the opposing SG than Shaq had over the opposing center.[/I][/COLOR]

[QUOTE=3ball]Did you read the post you quoted????... We're talking about OFFENSE.[/QUOTE]

All I did was add in offensive rebounding stats. Offensive rebounding is an important part of offense that generates extra possessions. Clearly Shaq pulling down 50+% of his teams OREB greatly benefited his teams offense...

[QUOTE]We can cancel out assists and rebounds if you want and just go by points... Makes no difference...
[/QUOTE]

no you cannot just 'cancel out' assists and rebounds. My point is that you cannot just excude what doesn't favor MJ and add up the rest.

And in fact if you compare only points, MJ does have an advantage (unsuprisingly as the greatest scorer), but it's not by much in the RS, PO and finals. He's ahead like 2-3% each time, which does not constitute as 'far' greater offensive load. My contention is that you dismiss this as a foregone conclusion, when it is in actual fact close and certainly debatable.

[QUOTE=K Xerxes]

All I did was add in offensive rebounding stats. Offensive rebounding is an important part of offense that generates extra possessions. [B]Clearly Shaq pulling down 50+% of his teams OREB greatly benefited his teams offense..[/B].

[/quote]
Okay, that's fine.. We can just look at scoring, since MJ has the assist edge and Shaq has the rebound edge.


[QUOTE=K Xerxes]

And in fact if you compare only points, MJ does have an advantage (unsuprisingly as the greatest scorer), [B][COLOR="Red"]but it's not by much in the RS, PO and finals. He's ahead like 2-3% each time[/COLOR][/B], which does not constitute as 'far' greater offensive load. My contention is that you dismiss this as a foregone conclusion, [B][COLOR="Red"]when it is in actual fact close[/COLOR][/B] and certainly debatable.

[/QUOTE]
Bullshit - you act like I can't see the damn numbers right there in the post above.

In the "[I]playoffs[/I]" and "[I]Finals [/I]" columns, 1998 Jordan has between 5-8% advantage over any Shaq year, not 2-3%.

In the "[I]playoffs 4th[/I]" column, 1998 Jordan has 9-24% advantage over Shaq depending on the year... And in the "[I]Finals 4th[/I]" column, Jordan has a 6% advantage over 2000 Shaq, and literally a 24-26% edge over 2001 and 2002 Shaq.. So stop lying and saying it's close - you sound like a politician.

So again, MJ carried a significantly bigger load on offense, while providing his team a larger defensive box score advantage over the opposing SG than Shaq had over the opposing center.

[QUOTE=3ball]Okay, that's fine.. We can just look at scoring, since MJ has the assist edge and Shaq has the rebound edge.[/QUOTE]
Except that Shaq's rebounding edge is larger than Jordan's assist edge...

[QUOTE=24-Inch_Chrome]Except that Shaq's rebounding edge is larger than Jordan's assist edge...[/QUOTE]
I bet 3ball has an argument saved for this :lol

[QUOTE=24-Inch_Chrome]

Except that Shaq's rebounding edge is larger than Jordan's assist edge...

[/QUOTE]
Only against old MJ - prime MJ destroys him - remember, we're arguing this whole time about OLD Jordan vs. prime Shaq... (that's the real beauty of it.. :D )

And I prefer that old MJ's big advantages are in the scoring and assist categories - which they are - while also providing his team with a larger defensive box score advantage over the opposing SG, than Shaq has over the opposing center.

[QUOTE=3ball]Only against old MJ - prime MJ destroys him - remember, we're arguing this whole time about OLD Jordan vs. prime Shaq... (that's the real beauty of it.. :D )

And I prefer that old MJ's big advantages are in the scoring and assist categories - which they are - while also providing his team with a larger defensive box score advantage over the opposing SG, than Shaq has over the opposing center.[/QUOTE]
But you're talking about old MJ here. If you're arguing prime MJ > prime Shaq, of course you've got a great case, but the rebounding edge prime Shaq has over old MJ is greater than old MJ's assist edge. They're different discussions, that's the point I'm trying to make.

[QUOTE=24-Inch_Chrome]But you're talking about old MJ here. If you're arguing prime MJ > prime Shaq, of course you've got a great case, but the rebounding edge prime Shaq has over old MJ is greater than old MJ's assist edge. They're different discussions, that's the point I'm trying to make.[/QUOTE]
Again, that's fine - old MJ has the big scoring AND assist edge, and Shaq has the rebounding edge.

Advantage old MJ.

[U][SIZE="4"][COLOR="DarkRed"][B]Summary of the dialogue ITT:[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE][/U]


[B][COLOR="blue"]3BALL[/COLOR]: Old MJ carried a bigger load than prime Shaq, since he scored a higher proportion of his team's points than Shaq.


[COLOR="red"]OTHER POSTERS[/COLOR]: Even 2000 Shaq?... No way... b-b-but.. fine then... what about assists?


[B][COLOR="Blue"]3BALL[/COLOR][/B]: MJ carried an even bigger load when you include assists.


[COLOR="Red"][B]OTHER POSTERS[/B][/COLOR]: Whatever... **** you.... Nobody cares what you say... Oh wait, I have a counter - defense... Shaq had a far bigger defensive impact.... hahaha... So THERE


[B][COLOR="Blue"]3BALL[/COLOR][/B]: Actually, the defensive impact that Shaq gave his team was wiped away and superceded when he faced better defensive centers, like Hakeem, David Robinson, Dikembe or Alonzo - all these guys gave their team greater defensive impacts.

This didn't happen for Jordan because he was the best defensive SG in the league... On average, he gave his team a bigger defensive boxscore advantage at his position, than Shaq gave his team at his position - as an example, look at the Kobe vs. Jordan DBPM comparison (-0.5 to Jordan's 1.1) and then look at Longley vs. Shaq (1.7 to Shaq's 1.6).


[B][COLOR="Red"]OTHER POSTERS[/COLOR][/B]: b-b-but.... huh?... wtf


[COLOR="blue"][B]3BALL[/B][/COLOR]: Now I'll concede that if you replaced Jordan with Hakeem or Robinson, the Bulls would be a better defensive team than with Jordan - but again, those guys were the best defensive players at their position just like Jordan was, and their defensive advantage over other centers was likely bigger than Jordan's advantage over other SG's.

So it isn't remarkable that replacing Jordan with them would lead to a better defensive team... But not Shaq - he was only 2nd team all-defense 3 times in his 17 year career (never 1st team) and his teams rarely ranked near the top defensively - and again, his defensive boxscore advantage over the opposing center was less than the defensive boxscore advantage Jordan had over his matchup at SG, so Jordan was giving his team a bigger defensive impact in that regard.


[COLOR="Red"][B]OTHER POSTERS[/B][/COLOR]: **** you... You ****


[B][COLOR="Blue"]3BALL[/COLOR][/B]: Sorry guys... There's no guarantee that if you drafted Shaq over Jordan, your team would be better defensively - infact, it's the opposite - Shaq's teams were far worse defensively over the course of his career than Jordan's, even though Shaq had solid defenders like Horace Grant, Eddie Jones, Kobe and Alonzo Mourning.


[B][COLOR="Red"]OTHER POSTERS[/COLOR][/B]: You're a ***********... Nobody cares about your posts.... :mad: ....... Oh wait - I thought of another counter - rebounding... So even though Shaq scored a lower proportion of his team's points and assists, and even though he gave his team a smaller defensive boxscore advantage over the opposing center than the advantage Jordan provided in his matchup at shooting guard, Shaq got more REBOUNDS.... YAAAAY!!!!!... He got more rebounds!!!... :rockon: ..... So that makes him better and carrying the bigger load, despite the disadvantages on offense and defense... Whew.... That was a close one 3ball.


[B]3BALL[/B]: :roll: [/B]
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