According to this logic Steph curry is the GOAT. he didn't need superstar big men or guards..
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According to this logic Steph curry is the GOAT. he didn't need superstar big men or guards..
[QUOTE=DMAVS41][IMG]https://i.ibb.co/RCTM7q4/Capture1.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://i.ibb.co/8mY3F2m/Capture.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
damn
greater peak
LONGER peak
LeGoat you done did it again you bastard
[QUOTE=LAmbruh]damn
greater peak
LONGER peak
LeGoat you done did it again you bastard[/QUOTE]
Word. Backpicks has 3ball is a fuss because all time they ranked the top 3 as:
1. Kareem
2. LeBron
3. Jordan
And now the poor bastard is beside himself :lol
[QUOTE=tpols]According to this logic Steph curry is the GOAT. he didn't need superstar big men or guards..[/QUOTE]
Not enough rings as "the man" (0), so no
[QUOTE=72-10]Never in my life haev I seen Bird so high except for that guy MerkinMuffly, but I don't think you're him. I don't know how so much credit can be doled out to Bird given his paucity on defense, but I agree that he might be the second best player to play since he played.[/QUOTE]
You really sure Bird is 2? Have you considered his defensive letdowns due to his slow feet?
Here's an article from his rookie year talking about how his contemporary rival Dr. J was "running circles around him" on Philly's way to the next round of the 1980 playoffs: [url]https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1980/04/26/sixers-create-3-1-margin-as-erving-stars-celtics-one-loss-away/64b74509-953d-4e67-bd7c-9962e52faa8c/[/url]
[QUOTE=Da_Realist]These guys don't know how to determine how good [I][U]teams[/U][/I] are. They just look at the roster and count the number of all stars and such. The 98 Jazz destroy that premise. They beat the 4 all-star Lakers, Olajuwon/Drexler/Barkley Rockets and the Robinson/Duncan Spurs that would eventually win 2 titles in the next 5 years. Most of these guys are probably 16 and don't know what they're talking about.[/QUOTE]
You say this yet you just applauded 3balls comment completely downplaying the 14 spurs. Anyone who watched that year beyond how many superstars they had and one poor series vs Dallas knows they were a juggernaut. Obvious double standard that come from bias.
by 3ball's logic no center or post player can be the best
I mean sure Kareem had to receive entry passes into the post, but he was an excellent passer out of the post, and guys like Russell, Walton, Pau are brilliant passing big men with some of the best outlet passes we've seen
[QUOTE=72-10]by 3ball's logic no center or post player can be the best[/QUOTE]
I
[QUOTE=3ball]Not enough rings as "the man" (0), so no[/QUOTE]
So Iggy has 1 ring as the man? And let me guess, Iggy >>> Pippen, right?
[QUOTE=FKAri]So Iggy has 1 ring as the man? And let me guess, Iggy >>> Pippen, right?[/QUOTE]
Iggy is about equal with Pippen
But remember, he was a 2nd and 3rd [U]adjustment[/U] the warriors' were making - he was literally one of the last resorts
It shows tremendous weakness in the Warrior team that they would need to resort to a player or Iggy's low caliber to win a championship.. quite honestly, it's an indictment on curry, and proves his weakness..
but again, iggy is about equal with pippen
[QUOTE=3ball]. I've always thought that Pippen often played at a bench/role player caliber, and his weak stats frequently back that up.. But on the warriors, iggy was an actual bench player - it wouldn't surprise me to see Pippen in that role in today's game that doesn't favor his weak shooting[/QUOTE]
I guess the rest of the NBA didn't see it that way, considering they voted him onto their 50 greatest players list after just his 9th season
[QUOTE=3ball]I've always thought that Pippen often played at a bench/role player caliber, and his weak stats frequently back that up.. But on the warriors, iggy was an actual bench player - it wouldn't surprise me to see Pippen in that role in today's game that doesn't favor his weak shooting[/QUOTE]
I guess the rest of the NBA didn't see it that way, considering they voted him All-NBA 7 straight years, All-D 10 straight years and top 10 in MVP voting 6 straight years.
I guess Jordan carried Pippen during the first threepeat. I guess Pippen is at the tail end of all those votes, especially at the beginning of the 90s.
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents]I guess the rest of the NBA didn't see it that way, considering they voted him onto their 50 greatest players list after just his 9th season[/QUOTE]
That's how great MJ was - he elevated a 18/6/5 player to ridiculous heights - no one else with Pippen's weak stats and many poor [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13896112&postcount=30]series[/url] is anywhere near that high..
infact, many guys would get crushed and perma-banned from all-time great lists for the kind of horrific series that Pippen often had
[QUOTE=3ball]That's how great MJ was - he elevated a 18/6/5 player to ridiculous heights - no one else with Pippen's weak stats and many poor [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13896112&postcount=30]series[/url] is anywhere near that high..
infact, many guys would get crushed and perma-banned from all-time great lists for the kind of horrific series that Pippen often had[/QUOTE]
And the 7 straight All-NBA, 10 straight All-D and 6 straight top 10 MVP finishes?
[QUOTE=AussieSteve]And the 7 straight All-NBA, 10 straight All-D and 6 straight top 10 MVP finishes?[/QUOTE]
Again, MJ elevated him - no one else with Pippen's weak stats and many poor [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13896112&postcount=30]series[/url] is anywhere near that high..
anyone else gets crushed and perma-banned from all-time great lists for the kind of horrific series that Pippen often had.. but mj elevated pippen, so pippen gets a pass for his horrific play
Scottie Pippen made a lot of mistakes
[QUOTE=3ball;13885689][B]Both AD and Kareem needed super-point guards like Oscar, Magic, and now Lebron to find synergies and have a great team.
Without these guys bird-feeding them, they're losers.[/B]
I mentioned last year that AD's teams are only as good as the guys getting him the ball, which explains his weak teams in previous years (I like Jrue Holiday, but there's a lot of teams with ballhandlers that compare or exceed him, hence AD's underwhelming teams in previous years)[/QUOTE]
:roll:
What's the point of bringing up old rankings from a year ago that i changed many times?
Oh I know - you can't debate me on the substance
Carry on
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14154679]:roll:[/QUOTE]
:roll:
[QUOTE=3ball;14154725]What's the point of bringing up old rankings from a year ago that i changed many times?
Oh I know - you can't debate me on the substance
Carry on[/QUOTE]
You doing a complete 180 on players who retired 30 years ago in less than one year shows how completely full of shit you are and how little your opinions should be taken seriously
Kareem>>>Jordan
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14154747]You doing a complete 180 on players who retired 30 years ago in less than one year shows how completely full of shit you are and how little your opinions should be taken seriously[/QUOTE]
:roll:
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14154747]You doing a complete 180 on players who retired 30 years ago in less than one year shows how completely full of shit you are and how little your opinions should be taken seriously[/QUOTE]
:applause::oldlol:
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14154747]You doing a complete 180 on players who retired 30 years ago [B][SIZE=3]in less than one yea[/SIZE][/B]r shows how completely full of shit you are and how little your opinions should be taken seriously[/QUOTE]
Any change of opinion happens in a given year, so you're just mad that I learned more and changed my mind
Face facts - Magic and Kareem can't [u]both[/u] be top 5 given their weak Finals record (only 5-4 including asterisk rings).. so one of them must be bumped down - I ultimately chose Magic, since his ball-dominance hinders team ceiling/Finals record just like Lebron's - I have them neck-and-neck in the rankings
Ultimately, Lebron's skillset imposes spot-up roles in teammates, which doesn't develop brand or young players, and therefore needs ready-made stars to win (talent-based winning).. Talent-based winning has a lower long-run expectation than a combination of talent and the best brand
[QUOTE=3ball;14154810]Any change of opinion happens in a given year, so you're just mad that I learned more and changed my mind
Face facts - Magic and Kareem can't [u]both[/u] be top 5 given their weak Finals record (only 5-4 including asterisk rings).. so one of them must be bumped down - I ultimately chose Magic, since his ball-dominance hinders team ceiling/Finals record just like Lebron's - I have them neck-and-neck in the rankings
Ultimately, Lebron's skillset imposes spot-up roles in teammates, which doesn't develop brand or young players, and therefore needs ready-made stars to win (talent-based winning).. Talent-based winning has a lower long-run expectation than a combination of talent and the best brand[/QUOTE]
Does LeBron win if he only averaged 4 rebounds and 2 assists?
[QUOTE=Gus Hemmingway;14154820]Does LeBron win if he only averaged 4 rebounds and 2 assists?[/QUOTE]
No way--they don't get close to a chip without LeBron dominating as a playmaker and leading the team in rebounding (a PG outrebounded AD).
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14154846]No way--they don't get close to a chip without LeBron dominating as a playmaker and leading the team in rebounding (a PG outrebounded AD).[/QUOTE]
Lebron can't play off-ball (2-4 minutes time of possession, not 8-10)
So we don't know if he can get 45 points and 52% of team points while barely touching th ball in the brand of ball....
at an 82 pace and 105 drtg
lol.. carry on
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14154846]No way--they don't get close to a chip without LeBron dominating as a playmaker and leading the team in rebounding (a PG outrebounded AD).[/QUOTE]
Hmm interesting.. how did the Bulls win in 1998 with Jordan getting 4 rebounds and 2 assists with 43% FG if Pippen was “trash” as 3ball says?
[QUOTE=3ball;14154859]Lebron can't play off-ball (2-4 minutes time of possession, not 8-10)
So we don't know if he can get 45 points and 52% of team points while barely touching th ball in the brand of ball....
at an 82 pace and 105 drtg
lol.. carry on[/QUOTE]
How did Bulls win in 1998 with Jordan getting 4/2 on 43% FG?
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14154747]You doing a complete 180 on players who retired 30 years ago in less than one year shows how completely full of shit you are and how little your opinions should be taken seriously[/QUOTE]
:roll::roll:
K.O.
[QUOTE=Gus Hemmingway;14154861]Hmm interesting.. how did the Bulls win in 1998 with Jordan getting 4 rebounds and 2 assists with 43% FG if Pippen was “trash” as 3ball says?[/QUOTE]
Pippen dominated the first four games (Bulls 3-1) defensively before getting hurt, wrecking the #1 Jazz offense (the Stockton they hype watched this happen and did nothing). Google 1998 finals Pippen or "Pippen Finals MVP 1998" and you will see coverage from the time about that. Stuff 1-9ball and other stains won't mention.
[QUOTE=Gus Hemmingway;14154863]How did Bulls win in 1998 with Jordan getting 4/2 on 43% FG?[/QUOTE]
Only 3 players averaged over 30 in a Finals of under 90 pace
And MJ did it several times, with the 98' series having the slowest pace ever, only 82.0.. so based on the 2020 Finals pace and drtg, 98' mj averaged about 36.5 (if you add 10% for pace), and then another 10% due to the big gap in drtg.. so MJ averaged about 40, based on the pace and drtg of the 2020 Finals
You guys don't understand that MJ was always holding back from scoring/shooting more - he'd mastered the art of letting teammates score on possessions they could score on, and scoring himself in bailout situations or important junctures of the game.
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14154869]
[B][SIZE=3]Pippen dominated the first four games[/SIZE][/B] (Bulls 3-1) defensively before getting hurt, wrecking the #1 Jazz offense (the Stockton they hype watched this happen and did nothing). Google 1998 finals Pippen or "Pippen Finals MVP 1998" and you will see coverage from the time about that. Stuff 1-9ball and other stains won't mention.[/QUOTE]
Pippen had Paul George-like numbers - around 20/7/5 on spotty efficiency
That isn't dominating
Then he pulls his migraine crap and disappears for the last 2 games, just like the 89' ECF, 90' ECF, 92' ECSF, 96' Finals, and 97' ECF
Do you guys really think pippen should get more shots in the 96' Finals when he's averaging 15 on 34%?
You want to give him MORE shots??..
Or for the entire 96-98' Playoffs when he's averaging 17 on 41%?.. he should get MORE shots?
The point is that MJ had score a record percentage of team points (burden), record ppg, and record margin above 2nd option.
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14154869]Pippen dominated the first four games (Bulls 3-1) defensively before getting hurt, wrecking the #1 Jazz offense (the Stockton they hype watched this happen and did nothing). Google 1998 finals Pippen or "Pippen Finals MVP 1998" and you will see coverage from the time about that. Stuff 1-9ball and other stains won't mention.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE] Most players consider playing defense barely more than a necessary evil, something to be done so the fun part of the game can be resumed. Then there's Bulls forward Scottie Pippen, who can do all that as well as anyone. But his passion and talent for shutting down opponents has turned him into the defensive equivalent of his more offensive-minded teammate, Michael Jordan.
"Scottie sets the tempo defensively," Jordan said. "The more active he is, the better we are. His confidence is just as strong as mine, his competitiveness is just as strong as mine. It's like playing with a twin brother."[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]It was a defensive masterpiece by the Bulls, one unmatched in NBA history, not to mention Finals history. The Jazz's 54 points might have been just enough to beat the Green Bay Packers. This wasn't a basketball game, it was Kerry Wood blowing away the Houston Astros. It was Bob Gibson in the World Series. It was one man taking out a team.
Oh, sure, this was a team effort by the Bulls. Ron Harper was wonderful in steering Stockton toward the baseline to limit the options on the Jazz's famed pick-and-roll. So was Michael Jordan, who took just 14 shots but still had 24 points to lead the Bulls. But it was mostly Pippen, who has thwarted the Jazz like no other player, never mind a whole team. And his 10 points, four rebounds and four assists were only part of the story.
After the Bulls defeated the Jazz in the Finals last season, Stockton's summary was that the Jazz had no answer for Pippen. Utah is still failing that test. "The luxury for us is to have a defender like Scottie who can cover more than one situation at a time," coach Phil Jackson said.
If the Bulls win these Finals, Pippen should be the Most Valuable Player. "There have been terrific defenders in the history of the Finals," Jackson said. "You can go back to (Michael) Cooper for the Lakers, and Bobby Jones with the 76ers and other players who have played outstanding defense. The majority of those players are great one-on-one players. Scottie is able to be a one-man wrecking crew"[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Pippen is using the finals to reaffirm his position as the game's most complete and chaos-inspiring defensive player. On Sunday, he was largely responsible for the lowest scoring total in NBA history since the advent of the shot clock, when the Bulls pulverized the Jazz, 96-54, to take a two-games-to-one lead.
Pippen roamed the floor, spreading his 6-foot-7-inch angular body from player to player on the Jazz roster. Twenty-six Utah turnovers and an unprecedented finals rout later, everyone wanted to know how one player could cause such disruption. This post-season alone, he shut down Charlotte's Glen Rice in the second round and discombobulated the Pacers' offense in the Conference finals.
Whereas everyone remembers Steve Kerr's game-winning shot in Game 6 of last season's finals against the Jazz, few recall what happened moments later. Pippen deflected the inbounds pass on the other end to Toni Kukoc, who dunked to seal the victory and Chicago's fifth title[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]"The first time I came to Chicago, I didn't have that kind of person beside me," Jordan said. "Ever since he's been here, it's made it a lot easier for me." You can look it up. Jordan was a thrill-a-minute scoring machine, and yet in his first three years in the league the Bulls failed to achieve a winning record. Since Pippen's arrival in 1987, Chicago has had 11 straight winning seasons, and the two have developed into the best duo in the league.
Perhaps the most versatile player in the game, who is able to make his mark as a scorer, rebounder or passer, Pippen is standing out this postseason as a defender, no surprise for an eight-time member of the all-NBA defensive team. It was his ability to play the role of a "floater" defensively that set the tone for Sunday's 96-54 win over the Utah Jazz that gave Chicago a 2-1 lead in the NBA Finals. Karl Malone who, while ornery yesterday, took time to praise Pippen. "He could be the best defensive player playing."
Or one of the best ever, according to Hall of Fame coach Jack Ramsay. "I can't think of anybody as good, and there were some great defenders," Ramsay added. "He's the best. He's long, he has a great wingspan, great foot quickness, foot speed and elevation. He has the heart to take a charge from whomever, and he's unbelievable in recovering from help position to run at a shooter. He's amazing"[/QUOTE]..
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14154937]..[/QUOTE]
:bowdown: :cheers:
Yup, all there and recorded in real time long before anyone knew MJ stans would be crusading against Pippen. Just recording what reporters saw live so their readers could understand what happened in those games.
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14154937]..[/QUOTE]
Pippen averaged 15 on 41% in the 98' Finals - Lebron never won a Finals with his sidekick playing like that - Lebron never beat any top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick, aka Lebron never had a carry-job against a good team
[QUOTE=3ball;14154950]Pippen averaged 15 on 41% in the 98' Finals - Lebron never won a Finals with his sidekick playing like that - Lebron never beat any top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick, aka Lebron never had a carry-job against a good team[/QUOTE]
Against?
This guy?
[img]https://i.postimg.cc/R03hCBgJ/JeffyHornayikes.png[/img]
Literal lowest scoring worst second option in Finals history. Congrats
[QUOTE=TheCorporation;14154955]Against?
This guy?
[img]https://i.postimg.cc/R03hCBgJ/JeffyHornayikes.png[/img]
Literal lowest scoring worst second option in Finals history. Congrats[/QUOTE]
Malone gave the Utah front line massive edge by nearly doubling pippen's scoring average, so MJ had to make that up by outplaying their backcourt by a ton.. scoring and defense