1994 Pippen should have been mvp

[QUOTE=Soundwave;14028357]Pippen is overrated by Roundball Rock.
[/QUOTE]

Don't forget MVP voters, GM's, coaches, all-NBA voters, players, and sports writers at the time. The real truth is known by MJ stans and dumb Knicks fans 25 or so years later.

Yes, Pippen was not better than any 90's star....we get it. Kemp>Pippen. Movie at 11. Even though you clowns can't formulate a consistent argument against him.

[QUOTE]Has never watched anything[/QUOTE]

Yes, the guy who knows Pippen was switched onto Grant late in the Orlando series "never watched anything." You are just dumb as a rock and got nervous getting called out for your faux pearl clutching.

No, they are not generally MJ stans. They just hate Pippen (a random 90's star, right?) for...and their favorite player is? :roll:

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14028362]Don't forget MVP voters, GM's, coaches, all-NBA voters, players, and sports writers at the time. [/QUOTE]

David Robinson had 24 MVP votes to Pippen's 7 in 1994. Doesn't matter if Robinson crapped the bed in the playoffs. MVP is a regular season award.

Damn, forgot Chuck Daly and the Dream Team selection committee.

[QUOTE=Marchesk;14028364]David Robinson had 24 MVP votes to Pippen's 7 in 1994. Doesn't matter if Robinson crapped the bed in the playoffs. [B]MVP is a regular season award[/B].[/QUOTE]

Goal posts shifting--yet again.

How many MVP votes did Ewing, Barkley, Shaq, Kemp!, Miller, Malone, Payton, etc. get?

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14028368]Goal posts shifting--yet again.[/quote]

You can't dispute the fact that the MVP is a regular season award. It just is.

[quote]How many MVP votes did Ewing, Barkley, Shaq, Kemp!, Miller, Malone, Payton, etc. get?[/QUOTE]

Are you wanting to say Pippen had a better season than some of those players? Sure. Not Shaq, though. But if you want to throw the playoffs into the mix, Hakeem had the best overall season, period. No matter how you spin it, Pippen isn't Jordan.

Pippen is overrated--he somehow managed to sneak into the top 20-30 all-time by consensus. Ahead of Ewing, Drexler, Payton and light years ahead of Kemp!, Miller, etc.

Total fraud, doe? That only the few, the proud, fans of ____ (Oliver Miller?) know?

[QUOTE]You can't dispute the fact that the MVP is a regular season award. It just is.[/QUOTE]

You guys are every way from Sunday. Post to post it shifts. Not necessarily you, but all these "Pippen sucks" peeps. Find a consistent criteria and we can evaluate all these players via it.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14028373]Pippen is overrated--he somehow managed to sneak into the top 20-30 all-time by consensus. Ahead of Ewing, Drexler, Payton and light years ahead of Kemp!, Miller, etc.

Total fraud, doe? That only the few, the proud know?



You guys are every way from Sunday. Post to post it shifts. Not necessarily you, but all these "Pippen sucks" peeps.[/QUOTE]

For three straight Finals Runs he averaged 21/9/7/2/1 on 46% in the tough 90s. In 2010's I hear he would be doing 23/10/8/3/2

But somehow that is not good as a #2 option, not even referring to the fact that he was the greatest perimeter in 90s history.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14028373]Pippen is overrated--he somehow managed to sneak into the top 20-30 all-time by consensus.[/QUOTE]

He's only overrated if you're saying Pippen was as good as the MVP winners of the 90s, or second best player to Jordan.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14028373]Ahead of Ewing, Drexler, Payton and light years ahead of Kemp!, Miller, etc.[/quote]

It really does help to have Jordan as your teammate and the six rings. Are Ewing and Drexler not winning rings with MJ? But okay, I can see the argument for Pippen over some of those guys.

[QUOTE=Rico2016;14028378]For three straight Finals Runs he averaged 21/9/7/2/1 on 46% in the tough 90s. In 2010's I hear he would be doing 23/10/8/3/2

But somehow that is not good as a #2 option, not even referring to the fact that he was the greatest perimeter in 90s history.[/QUOTE]

That is why they cannot formulate a single consistent metric to assess him with which they are willing to apply to any other player. Go through this thread. Whenever their own "logic" gets applied to another player, what is their response?

Knowing his true value = Hating Pippen?

Was he some irreplaceable legend wherein its blasphemous to compare him to his peers regardless who was better?

[QUOTE=Marchesk;14028383]He's only overrated if you're saying Pippen was as good as the MVP winners of the 90s, or second best player to Jordan.


It really does help to have Jordan as your teammate and the six rings. Are Ewing and Drexler not winning rings with MJ? But okay, I can see the argument for Pippen over some of those guys.[/QUOTE]

Decade long rankings aren't the same as year-to-year rankings. That is a sleight of hand MJ stans like to pull (not saying you).

Here are my 90's as a whole rankings: 1) Jordan 2) Hakeem 3) Malone 4) Barkley 5) Robinson 6) Pippen 7) Ewing 8 ) Shaq 9) Stockton 10) Drexler. HM: Payton (role player until 94', though.)

All-time is different, year-to-year is different. Barkley>Malone prime versus prime, for example. Shaq>all these guys but MJ all-time. Stockton's peak was really low for a player of his caliber. Give me peak Drexler or peak Payton over him but longevity matters. Etc. What would be your 90's top 10?

As to Jordan, it is unclear what the impact was. The entire argument [U]against [/U]Pippen revolves around him playing [I]with[/I] Jordan. His accolades skyrocketed without MJ.

Pippen without MJ (2 years): 1st team all-NBA, 1st team all-NBA, 3rd and 7th in MVP.
Pippen with MJ (1988-1993, 1996-1998): one 1st team, 2 second teams, 2 third teams, 5th and 9th in MVP (highs).

Robinson played with Duncan and won 2 rings. Drexler won a ring with Hakeem. Those don't even come up when their legacies are discussed. Drexler [I]losing[/I] two finals comes up a lot more. We also see it argued that Miller losing ECF's>Klay Thompson winning rings. There is a tax for being a lower "option" it seems--especially with fans.

It sounds crazy but it may very well have been better for Pippen to have 10 years as a "#1" and hope he got to the finals once or twice like Ewing, Drexler, Miller, Payton, Kidd did at points. Win or lose? It doesn't matter. Losing as a #1>winning 6 as a #2, evidently.

As to the MJ stan pearl clutching, correct me if I'm wrong but my observations are:

1) The people most critical of Pippen are universally highly favorable to MJ
2) Pippen critics defend/praise every 90's superstar (or even stars like Kemp or Miller) except Pippen, Jordan's teammate.
3) The arguments against Pippen aren't even real. They won't apply them to any other player and proudly will tell you it doesn't count for others.

So we have this wellspring of hatred towards Pippen. Who was Pippen? He was a random 90's superstar. I grew up in the Philadelphia area. Pippen, Drexler, Ewing, Robinson, etc. All big names but no one in particular generated a special degree of venom in the 90's.

So there is this Pippen specific hate, Pippen is a random 90's superstar except that he played with Jordan, Pippen detractors never say a negative word and in fact praise every 90's superstar who did not play with Jordan, and these people lionize Jordan. Yet with Pippen it is cherry picking, bad faith, etc. Why do they "randomly" select Jordan's teammate out of all the 90's superstars while loving every other 90's superstar who did *not* play with Jordan?

Call me crazy, but it sure sounds like a Jordan connection to the Pippen hate 25 years later...MJ stans want to conceal it but, barring another explanation for the above, the agenda is obvious.

You really think the discussions would go this long if you did not treat Pippen as some sort of irreplaceable legend?

Regardless of resume/rings I place Kemp, Drexler, Mourning, Pippen in terms of impact and ability. All of them led their teams to 60+ wins except Pippen. You proceed to get triggered to the heavens as if these players arent even close.

You proceed to place Miller on the same class as peak Hawkins, Blaylock and Jeff Hornaceck as a shot at me but the difference is I know their true value so why should I be offended when they are close in ability in their respective peaks.

[QUOTE=Reggie43;14028445]You really think the discussions would go this long if you did not treat Pippen as some sort of irreplaceable legend?

Regardless of resume/rings I place Kemp, Drexler, Mourning, Pippen in terms of impact and ability. All of them led their teams to 60+ wins except Pippen. You proceed to get triggered to the heavens as if these players arent even close.

You proceed to place Miller on the same class as peak Hawkins, Blaylock and Jeff Hornaceck as a shot at me but the difference is I know their true value so why should I be offended when they are close in ability in their respective peaks.[/QUOTE]

How are top 30 all time greats not nearly irreplaceable tho?

[QUOTE=Reggie43;14028445]You really think the discussions would go this long if you did not treat Pippen as some sort of irreplaceable legend?

Regardless of resume/rings I place Kemp, Drexler, Mourning, Pippen in terms of impact and ability. All of them led their teams to 60+ wins except Pippen. You proceed to get triggered to the heavens as if these players arent even close.

You proceed to place Miller on the same class as peak Hawkins, Blaylock and Jeff Hornaceck as a shot at me but the difference is I know their true value so why should I be offended when they are close in ability in their respective peaks.[/QUOTE]

Lol Kemp never at any point led a team to 60+ wins you dipshit, moron ****ing goof. Your stupidity sucking off Reggie has made you half retarded ****stick.

[QUOTE=Rico2016;14028447]How are top 30 all time greats not nearly irreplaceable tho?[/QUOTE]

Because some of them get placed there due to team accomplishments and not actual abiility.

[QUOTE=Reggie43;14028456]Because some of them get placed there due to team accomplishments and not actual abiility.[/QUOTE]

Please tell me which ones you are referring to...

[QUOTE=Smoke117;14028451]Lol Kemp never at any point led a team to 60+ wins you dipshit, moron ****ing goof. Your stupidity sucking off Reggie has made you half retarded ****stick.[/QUOTE]

It was all Payton then? Was he the clear cut leader and best player? Who do you think teams gameplanned for when facing the sonics? Who was the best player for the Sonics on the Finals?

Guess your on the bottle again or forgot your meds so you get triggered easily :roll:

Phil's instinct to let Kukoc to take the last shot saved Pip's ass in that series

If he somehow missed that shot, Pip's rep would be in tatters

[QUOTE=Rico2016;14028461]Please tell me which ones you are referring to...[/QUOTE]

I'll give you a hint, most of them are clear cut second options.

I’m pretty sure this goof retard Reggie43 thinks Reggie Miller is greater than Scottie Pippen...the dumb stupid mutt that he is...:lol

[QUOTE=Smoke117;14028468]I’m pretty sure this goof retard Reggie43 thinks Reggie Miller is greater than Scottie a Pippen...the dumb stupid mutt that he is...��[/QUOTE]

Quote me where I said it? The only thing youll find is where I said the opposite actually.

Dumb stupid mutt got caught lying thus the meltdowns against me :roll:

Word of advice use facts to prove a point and dont invent stuff that never happened, that shit gets easily exposed nowadays with internet and all.

[QUOTE=Smoke117;13994371] On that note, Mutombo didn't even defend Robinson and Hakeem one on one. The PF always did because his feet were too damn slow to play any kind of decent defense on them.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Reggie43;13994388][video=youtube_share;ZFEvxc6W9To]https://youtu.be/ZFEvxc6W9To[/video][video=youtube_share;mUtJmDgIFI8]https://youtu.be/mUtJmDgIFI8[/video][/QUOTE]

*Videos show Deke defending both players single coverage with hardly any double teams.

Smoke117 at his best :cheers:

[QUOTE=Smoke117;14028468]I’m pretty sure this goof retard Reggie43 thinks Reggie Miller is greater than Scottie Pippen...the dumb stupid mutt that he is...:lol[/QUOTE]

:lol He does. One of the many amusing things is they wildly diverge from the consensus (real, not Fantasy Island) on Pippen but then will call us biased,. delusional, etc. for being consistent with the consensus. Pippen is top 20-30 all-time by consensus. That is a fact. Show me an all-time list that has him outside that range. Show me where Ewing, Payton, Drexler, Kemp, Miller, Mourning, Horace Grant, etc. are on the same lists. According to MJ stans, literally every 90's superstar or star was better than Pippen. Even guys like Kemp and Miller. Now we are hearing Horace Grant (who outplayed Penny, who MJ stans adore, in the same series). At least MJ stans finally are giving Grant some credit. A player better than Penny (per their own logic here) as #3? #stacked


Re the MJ stan stuff, it is these people who by their own admission connect Pippen to MJ. They view him solely through the lens of MJ. Yet they swear they aren't MJ stans? :roll:

Of course we aren't allowed to make a case. Woah says if you push back against MJ stans you should be banned. What a useful idiot for MJ stans. Give them free reign to deceive younger posters.

Another myth posed above. If Kukoc misses it goes to OT. The deception never ends.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14028477]:lol He does. One of the many amusing things is they wildly diverge from the consensus (real, not Fantasy Island) on Pippen but then will call us biased,. delusional, etc. for being consistent with the consensus. Pippen is top 20-30 all-time by consensus. That is a fact. Show me an all-time list that has him outside that range. Show me where Ewing, Payton, Drexler, Kemp, Miller, Mourning, Horace Grant, etc. are on the same lists.


Re the MJ stan stuff, it is these people who by their own admission connect Pippen to MJ. They view him solely through the lens of MJ. Yet they swear they aren't MJ stans? :roll:

Of course we aren't allowed to make a case. Woah says if you push back against MJ stans you should be banned. What a useful idiot for MJ stans. Give them free reign to deceive younger posters.

Another myth posed above. If Kukoc misses it goes to OT. The deception never ends.[/QUOTE]

Tell me again how Pippens baggage affect his value as a player? Oh wait you never answered this and avoided it like the plague :roll:

Imagine a top 30 player fresh off 6 rings getting traded for Roy freakin Rogers because of the aforementioned baggage :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14028477]Show me where Ewing, Payton, Drexler, Kemp, Miller, Mourning, Horace Grant, etc. are on the same lists.[/QUOTE]

It's not clear at all to me that Pippen was better than Ewing and Drexler or even Payton. If we removed the six finals, does Pippen still get the consensus top 30? The ones where Jordan won six FMVPS?

Here is where all the 90's players MJ stans bring up vis-a-vis Pippen rank all-time in the three most recent major rankings. I'll throw Simmons' 2009 rankings from his book in too, to give us an idea of how they were perceived a decade ago too.

Pippen: #21 ESPN, #22 Slam, #25 Backpicks, #24 Simmons
Ewing: #37 ESPN, #30 Slam, #28 Backpicks, #40 Simmons
Drexler: #57 ESPN, #43 Drexler Slam, #39 Backpicks, #44 Simmons
Miller: #49 ESPN, #55 Slam, #30 Backpicks, #63 Simmons
Wilkins: #46 ESPN, #41 Slam, N/A Backpicks, #55 Simmons
Worthy: #51 ESPN, #46 Slam, N/A Backpicks, #50 Simmons
Kemp: N/A ESPN, #100 Slam, N/A Backpicks, #88 Simmons
Robinson: #24 ESPN, #29 Slam, #15 Backpicks, #29 Simmons
Payton: #53 ESPN, #39 Slam, N/A Backpicks, #41 Simmons
Stockton: #28 ESPN, #25 Slam, #27 Stockton, #19 Stockton

Pippen actually has the most consensus. The others all have one outlier ranking to their name. Pippen is in a tight range. The Pippen debate exists only in a very special place known as Jordanstan where Pippen is #2 all-time--#2 WOAT, ahead of LeBron.

So Pippen was a scrub, equal or lesser than Kemp and Miller--guys who never made first team all-NBA--in Jordanstan but somehow he manages to be ahead of all these guys all-time.

[QUOTE]It's not clear at all to me that Pippen was better than Ewing and Drexler or even Payton. If we removed the six finals, does Pippen still get the consensus top 30? [/QUOTE]

We aren't allowed to discuss this. We can't discuss their resumes. We can't discuss them as players. We can't discuss their stats. We can't discuss how they were perceived at the time. Didn't you get the memo? All is allowed is cherry picking Pippen to say he sucks.

Pippen has been compared to these players at various points on ISH. MJ stans don't engage in the comparison, just respond with more "Pippen sucks" stuff.

You can't apply one set of rules for Pippen and another for every other legend. That isn't how all-time rankings work. If you remove his team success, you have to do the same for each of them. What we often see is "Pippen's rings don't count but Drexler lost two finals as the man, therefore, Drexler>Pippen." That isn't how real history works. That is stanning on ISH.

Plus, if it is all about rings why is Worthy not getting the same boost? Why is Havlicek behind Pippen? How about others with rings? Rodman has 5, no? Where is the "no ring" tax (look at where Stockton is)? Also, take Ewing as an example. We are to ignore he has no ring because he melted down in the finals? So he gets the credit for making a finals but not the demerits for melting down while there?

There is a ranking that by its criteria does not factor in "rings" (which MJ stans suddenly don't think matter for all-time ranking purposes--Pippen, Russell are the few exceptions :oldlol: ) although he does factor in team impact and how well a player could fit on different teams in different roles. Read it yourself (it is called Backpicks--scroll up to their rankings):

[URL="https://backpicks.com/2017/12/11/the-backpicks-goat-the-40-best-careers-in-nba-history/"]https://backpicks.com/2017/12/11/the-backpicks-goat-the-40-best-careers-in-nba-history/[/URL]

Let me flip your question. Take team success away from all these players. How do you rank them?

Here is a comparison of perimeter players in the 90's from another thread. A Pippen vs. Ewing comparison is somewhere around here in another thread--MJ stans did not respond.

[U]Pippen/Drexler/Stockton/Miller in the 90's[/U]

All-NBA: Stockton 8, Pippen 7, Drexler 4, Miller 3
All-NBA 1st: Pippen 3, Stockton 2, Drexler 1, Miller 0
Top 5 in MVP: Pippen 2, Drexler 1, Miller/Stockton 0
Top 10 in MVP: Pippen 5, Drexler/Stockton 3, Miller 0
All-star: Stockton 8, Pippen/Drexler 7, Miller 4
All-D: Pippen 9, Stockton 4, Drexler/Miller 0 (Pippen with 8 all-D 1st teams)

Drexler and Stockton both have a trio of top 10 MVP finishes but they are not the same quality. Drexler's were 2nd, 6th, 10th; Stockton's 8th, 9th, 10th. For the record, Pippen's were 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 10th.

[U]Career All-NBA 1st Teams[/U]

Pippen 3
Payton/Stockton 2
Ewing/Wilkins/Drexler 1
Miller/Worthy/Kemp 0

Any Pippen haters have an explanation for this? The M Jay excuse doesn't fly--2 of those 3 came with MJ retired, implying MJ held his accolades back. All these superior players and they make all-NBA 1st team less than Pippen? Pippen did it over prime Malone, Barkley, Hill (you can throw prime Kemp in too since Pippen haters love him) too. That's tough forward competition, no?

Also, if these players are in the same tier--where is the daily onslaught of "Drexler sucks" or "Ewing is a fraud" or "Payton!" scrutiny? It follows only one player (Jordan's teammate), and we are told there is no agenda attached to it. Just a coincidence! In fact, many of the very people who vehemently denounce Pippen will defend or praise other players for equal or worse things in their resume. Thread to thread, post to post, even sentence to sentence. Why don't Drexler or Payton or Worthy or Wilkins or Ewing get even 5% of that level of hate?

The Pippen hate stuff started long after he retired...and really intensified as Jordan fans felt footsteps from LeBron.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14028531]Why is Havlicek behind Pippen?[/QUOTE]

No way in hell Simmons ranked Pippen over Hondo all-time. The only reason others might have done so is recency bias.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14028531]Here is where all the 90's players MJ stans bring up vis-a-vis Pippen rank all-time in the three most recent major rankings. I'll throw Simmons' 2009 rankings from his book in too, to give us an idea of how they were perceived a decade ago too.

Pippen: #21 ESPN, #22 Slam, #25 Backpicks, #24 Simmons
Ewing: #37 ESPN, #30 Slam, #28 Backpicks, #40 Simmons
Drexler: #57 ESPN, #43 Drexler Slam, #39 Backpicks, #44 Simmons
Miller: #49 ESPN, #55 Slam, #30 Backpicks, #63 Simmons
Wilkins: #46 ESPN, #41 Slam, N/A Backpicks, #55 Simmons
Worthy: #51 ESPN, #46 Slam, N/A Backpicks, #50 Simmons
Kemp: N/A ESPN, #100 Slam, N/A Backpicks, #88 Simmons
Robinson: #24 ESPN, #29 Slam, #15 Backpicks, #29 Simmons
Payton: #53 ESPN, #39 Slam, N/A Backpicks, #41 Simmons
Stockton: #28 ESPN, #25 Slam, #27 Stockton, #19 Stockton

Pippen actually has the most consensus. The others all have one outlier ranking to their name. Pippen is in a tight range. The Pippen debate exists only in a very special place known as Jordanstan where Pippen is #2 all-time--#2 WOAT, ahead of LeBron.[/QUOTE]

Do you honestly think Pippen, if not traded on draft day*, ends up in the 20-25 range? Those lists are so much based on career trajectory. I think Pippen is a better player than all of them except for David Robinson, but if Jordan gets drafted by the Blazers and they win a few with Drexler, a good all round player in his own right gets more rings his status would very much change. #57 is a joke. How is Drexler lower than fn Reggie Miller on some lists.

Also I think Pippen benefited from the Jordan retirement personally. His worth got accepted way more by fans and pundits and being in the MVP mix was justified, but I doubt he's in the mix for MVP if he plays on the Sonics unless they develop they same way the did without him(balanced team with 60ish win seasons). Then I'd see him win one or two as he would definately be their best player.

*In this scenario of course Jordan would also suffer alot - wanna get that out of the way before discussion ensues.

[QUOTE]No way in hell Simmons ranked Pippen over Hondo all-time. [/QUOTE]

He doesn't but everyone else does. The point wasn't Pippen vs. Hondo. The point was Hondo (aka the Pippen of his era) versus Drexler, Ewing, Payton, etc. I guess it is all rings driving him as well, right? Hondo is a great test case: Pippen by another name. As you noted, the only thing holding him back is era bias. Which means he should be around where Pippen is ranked...

[QUOTE]Do you honestly think Pippen, if not traded on draft day*, ends up in the 20-25 range?[/QUOTE]

You are falling into their trap. Why not ask this question of every player? It could go either way but impossible to know. What if Pippen has 10 years of a prime as the best player, wins a MVP, has a couple other MVP contending seasons, and his team wins a ring? I.e., a Dirk-like career trajectory or Wade. Or Harden's if he winds up with a ring like Dirk. Where does he rank then?

[QUOTE]if Jordan gets drafted by the Blazers and they win a few with Drexler[/QUOTE]

Drexler is a good test case. He actually [I]did[/I] win a ring and no one even remembers it. Go back to the Drexler threads a few weeks ago. His advocates kept pointing to the two finals he [I]lost[/I]. With fans at least, there is an obsession with "options" so losing in the NBA finals or even conference finals as the "#1", even a nominal #1 like Miller>winning rings as a #2.

MJ and Drexler played the same position. How would they mesh? Drexler hit his prime earlier (though he did nothing as a rookie, same as Pippen) than the younger Pippen but the flip side is he started breaking down earlier. So let's suppose Drexler is drafted in 1987 and that they somehow meshed as MJ and Jordan-lite. Both were on the bench as rookies. Pippen became a permanent starter 1/3 through his season year. Drexler started half the games in 88' and 58 in 89'. At any rate, both became all-stars in their third season (which would be 1990). Bulls with Drexler win in 1990, 1991, 1992...and then Drexler starts to decline...

This is where these scenarios get tricky. Drexler in 95' won with a lesser player than MJ--but MJ himself barely won with what by 93' was a better player than Drexler. It shows you it is a team sport. You can't just look at 2 players.

[QUOTE]Also I think Pippen benefited from the Jordan retirement personally. His worth got accepted way more by fans and pundits and being in the MVP mix was justified[/QUOTE]

That's one way to look at it. I agree that he benefited from it because he get proper recognition but the real question isn't the retirement per se but what if he had an entire prime away from MJ versus only 1 4/5 seasons (only 1 playoff run)?

[QUOTE]I doubt he's in the mix for MVP if he plays on the Sonics unless they develop they same way the did without him(balanced team with 60ish win seasons). Then I'd see him win one or two as he would definately be their best player.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, and he would wind up slightly ahead of where he is all-time now in that scenario with a MVP and "rings as the man." The anti-Pippen crowd only looks at downside variance.

There may be value in a ring or two as a "sidekick" but, as Kyrie understood, the value goes away. People don't distinguish between Pippen or Hondo's number and those of Worthy or Gasol or McHale. They all get a modicum of credit but fans give more credit to Ewing, Payton, Miller, Iverson for making *one* finals and losing as the best player.

Pippen without MJ is not top 20. He's literally only there because MJ made him better. Literally.

MJ is still the GOAT, and Pippen isn't top 10 in the 90's. Sorry.

[QUOTE=BigShotBob;14028586]MJ is still the GOAT, and Pippen isn't top 10 in the 90's. Sorry.[/QUOTE]

Where do you rank Pippen for the 90's? I had him 6th. What is your placement?

:lol at the MJ insecurity but that hints at the real agenda re Pippen (of course, none of these people are MJ fans! ).

Here are some others added (starting with Mourning).

Pippen: #21 ESPN, #22 Slam, #25 Backpicks, #24 Simmons
Ewing: #37 ESPN, #30 Slam, #28 Backpicks, #40 Simmons
Drexler: #57 ESPN, #43 Drexler Slam, #39 Backpicks, #44 Simmons
Miller: #49 ESPN, #55 Slam, #30 Backpicks, #63 Simmons
Wilkins: #46 ESPN, #41 Slam, N/A Backpicks, #55 Simmons
Worthy: #51 ESPN, #46 Slam, N/A Backpicks, #50 Simmons
Kemp: N/A ESPN, #100 Slam, N/A Backpicks, #88 Simmons
Robinson: #24 ESPN, #29 Slam, #15 Backpicks, #29 Simmons
Payton: #53 ESPN, #39 Slam, N/A Backpicks, #41 Simmons
Stockton: #28 ESPN, #25 Slam, #27 Stockton, #19 Stockton
Mourning: #63 on ESPN, #78 on Slam, N/A Backpicks, N/A Simmons
Dumars: N/A on ESPN, #83 on Slam, N/A Backpicks, #74 Simmons
McHale: #36 ESPN, #40 Slam, #38 Backpicks, #35 Simmons
T. Hardaway: N/A ESPN, #96 Slam, N/A Backpicks, N/A Simmons
K. Johnson: N/A ESPN, N/A Slam, N/A Backpicks, #96 Simmons
Mullin: N/A ESPN, #84 Slam, N/A BP, #82 Simmons

Somehow--according to the [I]real[/I] objective posters (no agenda!)--every single one of these players>>>>>Pippen yet somehow Pippen is ahead of all of them all-time. :lol

Here are the careers mapped out for the best of these players, year by year, with markers for different levels of play. It doesn't say anything about rings...note that Pippen's best years "happened" to be 1994 and 1995.

Here are his criteria:

[QUOTE]This list also [B]goes far beyond the box score[/B] — indeed, the box score is merely a reference for quantifying tendencies — so if you’re used to citing points per game and Win Shares, this will be a bit different.

Instead, [B]this is a career-value, or CORP list; it ranks the players who have provided the largest increase in the odds of a team winning championships over the course of their careers[/B]. This means that having great Finals moments or winning the hearts of fans with innovative passes is irrelevant. You can make a great list with those criteria, but that’s not what this exercise is intended to be.

[B]This list is really about evaluating players based on “goodness,” not merely situational value[/B]. (If David Robinson backed up the two best centers ever, he wouldn’t be very valuable, but he’d still be very good.)

All told, in the last seven years I’ve evaluated over 1,500 player-seasons to compile this list.[/QUOTE]

Drexler:

[IMG]https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Drexler-seasonal-valuations.png[/IMG]

Miller:

[IMG]https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Miller-seasonal-valuations.png[/IMG]

Robinson:

[IMG]https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/David-Robinson-seasonal-vauations.png[/IMG]

Ewing:

[IMG]https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/P-Ewing-seasonal-valuations.png[/IMG]

Stockton:

[IMG]https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Stockton-seasonal-valuations.png[/IMG]

Pippen:

[IMG]https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Pippen-seasonal-valuations.png[/IMG]

Rings doe! It is all about those rings! Take away those rings and he would be behind all these players, even though his record (as assessed here) trumps all of them except Robinson's (who is ranked within spots of him, unlike the others here).

Wilkins, Worthy, Payton aren't here because they didn't make the top 40. Here is why Payton didn't:

[QUOTE][B]Payton was in the “barely-missed-the-cut” group. I was actually disappointed with his defense on this latest film study[/B]. He can crank up good positions by being physical and has good hands, but he can be immobile and gamble heavily. As you probably think too, [B]his offense is good but not great[/B].
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Reggie43;14028478]Tell me again how Pippens baggage affect his value as a player? Oh wait you never answered this and avoided it like the plague :roll:

Imagine a top 30 player fresh off 6 rings getting traded for Roy freakin Rogers because of the aforementioned baggage :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

lol Yeah it's not like he was well past his prime at 33 with a ****ed up body or anything. It's easy to last a long time when you don't do anything but shoot like Reggie Miller. He didn't ****ing do anything else that's for damn sure. Defense, rebounding, etc....foreign concepts to your hero.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14028578]
You are falling into their trap. Why not ask this question of every player? It could go either way but impossible to know. What if Pippen has 10 years of a prime as the best player, wins a MVP, has a couple other MVP contending seasons, and his team wins a ring? I.e., a Dirk-like career trajectory or Wade. Or Harden's if he winds up with a ring like Dirk. Where does he rank then?[/quote]

I don't think it changes much on those lists although I think he should be higher if that was the case. I also think Dirk and Wade were too low on the latest espn list.

Also think if Pippen never plays Jordan wouldn't be the GOAT; strip any Top 5 player of their respective #2 when he one and none of them id in the mux anymore.

[quote]
Drexler is a good test case. He actually [I]did[/I] win a ring and no one even remembers it. Go back to the Drexler threads a few weeks ago. His advocates kept pointing to the two finals he [I]lost[/I]. With fans at least, there is an obsession with "options" so losing in the NBA finals or even conference finals as the "#1", even a nominal #1 like Miller>winning rings as a #2.[/quote]

Yeah it's BS. There's cut in the AT and best ever ranks where ATG #2s start to get ranked who are definately better than some, even great, #1s. Imo Ewing for example has no case over Pippen. Reggie Miller? Not even close. Drexler gets treated unfairly. He was a great #2 for that one ring and a first option good enough to lead his team to two finals. What's Ewing's argument over him for example.

[quote]
MJ and Drexler played the same position. How would they mesh? Drexler hit his prime earlier (though he did nothing as a rookie, same as Pippen) than the younger Pippen but the flip side is he started breaking down earlier. So let's suppose Drexler is drafted in 1987 and that they somehow meshed as MJ and Jordan-lite. Both were on the bench as rookies. Pippen became a permanent starter 1/3 through his season year. Drexler started half the games in 88' and 58 in 89'. At any rate, both became all-stars in their third season (which would be 1990). Bulls with Drexler win in 1990, 1991, 1992...and then Drexler starts to decline...[/quote]

Drexler would play SF I'm pretty sure, but let's say he is the 2nd option for a threepeat, a great one at that I'm sure he wouldn't be ranked in the 40s and as low as 57.

[quote]
This is where these scenarios get tricky. Drexler in 95' won with a lesser player than MJ--but MJ himself barely won with what by 93' was a better player than Drexler. It shows you it is a team sport. You can't just look at 2 players.
[/quote]

Sure, but alot of those lists look at single player or their first/second option at best.

[quote]
That's one way to look at it. I agree that he benefited from it because he get proper recognition but the real question isn't the retirement per se but what if he had an entire prime away from MJ versus only 1 4/5 seasons (only 1 playoff run)?



Yeah, and he would wind up slightly ahead of where he is all-time now in that scenario with a MVP and "rings as the man." The anti-Pippen crowd only looks at downside variance.

There may be value in a ring or two as a "sidekick" but, as Kyrie understood, the value goes away. People don't distinguish between Pippen or Hondo's number and those of Worthy or Gasol or McHale. They all get a modicum of credit but fans give more credit to Ewing, Payton, Miller, Iverson for making *one* finals and losing as the best player.[/QUOTE]

I think the undervalued great on bad teams, aka McGrady, or the afforementioned Dirk career are the most likely cases for Pippen sans the Bulls. Hence I don't think his contributions to the Bulls' rings are really undervalued.


[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14028598]Here are some others added (starting with Mourning).

Pippen: #21 ESPN, #22 Slam, #25 Backpicks, #24 Simmons
Ewing: #37 ESPN, #30 Slam, #28 Backpicks, #40 Simmons
Drexler: #57 ESPN, #43 Drexler Slam, #39 Backpicks, #44 Simmons
Miller: #49 ESPN, #55 Slam, #30 Backpicks, #63 Simmons
Wilkins: #46 ESPN, #41 Slam, N/A Backpicks, #55 Simmons
Worthy: #51 ESPN, #46 Slam, N/A Backpicks, #50 Simmons
Kemp: N/A ESPN, #100 Slam, N/A Backpicks, #88 Simmons
Robinson: #24 ESPN, #29 Slam, #15 Backpicks, #29 Simmons
Payton: #53 ESPN, #39 Slam, N/A Backpicks, #41 Simmons
Stockton: #28 ESPN, #25 Slam, #27 Stockton, #19 Stockton
Mourning: #63 on ESPN, #78 on Slam, N/A Backpicks, N/A Simmons
Dumars: N/A on ESPN, #83 on Slam, N/A Backpicks, #74 Simmons
McHale: #36 ESPN, #40 Slam, #38 Backpicks, #35 Simmons
T. Hardaway: N/A ESPN, #96 Slam, N/A Backpicks, N/A Simmons
K. Johnson: N/A ESPN, N/A Slam, N/A Backpicks, #96 Simmons
Mullin: N/A ESPN, #84 Slam, N/A BP, #82 Simmons

Somehow--according to the [I]real[/I] objective posters (no agenda!)--every single one of these players>>>>>Pippen yet somehow Pippen is ahead of all of them all-time. :lol[/QUOTE]

As said I only think Robinson was a better player than Pippen on that list. Stockton is way overrated on them.

[QUOTE=Overdrive;14028663]I think the undervalued great on bad teams, aka McGrady, or the afforementioned Dirk career are the most likely cases for Pippen sans the Bulls. Hence I don't think his contributions to the Bulls' rings are really undervalued.




As said I only think Robinson was a better player than Pippen on that list. Stockton is way overrated on them.[/QUOTE]

lol Pippen is my favorite player of all time, but him being over Robinson is madness. David Robinson is probably the most underrated player ever. He completely carried the Spurs for a good decade as I've pointed out in from 96 to 97 when they went from one of the best teams in the league to utter garbage with him out. Spurs only even got Tim Duncan because David Robinson was so good the team turned to complete shit without him. lol They went from the 3rd best team in the league IN DEFENSE TO DEAD LAST WITHOUT HIM. Eight in offense to 27/29 without him. lol That's pretty much the definition of impact when your team goes to complete shit without you.

[QUOTE=Smoke117;14028664]lol Pippen is my favorite player of all time, but him being over Robinson is madness. David Robinson is probably the most underrated player ever. He completely carried the Spurs for a good decade as I've pointed out in from 96 to 97 when they went from one of the best teams in the league to utter garbage with him out. Spurs only even got Tim Duncan because David Robinson was so good the team turned to complete shit without him. lol[/QUOTE]

Yeah, David had Lebron level floor raising impact. I liked Sean Elliott, but he definately wouldn't tip the scale enough to win in the 90s.

Btw always thought the Admiral was your #1.