Tim Duncan is greater than Shaq, and here are the numbers to PROVE it

one thing alot of ppl seem to forget is, duncan is not about numbers and padding the scoresheet, he does enough ftw and shares the load with the supporting cast.

actually a better argument would take MPG into consideration and adjusted.

it looks like Tim Duncan is on his way to get his 4th title :bowdown:

Tim's a little low profile, but he's definitely better than Shaq!


________________
Kareem
[URL=http://www.who-sells-it.com/cy/ford-motor-company-usa-780/ford-mustang-07-5250.html]Ford Mustang 07 by Ford Motor Company USA[/URL]

Terrific game by Tim Duncan today against the Suns. He did just enough to get the victory. All those blocked shots and the way he started the 3rd quarter to ignate the later comeback. :cheers:

[QUOTE=beau_boy04]Terrific game by Tim Duncan today against the Suns. He did just enough to get the victory. All those blocked shots and the way he started the 3rd quarter to ignate the later comeback. :cheers:[/QUOTE]

Horry did just enough to get the victory...

homer

Duncan is more low key, but Shaq in his prime was simply more dominant IMO. People have very short memories it seems.

He was completely unguardable.

[QUOTE=Dhoopster]Tim's a little low profile, but he's definitely better than Shaq!


________________
Kareem
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are u Poeticism707? :oldlol:

[QUOTE=rzp]are u Poeticism707? :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

Well if it isn't my old pal RZP!!!

:cheers:

[QUOTE=Soundwave]Duncan is more low key, but Shaq in his prime was simply more dominant IMO. People have very short memories it seems.

He was completely unguardable.[/QUOTE]

Yeah. very short memories. People need to go back and watch a game from Shaqs prime, also consider what he did before the league changed the rules where you can use "illegal defense" It was completely unfair those days. I think Duncan will probably end up with more rings but as far as what they did in the game, Shaq was just flat out better...a straight wrecking ball. The best thing about these two is that when it comes to the way they perform on the court, they do what is best for the team...which usually means the ball starts with touching the ball inside...

you have to remember that shaq numbers are decreasing and that is effecting his career #s Duncan hasnt started to do that yet so wait Duncan is 35 and his #s decrease badly and than lets compare careers

[quote=Soundwave]Duncan is more low key, but [b]Shaq in his prime was simply more dominant[/b] IMO. People have very short memories it seems.

He was completely unguardable.[/quote]


Well I wont comment on who is better because that's basically left up to individual perceptions. However I do feel regarding Shaq that people always say "he is the most dominant" etc... but I've always felt that when you are the BIGGEST thing on the floor you should dominate!!! IMO it doesn't take that much talent when you're bigger than everyone else out there and can physically dominate them without much effort.

You guys can say he's better than Duncan and that stats dont matter or whatever, but none of you can honestly say that with Shaq size and strength he should have done a heck of a lot more than he has.

Also, a question for those of you who say the difference is Shaq is a center and Duncan is a forward. If Shaq was the most dominant ever as claimed why is it that he wasnt able to make first all defensive team or any of those other things listed? He's the MOST DOMINATE EVER so what difference does it make that he plays center and Duncan plays forward? He should have DOMINATED the position of center correct? :confusedshrug:

Just my thoughts

[QUOTE=Laker4Lyfe]but I've always felt that when you are the BIGGEST thing on the floor you should dominate!!! IMO it doesn't take that much talent when you're bigger than everyone else out there and can physically dominate them without much effort.[/QUOTE]Then Mark Eaton, George Muressan, Pavel Podkozin should have been all-stars because they will be the biggest players when they were on the court. For that matter, any of the WWE wrestlers over 6'10" could dominate the NBA. The Big Show would be the GOAT then at over 7' 0" and 450 lbs. :banghead:

Don't try to downplay Shaq's talent just because don't like him. It takes more than just size and strength to make a great big man in basketball.






[QUOTE]but none of you can honestly say that with Shaq size and strength he should have done a heck of a lot more than he has.[/QUOTE]Shaq probably could have done more with what he has, but don't you think 4 NBA Championships, 1 regular season MVP (should have been at least 3), 3 Finals MVP, and 2 Scoring Title's ain't that bad for an "overweight/lazy" player.





[QUOTE]Also, a question for those of you who say the difference is Shaq is a center and Duncan is a forward. If Shaq was the most dominant ever as claimed why is it that he wasnt able to make first all defensive team or any of those other things listed?[/QUOTE]Let's see. There is only one choice for Center on the all-defensive team, while there are 2 choices for forwards. That gives Duncan twice the chance as Shaq. And I don't think Duncan would have been on all those 1st team all-defense teams as a center with Mutombo, Ben Wallace, Alonzo Mourning, David Robinson, and Olajuwon as your competitors. And the term "Most Dominant Ever" was mainly about how Shaq could not be stopped on the offensive end. That didn't mean Shaq was a slouch on defense. As a Laker fan, you should have seen Shaq at his prime (1999-2003) when opposing players would think twice before they drove in the lane. Again, I know it hurts that Shaq won a Championship after leaving The Lakers, but the truth sometimes hurts.








[QUOTE]He's the MOST DOMINATE EVER so what difference does it make that he plays center and Duncan plays forward? He should have DOMINATED the position of center correct?[/QUOTE]And he did. The only center that could compete with Shaq during his time was Olajuwon and this was before Shaq's prime. And it was during Shaq's prime that no one could compete with him.

[QUOTE=poeticism707]Well if it isn't my old pal RZP!!!

:cheers:[/QUOTE]

:cheers:

[quote=Batchoy]

Again, I know it hurts that Shaq won a Championship after leaving The Lakers, but the truth sometimes hurts.


[/quote]

Why would I be hurt? This was just a stupid thing to say. Anyway you have your opinion and I have mine, absolutely nothing wrong with that.

And by the way, I felt the same way about Shaq when he WAS a Laker. I can't tell you the countless arguments I have got into with people here in LA regarding Shaq, ESPECIALLY when the Lakers where winning.

So never assume you know what a persons motives are.:no: You know what they say about that word anyway.

[QUOTE=Laker4Lyfe]Well I wont comment on who is better because that's basically left up to individual perceptions. However I do feel regarding Shaq that people always say "he is the most dominant" etc... but I've always felt that when you are the BIGGEST thing on the floor you should dominate!!! IMO it doesn't take that much talent when you're bigger than everyone else out there and can physically dominate them without much effort.[/QUOTE]

You're an idiot. Shaq dominance wasn't just based on his size. Whats amazing is what he was able to do at his size. Look at his amazing footwork. It might be 20 years until we see a guy who is 350 pounds who has quick footwork like that. Also, how often do you see a guy that big who can get the ball and just go up and score right away??? Take a look at guys like Mutombo, Zo, Big Z, basically, pick 99% of any center you want from the history of the league. Now think about slow they are when it comes to gathering up the ball and then going up for a dunk or lay up, plus they were all much lighter than Shaq. Plus Shaq did this at 350 pounds!!! I used to always cringe when I saw centers get the ball under the rim, and then take what felt like 2 seconds just to secure the ball and bend their knees to get ready to jump. Just because you're big it doesn't mean you should kill everyone. He's an anomaly. He really is. A guy that size who can get the ball, take a jumpstop and go up and bang it whoever is in front of him...nobody has ever been able to do that the same way. There is a reason why Shaq has gotten doubled teamed more than any other big man in the history of the league.

[QUOTE=Force]You're an idiot. Shaq dominance wasn't just based on his size. Whats amazing is what he was able to do at his size. Look at his amazing footwork. It might be 20 years until we see a guy who is 350 pounds who has quick footwork like that. Also, how often do you see a guy that big who can get the ball and just go up and score right away??? Take a look at guys like Mutombo, Zo, Big Z, basically, pick 99% of any center you want from the history of the league. Now think about slow they are when it comes to gathering up the ball and then going up for a dunk or lay up, plus they were all much lighter than Shaq. Plus Shaq did this at 350 pounds!!! I used to always cringe when I saw centers get the ball under the rim, and then take what felt like 2 seconds just to secure the ball and bend their knees to get ready to jump. Just because you're big it doesn't mean you should kill everyone. He's an anomaly. He really is. A guy that size who can get the ball, take a jumpstop and go up and bang it whoever is in front of him...nobody has ever been able to do that the same way. There is a reason why Shaq has gotten doubled teamed more than any other big man in the history of the league.[/QUOTE]

Dominant or no, his career numbers and accomplishments don't lie, and Tim Duncan has had easily had the better career (see page 1 of this thread for comparisons). Also, don't use unprovable, subjective jargon like "Shaq has gotten double teamed more than...in the history of the league." It's too subjective, and destroys your credibility.

[QUOTE=D

[QUOTE=D

:pimp:

[QUOTE=poeticism707]:pimp:[/QUOTE]
I like how you're ignoring Don's post where he owned you...

Shaq was better in his prime but Duncan may still end up having the better career. Normally I give it to the guy with the best prime, like Isiah over Stockton, but since both these guys are proven champions have been the best in the league, if Duncan does it for longer and wins more rings I gotta give the better career title to him. It'll take a couple more great seasons though.

Duncan not winning a single DPOY award in his career yet is a huge travesty.

Spurs defensive rankings
97-98: 2nd
98-99: 1st
99-00: 1st
00-01: 1st
01-02: 1st
02-03: 3rd
03-04: 1st
04-05: 1st
05-06: 1st
06-07: 2nd

Over that span, only two players have averaged more defensive rpg, and only four players have averaged more bpg.

Duncan should have multiple DPOY awards by now. It's a shame the best defensive player of his generation by far may never have a DPOY to show for it. In fact, he's only twice finished as high as 3rd in DPOY voting.

[QUOTE=beau_boy04]Duncan not winning a single DPOY award in his career yet is a huge travesty.

Spurs defensive rankings
97-98: 2nd
98-99: 1st
99-00: 1st
00-01: 1st
01-02: 1st
02-03: 3rd
03-04: 1st
04-05: 1st
05-06: 1st
06-07: 2nd

Over that span, only two players have averaged more defensive rpg, and only four players have averaged more bpg.

Duncan should have multiple DPOY awards by now. It's a shame the best defensive player of his generation by far may never have a DPOY to show for it. In fact, he's only twice finished as high as 3rd in DPOY voting.[/QUOTE]

Are you basing it off of PPG? Or a combination of stats. Cause I believe we actually ended this year 1st in points allowed. Not sure though.

^^

i think having bowen on his team steals potential voters from him and vice versa. i don't think it's right, but i do think that's the case. the credit gets spread between them.

[QUOTE=dejordan]^^

i think having bowen on his team steals potential voters from him and vice versa. i don't think it's right, but i do think that's the case. the credit gets spread between them.[/QUOTE]

Which is kinda stupid, because the only reason Bruce Bowen can be so aggressive is because he knows Timmy will be there to help him if he messes up. Tim creates jump shots for Bowen to defend because people just really don't want to take it inside on him.

[QUOTE=Timmy D for MVP]Which is kinda stupid, because the only reason Bruce Bowen can be so aggressive is because he knows Timmy will be there to help him if he messes up. Tim creates jump shots for Bowen to defend because people just really don't want to take it inside on him.[/QUOTE]
completely agree. bruce is able to body up like crazy because it barely matters if he gets beat off the dribble.

:sleeping

As to Don's misguided attempt to explain away Tim Duncan's many more first team all nba and first team all defense selection, consider the following. Just because TD had 2 opportunities (forward) to Shaq's 1 on first team all nba (the center), doesn't mean Shaq was robbed or TD benefited at all. Consider, since TD has been in the league 10 years, with 9 first team all nba selections. When in that time has he EVER utilized the "2nd" forward position, meaning another forward was ranked ahead of him? Only once, and most and arguably twice: last year injured with plantarfaciatius in his foot (2nd team all nba, ONLY year he's missed it), and very arguably the year KG won MVP (2004, hence making TD the "second forward" in the NBA, if he were Shaq at center he wouldn't have made it). Even with these two exceptions, and one being very arguable, Tim Duncan would still lead Shaq in first team all nba 8-7, and that's in 5 less years.

Also, we don't even need to discuss First Team All Defense, where Tim Duncan destroys Shaq 7-0, and Shaq has a pathetic 3 CAREER 2nd team all defense. Shaq is so bad defensively, he would never have made the first team even at forward either. Examining their careers comparatively, there can be only one conclusion: Tim Duncan is greater than Shaq, and here are the numbers to prove it! (TD is on the verge of winning another title and finals mvp this year, which will be icing on the cake.):cheers:

Duncan'll have the same amount of rings after this year. I think Shaq will still always be better.

Stop bringing this **** back up poeticism. It's dead. No one wants to argue with you, and no one cares how you use emotions ever second posts because you have nothing else to say.

[QUOTE=AtTheDriveIn]Stop bringing this **** back up poeticism. It's dead. No one wants to argue with you, and no one cares how you use emotions ever second posts because you have nothing else to say.[/QUOTE]

Please review my posts on the previous page alone. I basically submitted a doctoral thesis, and you respond with 3 sentences and four asterisks, criticizing me for emoticons. If you cannot see the stupidity in this, please do not bother to respond, nor darken the logic of this post with your low intellect. :violin:

[QUOTE=poeticism707]As to Don's misguided attempt to explain away Tim Duncan's many more first team all nba and first team all defense selection, consider the following. Just because TD had 2 opportunities (forward) to Shaq's 1 on first team all nba (the center), doesn't mean Shaq was robbed or TD benefited at all. Consider, since TD has been in the league 10 years, with 9 first team all nba selections. When in that time has he EVER utilized the "2nd" forward position, meaning another forward was ranked ahead of him? Only once, and most and arguably twice: last year injured with plantarfaciatius in his foot (2nd team all nba, ONLY year he's missed it), and very arguably the year KG won MVP (2004, hence making TD the "second forward" in the NBA, if he were Shaq at center he wouldn't have made it). Even with these two exceptions, and one being very arguable, Tim Duncan would still lead Shaq in first team all nba 8-7, and that's in 5 less years.

Also, we don't even need to discuss First Team All Defense, where Tim Duncan destroys Shaq 7-0, and Shaq has a pathetic 3 CAREER 2nd team all defense. Shaq is so bad defensively, he would never have made the first team even at forward either. Examining their careers comparatively, there can be only one conclusion: Tim Duncan is greater than Shaq, and here are the numbers to prove it! (TD is on the verge of winning another title and finals mvp this year, [B]which will be icing on the cake[/B].):cheers:[/QUOTE]

That's not icing...that's the product of you getting a little too excited about Tim Duncan.

[QUOTE=poeticism707]Please review my posts on the previous page alone. I basically submitted a doctoral thesis, and you respond with 3 sentences and four asterisks, criticizing me for emoticons. If you cannot see the stupidity in this, please do not bother to respond, nor darken the logic of this post with your low intellect. :violin:[/QUOTE]

Ok fine, I understand that you've done a superb job of arguing this, but if everyone else is over it, why aren't you?

You have no further arguments, that's why you put emotions there instead. There's nothing more to argue, you'd just be going around in circles over and over again.

[QUOTE=AtTheDriveIn]Ok fine, I understand that you've done a superb job of arguing this, but if everyone else is over it, why aren't you?

You have no further arguments, that's why you put emotions there instead. There's nothing more to argue, you'd just be going around in circles over and over again.[/QUOTE]

Now this fair criticism!:cheers:

However, there might much more to add, and very soon: another title for Tim Duncan, and another Finals MVP.

To a lesser degree, it is like arguing between Hank Aaron and Barry Bonds (assuming he didn't use steroids). Do you take the player who was very consistent and always hit just around 40 HR's a year with no season too spectacular. Or do you take the player who registered seasons of 30/30, 73 HRs, the most walks of all time, the most home runs in a five year span, etc.?

Duncan = Hank Aaron
Shaq = Barry Bonds

[QUOTE=BlackMoses]To a lesser degree, it is like arguing between Hank Aaron and Barry Bonds (assuming he didn't use steroids). Do you take the player who was very consistent and always hit just around 40 HR's a year with no season too spectacular. Or do you take the player who registered seasons of 30/30, 73 HRs, the most walks of all time, the most home runs in a five year span, etc.?

Duncan = Hank Aaron
Shaq = Barry Bonds[/QUOTE]

wrong...Shaq is a very consistent player...check his stats ...like 10 years 25+/10+...Shaq did not played only is his title runs :no: (u have a short memory or u are a kid like poeticism)...Shaq just didnt played in very consistent teams like TD

[QUOTE=rzp]wrong...Shaq is a very consistent player...check his stats ...like 10 years 25+/10+...Shaq did not played only is his title runs :no: (u have a short memory or u are a kid like poeticism)...Shaq just didnt played in very consistent teams like TD[/QUOTE]

Barry was a consistently great player too. What I'm trying to say is that Shaq has the far superior prime compared to Duncan. While both players are great overall.

[QUOTE=BlackMoses]To a lesser degree, it is like arguing between Hank Aaron and Barry Bonds (assuming he didn't use steroids). Do you take the player who was very consistent and always hit just around 40 HR's a year with no season too spectacular. Or do you take the player who registered seasons of 30/30, 73 HRs, the most walks of all time, the most home runs in a five year span, etc.?

Duncan = Hank Aaron
Shaq = Barry Bonds[/QUOTE]


Hank Aaron? :roll: Barry Bonds is better than Hank Aaron...not even a debate. Barry Bonds is this generations best baseball player and has an argument for GOAT. Horrible example...try using another sport because you dont know where Hank Aaron is ranked in terms of greatness. Damn sure aint on Bonds level.

[QUOTE=GOBB]Hank Aaron? :roll: Barry Bonds is better than Hank Aaron...not even a debate. Barry Bonds is this generations best baseball player and has an argument for GOAT. Horrible example...try using another sport because you dont know where Hank Aaron is ranked in terms of greatness. Damn sure aint on Bonds level.[/QUOTE]

i totally agree with you on this.. bonds is on another level...

alot of people dont want to watch him break the record, or dont care.. you literally have to be in denial of sports history to not want to see him break the record.. its ridiculous

[QUOTE=poeticism707]:applause:[/QUOTE]

You're clapping hands unaware Barry Bonds is a better baseball player than Hank Aaron. It totally contradicts your support about Duncan being greater than Shaq. :roll: