Where would you put LeBron James on the all time list? Honest answers, please.

[QUOTE=elementally morale]As for who you think the best is, no such criteria. It's not about most points. Or most rings. Those things are measurable. Best is not.






Okay then. So there are some people who by your standards have 'unrealistic opinions'. So what? This is only your opinion. And I may find (I actually do find) this opinion of yours rather unrealistic. Labeling others' opinions unrealistic is not being realistic about what the word opinion means.

I can tell you that there are 'no criteria imaginable' by which you can think LeBron is top 2 all time. And? What does it mean? Nothing. There are people who DO think he is top 2 all time.[/QUOTE]
I 100% disagree with you. People can have whatever opinion they want, they can think Jordan wasn't a top 50 player of all time, that Kwame Brown was more dominant than Shaq, that Ben Simmons is a bigger 3 point threat than Curry; doesn't change the fact that all empirical evidence would point to them being wrong

four inches erect, but consistently rock hard.

About 90,000 people voted on ESPN, and it was 60% Kobe vs 40% Lebron in 2017, Kobe dominated the Facebook poll as well. If Kobe's 12th all-time, there's no way Lebron's actually top 10.

How can you have "honest answers" and "outside of top 15" in the same sentence...Sheesh. So dumb.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents]I 100% disagree with you. People can have whatever opinion they want, they can think Jordan wasn't a top 50 player of all time, that Kwame Brown was more dominant than Shaq, that Ben Simmons is a bigger 3 point threat than Curry; doesn't change the fact that all empirical evidence would point to them being wrong[/QUOTE]


People... actually most people believe in God. They are of the opinion that God exists (or existed) created (and governs) the Universe.

Is believing in God realistic or unrealistic in your opinion?

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]In order to buy a borderline top 10 or not top 15 type of ranking I'd really have to see your top 10 and discuss it with you to see if you stay consistent throughout. Most "lists" get too cute with criteria and end up stepping on their own feet. For the record i can't fathom Lebron being simply borderline top 10.[/QUOTE]


I gave you my reasons in this thread in post number 71.

[QUOTE=elementally morale]I gave you my reasons in this thread in post number 71.[/QUOTE]

No.

How can you have "honest answers" and "outside of top 15" in the same sentence...Sheesh. So dumb.

Top 5 for sure ... and in that or just below Magic / Bird class

[QUOTE=elementally morale]People... actually most people believe in God. They are of the opinion that God exists (or existed) created (and governs) the Universe.

Is believing in God realistic or unrealistic in your opinion?[/QUOTE]
That's a question that definitely deserves a longer answer than what I'm going to give, but to summarize it semi briefly, I find it very unrealistic to believe in god. There's absolutely no evidence to support the claim, it's an ancient belief from thousands of years ago, back in a time where people didn't have access to the information we now have to help explain the world around us. It's reminiscent to believing back then that the earth was flat (in b4 Kyrie) or that the sun revolved around us and the earth was the center of the universe. The reason I think it's sustained all these years is because it's profitable to promote that belief, and it genuinely does provide comfort to people.

So I don't judge, if you believe in god that's your right, but in my opinion, especially in this day & age, with all the information we have access to, I don't see why believing in god should have any more validity than believing in santa or the tooth fairy.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents]That's a question that definitely deserves a longer answer than what I'm going to give, but to summarize it semi briefly, I find it very unrealistic to believe in god. There's absolutely no evidence to support the claim, it's an ancient belief from thousands of years ago, back in a time where people didn't have access to the information we now have to help explain the world around us. It's reminiscent to believing back then that the earth was flat (in b4 Kyrie) or that the sun revolved around us and the earth was the center of the universe. The reason I think it's sustained all these years is because it's profitable to promote that belief, and it genuinely does provide comfort to people.

So I don't judge, if you believe in god that's your right, but in my opinion, especially in this day & age, with all the information we have access to, I don't see why believing in god should have any more validity than believing in santa or the tooth fairy.

What are your thoughts on the matter?[/QUOTE]


My thoughts are rather complex and lead us through quantum mechanics and taoism. (I'm not kidding.) So I'm not going there now. I'm not religious. Faith in *something* is different... but it is besides the point I was trying to make.

You personally do not believe in God. Fine. But you do know that lots of people do. The vast majority of people do, actually. Believing in God is not any more reasonable than believing LeBron James is not a top 10 player. Some people think so.


When you are getting closer and closer to something extreme there will be fewer and fewer believers. But there will be a few, still. You will find somebody somewhere who will say Kobe Bryant is a better 3 point shooter than Steph Curry... he was just guarded differently, was unlucky, too many bailout shots, etc. There won't be many such people but there will be some.


Why did I not include the 'LeBron is not even top 100' option? See above, that's why. I decided 'not top 15' is extreme enough. I find not even top 15 as extreme as goat. And I was the one creating the poll... so my opinion counts. :oldlol:

My Top 15


#1: MJ

#2-4: Chamberlain, Russell, Curry

#5: Kareem

#6-8: Shaq, Magic, Mikan

#9-15: Bird, Duncan, KD, Kobe, Lebron, Hakeem, West

Top 15 AT BEST.

[QUOTE=Big164]My Top 15

#1: MJ
#2-4: Chamberlain, Russell, Curry
#5: Kareem
#6-8: Shaq, Magic, Mikan
#9-15: Bird, Duncan, KD, Kobe, Lebron, Hakeem, West[/QUOTE]


I'm all for opinions and everything... but Curry over Kareem is... mhmmm... what's the idea behind it?

At the moment:

90 votes
677 points
avg: 7.52



without extremes (goat and not top 15)

63 votes
429 points
avg: 6.81

LeBron is 7-8 ish per ISH

[QUOTE=aj1987]As I said, we might disagree, but I wouldn't mind having a discussion with you. At least you'll bring in some facts into the argument. That's my point.[/QUOTE]


AJ, facts are easy and not all people are simpletons like you. We want to dig deeper. We seek challenges so we analyze whats behind those facts coz thats where the fun is. Coz if facts is all we need, then why bother debating. Everyone will arrive at the same conclusion.

He's somewhere in the 50-100 range, closer to 100. Multiple Finals defeats in devastating fashion and the fact he never won a ring as the best player are reasons he isn't any higher.

[QUOTE=masonanddixon]He's somewhere in the 50-100 range, closer to 100. Multiple Finals defeats in devastating fashion and the fact he never won a ring as the best player are reasons he isn't any higher.[/QUOTE]
Congrats tbh. This comment was so stupid and toxic that it ended the thread.

[QUOTE=Akeem34TheDream]Congrats tbh. This comment was so stupid and toxic that it ended the thread.[/QUOTE]

Until now. :)

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]In order to buy a borderline top 10 or not top 15 type of ranking I'd really have to see your top 10 and discuss it with you to see if you stay consistent throughout. Most "lists" get too cute with criteria and end up stepping on their own feet. For the record i can't fathom Lebron being simply borderline top 10.[/QUOTE]

MJ, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Shaq, Olajuwon, Duncan are the guys I'd take over LeBron without thinking about it at all.

Guys like Oscar, Kobe, David Robinson, Isiah Thomas, Jerry West are all in the same vicinity. I don't put much stock in today's stats because the league is soft. I believe if you give these guys the green light to switch franchises as they see fit, a front office willing to move any and everybody by the trading deadline if these guys aren't happy, a super soft conference to dominate every year and a teflon coating that deflects any blame for anything, these guys would be just or more successful as LeBron has been in their own way.

I don't know where guys like Elgin Baylor, Bob Petite stand. I don't know much about them but they can't be too far behind.

Guys like Wade, Durant, Curry, Kawhi Leonard, Drexler, Dirk, Garnett, Barkley, Pippen, Moses Malone aren't that far behind, if at all.

They can't out-Lebron James Lebron James. They may not lead their team in every category (which has some negative consequences that are rarely spoken about) but I think they'd be just as successful if not more so in their own way if given similar circumstances.

Statistically speaking, we have a very nice distribution of votes. Deleting votes in a category doesn't change the average by more than 1.8 Deleting pairs of categories (extremes and then closer to the middle, etc.) doesn't change the average by more than 1.


Which means the results are pretty good in terms of reflecting the average voter.

After 92 votes, 698 points and an average of 7.6

It is reliable.

This forum has somehow gotten worst:oldlol:

Someone please list 10 players with a better career than Lebron, while maintaining consistency and some rationale.

While I personally don

[QUOTE=Bankaii]This forum has somehow gotten worst:oldlol:

Someone please list 10 players with a better career than Lebron, while maintaining consistency and some rationale.

While I personally don

[QUOTE=elementally morale]Some of us already posted what you ask for. Read before you type.

On another note, nothing voids an opinion based voting. Just because you think something is not valid... that's an opinion, too. In this case, yours.

You can change the outcome exactly one way: via voting.[/QUOTE]
You took out 2 categories, both unrealistic, and averaged it out.
You didn

[QUOTE=Bankaii]You took out 2 categories, both unrealistic, and averaged it out.
You didn’t weigh anything, at least not from the skimming I did, nor did you factor in the fact that saying Lebron is top 15 or top 10ish is just as asinine as saying he’s GOAT.

That’s what voids your shitty poll.[/QUOTE]


You are not a science guy, are you? :oldlol:

Most people chose the top 10ish option. You want to take away that option because you don't like it. Well... it doesn't work that way. Most people chose something you don't like... so it's invalid. LOL

Bye.

[QUOTE=Bankaii]You took out 2 categories, both unrealistic, and averaged it out.
You didn’t weigh anything, at least not from the skimming I did, nor did you factor in the fact that saying Lebron is top 15 or top 10ish is just as asinine as saying he’s GOAT.

That’s what voids your shitty poll.[/QUOTE]
What if lebron stayed in Cleveland his whole career and had zero rings right now

He'd have a small statistical edge over guys like Malone or Dirk, but no case otherwise, and he'd be behind bird and Duncan by healthy margin

But even with the team-hopping - the same fate would've happened if ray and kyrie missed those legacy-saving shots instead of making them

And that's without considering all his flaws.. i.e. no clutch for the majority of his career, crushes teammates, non-goat offenses, hard to build around his ball-dominance skillset, etc, etc

So no, it's real easy to put lebron outside the top 15

[QUOTE=elementally morale]You are not a science guy, are you? :oldlol:

Most people chose the top 10ish option. You want to take away that option because you don't like it. Well... it doesn't work that way. Most people chose something you don't like... so it's invalid. LOL

Bye.[/QUOTE]
A science guy?:oldlol: You made a poll that already had unrealistic options. You keep crying about opinions but an opinion with no factual backing whatsoever isn

[QUOTE=Bankaii]A science guy?:oldlol: You made a poll that already had unrealistic options. You keep crying about opinions but an opinion with no factual backing whatsoever isn’t an opinion, it’s bullshit.

I can make a legitimate argue for Lebron being top 3. Do the same for Lebron being top 10ish (9-11) I assume, or better yet, top 15. Go ahead and try to explain 15 guys over Lebron. I’ll wait.[/QUOTE]



See post number 71. I already did it. Others, too. Read before you type.

You don't understand what the word 'opinion' means. You have a problem.

An opinion is an opinion without any backing. You may find it a stupid opinion... that's fine. But still an opinion. It is worth the same as your opinion. 1 vote.

That's how opinion based elections work. More than half of all voters think LeBron is top 10ish or worse. You want to say it is not valid. It is though. According to the majority.

I think below Top 10ish is about as bad as #1. So doing some math here...

To get a representative vote, we need to take all the #1 votes and move them down to the Top 3 category and take everything below Top 10ish and move it up to that category.

There are an adjusted 27 votes for Top 3 (which really means 2 or 3 all time).

27*2.5 = 67.5 points

There are 17 votes for Top 5 (which really means 4 or 5 all time since it isn't top 3).

17*4.5 = 76.5 points

There are an adjusted 50 votes for Top 10ish. Obviously 6-10 count in the top 10, and let's say it extends down to #12 before crossing into the Top 15 category, for an average of 9.

50*9 = 450 points

594 total points divided by 94 voters = 6.31 points (rounded to 6th all time)

This is probably a fair consensus of his rank.

What a worthless, flawed poll. The fact "outside of top 15" is an option is proof enough. Not to mention what sort of numeric ranking do you give for "top 10ish" :lol

Ugh what a waste of time :facepalm

[QUOTE='Toine=MVP]I think below Top 10ish is about as bad as #1. So doing some math here...

To get a representative vote, we need to take all the #1 votes and move them down to the Top 3 category and take everything below Top 10ish and move it up to that category.

There are an adjusted 27 votes for Top 3 (which really means 2 or 3 all time).

27*2.5 = 67.5 points

There are 17 votes for Top 5 (which really means 4 or 5 all time since it isn't top 3).

17*4.5 = 76.5 points

There are an adjusted 50 votes for Top 10ish. Obviously 6-10 count in the top 10, and let's say it extends down to #12 before crossing into the Top 15 category, for an average of 9.

50*9 = 450 points

594 total points divided by 94 voters = 6.31 points (rounded to 6th all time)

This is probably a fair consensus of his rank.[/QUOTE]


Either way you put it it never gets better than 6 and never worse than 9. A said it a few times. I tried all these myself. :)

So the verdict is: top 10, not top 5.

[QUOTE='Toine=MVP]I think below Top 10ish is about as bad as #1. So doing some math here...

To get a representative vote, we need to take all the #1 votes and move them down to the Top 3 category and take everything below Top 10ish and move it up to that category.

There are an adjusted 27 votes for Top 3 (which really means 2 or 3 all time).

27*2.5 = 67.5 points

There are 17 votes for Top 5 (which really means 4 or 5 all time since it isn't top 3).

17*4.5 = 76.5 points

There are an adjusted 50 votes for Top 10ish. Obviously 6-10 count in the top 10, and let's say it extends down to #12 before crossing into the Top 15 category, for an average of 9.

50*9 = 450 points

594 total points divided by 94 voters = 6.31 points (rounded to 6th all time)

This is probably a fair consensus of his rank.[/QUOTE]

If anyone thinks he is outside the top 10 then that would spell disaster for any Kobe fanboys. This is a bunch of mumbo jumbo. Too sad, really.

[QUOTE=TheCorporation]What a worthless, flawed poll. The fact "outside of top 15" is an option is proof enough. Not to mention what sort of numeric ranking do you give for "top 10ish" :lol

Ugh what a waste of time :facepalm[/QUOTE]


Top 10ish got a value of 8.

It doesn't change the outcome much if you give it a 7 or a 9. I tried all these things.

[QUOTE=elementally morale]Either way you put it it never gets better than 6 and never worse than 9. A said it a few times. I tried all these myself. :)

So the verdict is: top 10, not top 5.[/QUOTE]

Another really simple way of looking at it, that even the biggest LeBron stan couldn't get super mad at is Top 5/Not Top 5.

44 voters think he is in the top 5 and 50 voters think he is not.

It is pretty close, to the point that we could say something like "he's arguably top 5". Referring back to an older comment of mine, if you had "Top 5ish" as a category, I bet a lot of people voting him outside the strict top 5 would have voted for him as Top 5ish (anyone who has him 6 or 7 should).

[QUOTE=elementally morale]See post number 71. I already did it. Others, too. Read before you type.

You don't understand what the word 'opinion' means. You have a problem.

An opinion is an opinion without any backing. You may find it a stupid opinion... that's fine. But still an opinion. It is worth the same as your opinion. 1 vote.

That's how opinion based elections work. More than half of all voters think LeBron is top 10ish or worse. You want to say it is not valid. It is though. According to the majority.[/QUOTE]
Post 71, which was a ton of votes ago so..., still doesn

[QUOTE=Bankaii]Post 71, which was a ton of votes ago so..., still doesn

[QUOTE='Toine=MVP]Another really simple way of looking at it, that even the biggest LeBron stan couldn't get super mad at is Top 5/Not Top 5.

44 voters think he is in the top 5 and 50 voters think he is not.

It is pretty close, to the point that we could say something like "he's arguably top 5". Referring back to an older comment of mine, if you had "Top 5ish" as a category, [B]I bet a lot of people voting him outside the strict top 5 would have voted for him as Top 5ish (anyone who has him 6 or 7 should)[/B].[/QUOTE]

Which is... still 7. As is the result.

[QUOTE=Bankaii]Post 71, which was a ton of votes ago so..., still doesn

Okay, here it is. Everyone can try with different values. Takes 3 minutes to type it to a spreadsheet.

[IMG]http://oi68.tinypic.com/o10u3q.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=elementally morale]Read post 71. I didn't say Kobe is better than LeBron.

I'm not making any arguments. This thread is a poll. It's opinions, not arguments.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=elementally morale]Which is... still 7. As is the result.[/QUOTE]

You are being overly defensive here and didn't read what I wrote. I'm saying there is a threshold rank at which well over half the members here would say he's above. I'm pretty sure like 60% or so, maybe 2/3, would say he's in the top 7 of all time. That doesn't mean 7th. It means at least 7th.

It is also likely true, based on this voting at least that 60% or maybe 2/3 of the voters would say "not top 4" (only 53% said not top 5 and 71% said not top 3 so it seems like a fair approximation.

So 5, 6, or 7 is roughly where he ranks. I think the issue is that besides MJ, we are going to massively disagree on which guys are ahead of LeBron and which are below even if we slotted LeBron in at #6.