:facepalm:
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:facepalm:
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[B]The gap between Dirk and his 2nd option... versus the gap between MJ and Pippen[/B]
[I]PLAYOFFS[/I]
[U]11' Dirk[/u]'........ 27.7 ppg.. 25.2 PER.. 5.5 BPM.. 1.6 VORP.. 0.210 WS/48
[U]11' Terry[/u]....... 17.5 ppg.. 20.3 PER.. 4.6 BPM.. 1.1 VORP.. 0.179 WS/48
[B]GAP............... 10.2...........4.9.............1.1.......... 0.5............ 0.031[/B]
[U]93' Jordan[/u]... 35.1 ppg.. 30.1 PER.. 11.6 BPM.. 2.9 VORP.. 0.270 WS/48
[U]93' Pippen[/u]... 20.1 ppg.. 16.9 PER.... 2.0 BPM.. 0.8 VORP.. 0.083 WS/48
[B]GAP.............. 15.0...........13.2............ 9.6........... 2.1............ 0.187[/B]
[u]92' Jordan[/u]... 34.5 ppg.. 27.2 PER.... 9.9 BPM.. 2.8 VORP.. 0.216 WS/48
[U]92' Pippen[/u]... 19.5 ppg.. 20.1 PER.... 6.6 BPM.. 2.0 VORP.. 0.168 WS/48
[B]GAP.............. 15.0.............7.1............ 3.3........... 0.8............ 0.048[/B]
[U]91' Jordan[/u]... 31.1 ppg.. 32.0 PER.. 14.6 BPM.. 2.9 VORP.. 0.333 WS/48
[U]91' Pippen[/u]... 21.6 ppg.. 22.0 PER.... 6.5 BPM.. 1.5 VORP.. 0.197 WS/48
[B]GAP................. 9.5..........10.0............ 1.4........... 0.6............ 0.136[/B]
[U]96' Jordan[/u]... 30.7 ppg.. 26.7 PER.. 10.7 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.317 WS/48
[U]96' Pippen[/u]... 16.9 ppg.. 19.4 PER.... 7.8 BPM.. 1.8 VORP.. 0.195 WS/48
[B]GAP.............. 13.8.............7.3............ 2.9........... 0.6............ 0.122[/B]
[U]97' Jordan[/u]... 31.1 ppg.. 27.1 PER.... 9.9 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.235 WS/48
[U]97' Pippen[/u]... 19.2 ppg.. 18.1 PER.... 5.1 BPM.. 1.4 VORP.. 0.145 WS/48
[B]GAP.............. 11.9.............9.1............ 4.8........... 1.0............ 0.090[/B]
[U]98' Jordan[/u]... 32.4 ppg.. 28.1 PER.... 9.0 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.265 WS/48
[U]98' Pippen[/u]... 16.8 ppg.. 19.4 PER.... 5.6 BPM.. 1.6 VORP.. 0.166 WS/48
[B]GAP.............. 16.4.............8.7............ 3.4........... 0.8............ 0.095[/B]
[Size=3][B]Conclusion[/B] - Jordan had 6 carry-job rings that were [U]far[/U] greater carry-jobs than 11' Dirk[/size]
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14166831]Like I said, people are free to Google and see what people were saying before Pippen got hurt. Just check the timestamp. Pippen got hurt in Game 5 and that shifted it to MJ but that doesn't negate dominance when Chicago built a 3-1 led.
The story was Pippen playing a "roving linebacker" role to wreck the Jazz offense (as all those people who watched it live said in those quotes). The Jazz couldn't execute their offense, Stockton, who MJ stans rave about, watched this all go down and had no counter move.
You were dismissing Rodman as a defender earlier. :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
"Shifted it to MJ" lol
Keep making shit up
Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP for a reason - his stats were nowhere near MJ's, and you can see the gap is much bigger than Dirk's advantage over bum Terry (previous post above)
So all 6 of MJ's Finals were far greater carry-jobs than 11' Dirk
Only MJ had to beat top 5 SRS teams with 15 on 41% (poor scoring and efficiency from their sidekick), so only MJ had carry-jobs against good teams.
Jordan averaged 33 and Pippen 15 in those Finals.... Career-wise, it's 34 to 19, so a 15 point edge for Jordan, with higher assists... That's goat gap BY FAR between 1st and 2nd option
[QUOTE=3ball;14166849].
[B]The gap between Dirk and his 2nd option... versus the gap between MJ and Pippen[/B]
[I]PLAYOFFS[/I]
[U]11' Dirk[/u]'........ 27.7 ppg.. 25.2 PER.. 5.5 BPM.. 1.6 VORP.. 0.210 WS/48
[U]11' Terry[/u]....... 17.5 ppg.. 20.3 PER.. 4.6 BPM.. 1.1 VORP.. 0.179 WS/48
[B]GAP............... 10.2...........4.9.............1.1.......... 0.5............ 0.031[/B]
[U]93' Jordan[/u]... 35.1 ppg.. 30.1 PER.. 11.6 BPM.. 2.9 VORP.. 0.270 WS/48
[U]93' Pippen[/u]... 20.1 ppg.. 16.9 PER.... 2.0 BPM.. 0.8 VORP.. 0.083 WS/48
[B]GAP.............. 15.0...........13.2............ 9.6........... 2.1............ 0.187[/B]
[u]92' Jordan[/u]... 34.5 ppg.. 27.2 PER.... 9.9 BPM.. 2.8 VORP.. 0.216 WS/48
[U]92' Pippen[/u]... 19.5 ppg.. 20.1 PER.... 6.6 BPM.. 2.0 VORP.. 0.168 WS/48
[B]GAP.............. 15.0.............7.1............ 3.3........... 0.8............ 0.048[/B]
[U]91' Jordan[/u]... 31.1 ppg.. 32.0 PER.. 14.6 BPM.. 2.9 VORP.. 0.333 WS/48
[U]91' Pippen[/u]... 21.6 ppg.. 22.0 PER.... 6.5 BPM.. 1.5 VORP.. 0.197 WS/48
[B]GAP................. 9.5..........10.0............ 1.4........... 0.6............ 0.136[/B]
[U]96' Jordan[/u]... 30.7 ppg.. 26.7 PER.. 10.7 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.317 WS/48
[U]96' Pippen[/u]... 16.9 ppg.. 19.4 PER.... 7.8 BPM.. 1.8 VORP.. 0.195 WS/48
[B]GAP.............. 13.8.............7.3............ 2.9........... 0.6............ 0.122[/B]
[U]97' Jordan[/u]... 31.1 ppg.. 27.1 PER.... 9.9 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.235 WS/48
[U]97' Pippen[/u]... 19.2 ppg.. 18.1 PER.... 5.1 BPM.. 1.4 VORP.. 0.145 WS/48
[B]GAP.............. 11.9.............9.1............ 4.8........... 1.0............ 0.090[/B]
[U]98' Jordan[/u]... 32.4 ppg.. 28.1 PER.... 9.0 BPM.. 2.4 VORP.. 0.265 WS/48
[U]98' Pippen[/u]... 16.8 ppg.. 19.4 PER.... 5.6 BPM.. 1.6 VORP.. 0.166 WS/48
[B]GAP.............. 16.4.............8.7............ 3.4........... 0.8............ 0.095[/B]
[Size=3][B]Conclusion[/B] - Jordan had 6 carry-job rings that were [U]far[/U] greater carry-jobs than 11' Dirk[/size][/QUOTE]
Why couldn’t MJ “carry” without Pippen?
[QUOTE=GrayGoat;14166852]Why couldn’t MJ “carry” without Pippen?[/QUOTE]
Pre-pippen was the super-team 80's, when a super-team was required to win the conference
Then Pippen came along as expansion was spreading the talent around and it became a 2-star vs 2-star format..
obviously, anyone wins alongside the goat in a 2-star format and pippen was the lucky, low-producing bum that came along at the perfect time..
The 2-star format allowed MJ to go 6/6 with a sidekick that averaged 19/7/5 on 42% in those 6 Finals (Paul George level)
[QUOTE=GrayGoat;14166852]Why couldn’t MJ “carry” without Pippen?[/QUOTE]
He got 20+ PPG from Woolridge or Oakley (20/15) in each playoff run before Pippen too and then got 20+ from Hamilton and Stackhouse. Yeah, MJ was old in DC but he is compared to KAJ who was all-NBA 1st team at that age without the benefit of 5 years off and LeBron who was 2nd in MVP in year 17.
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14166858]
He got 20+ PPG from Woolridge or Oakley (20/15) in each playoff run
.[/QUOTE]
^^^ that was the 80's, when many HOF's and a super-team was required to win the East
Then Pippen came along as expansion was spreading the talent around and it became a 2-star vs 2-star format..
obviously, anyone wins alongside the goat in a 2-star format and pippen was the lucky, low-producing bum that came along at the perfect time..
The 2-star format allowed MJ to go 6/6 with a sidekick that averaged 19/7/5 on 42% in those 6 Finals (Paul George level)
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14166858]He got 20+ PPG from Woolridge or Oakley (20/15) in each playoff run before Pippen too and then got 20+ from Hamilton and Stackhouse. Yeah, MJ was old in DC but he is compared to KAJ who was all-NBA 1st team at that age without the benefit of 5 years off and LeBron who was 2nd in MVP in year 17.[/QUOTE]
mike doesnt play defense pip showed him how
mike was just a tall allen iverson without pip thats why
mike needed the water temp in his sponge bath to be just right :oldlol:
not too hot, not too cold :oldlol:
No pip no chip, no papa phil no chip, no weak opponnet, no chip
[QUOTE=And1AllDay;14166865]mike doesnt play defense pip showed him how
mike was just a tall allen iverson without pip thats why
mike needed the water temp in his sponge bath to be just right :oldlol:
not too hot, not too cold :oldlol:
No pip no chip, no papa phil no chip, no weak opponnet, no chip[/QUOTE]
[INDENT]DPOY VOTING
1988.... MJ (1st).... Pip (none)
1989.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1990.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1991.... MJ (7th).... Pip (7th)
1992.... MJ (3rd).... Pip (3rd)
1993.... MJ (2nd)... Pip (none)
1996.... MJ (5th).... Pip (2nd)
1997.... MJ (5th).... Pip (4th)
1998.... MJ (4th).... Pip (9th)[/INDENT]
^^^^ MJ was clearly considered the better defender [B]AT THE TIME[/B], and Pippen's defensive capabilities have been vastly overrated by revisionist historians since... :confusedshrug:... the dpoy voting and various other sources (like the [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s]NBA[/url]) confirm the actual sentiment at the time (that MJ was the Bulls' best defender)
the reason for the revisionist history is simple: when new fans (including media) first heard about MJ's 6 rings, they looked up his roster and didn't see the star-laden cast they expected, or great stats from a sidekick.... so they concluded that Pippen's defense offset the lack of star power or good offensive stats - but this is simply ignorance about what was actually happening at the time
the reality is that the 1st three-peat Bulls were only ranked 7th defensively, so many guys had better defensive help than MJ, including Clyde's Blazers and many of Lebron's teams
[QUOTE=3ball;14166863]^^^ that was the 80's, when many HOF's and a super-team was required to win the East
Then Pippen came along as expansion was spreading the talent around and it became a 2-star vs 2-star format..
obviously, anyone wins alongside the goat in a 2-star format and pippen was the lucky, low-producing bum that came along at the perfect time..
The 2-star format allowed MJ to go 6/6 with a sidekick that averaged 19/7/5 on 42% in those 6 Finals ([B]Paul George level)[[/B]/QUOTE]
You're just jealous because Jordan never had a title run without an all nba 1st teamer in his prime. Kawhi 2019 Kawhi did. Paul George in the bubble wasn't close to ring Pippen.
Pippen during his rings was always better then Paul George.
Pippen BPM 1st 3peat: 5.1
Pippen BPM 2nd 3peat: 6.1
Pippen PER 1st 3peat: 20
Pippen PER 2nd 3peat: 19
Paul George BPM 2020 playoffs: 0.4
Paul Gorge PER 2020 playoffs: 15
So George is clearly the worse player. Clippers would of won the championship this year if George played like Pippen. Instead, we got bubble George AKA migrane headache Scottie.
[QUOTE=HBK_Kliq_2;14166909][QUOTE=3ball;14166863]^^^ that was the 80's, when many HOF's and a super-team was required to win the East
Then Pippen came along as expansion was spreading the talent around and it became a 2-star vs 2-star format..
obviously, anyone wins alongside the goat in a 2-star format and pippen was the lucky, low-producing bum that came along at the perfect time..
The 2-star format allowed MJ to go 6/6 with a sidekick that averaged 19/7/5 on 42% in those 6 Finals ([B]Paul George level)[[/B]/QUOTE]
You're just jealous because Jordan never had a title run without an all nba 1st teamer in his prime. Kawhi 2019 Kawhi did. Paul George in the bubble wasn't close to ring Pippen.
Pippen during his rings was always better then Paul George.
Pippen BPM 1st 3peat: 5.1
Pippen BPM 2nd 3peat: 6.1
Pippen PER 1st 3peat: 20
Pippen PER 2nd 3peat: 19
Paul George BPM 2020 playoffs: 0.4
Paul Gorge PER 2020 playoffs: 15
So George is clearly the worse player. Clippers would of won the championship this year if George played like Pippen. Instead, we got bubble George AKA migrane headache Scottie.[/QUOTE]
Bingo. MJ wasn’t capable of winning without an all nba 1st teamer
[QUOTE=LAmbruh;14165764]The fact that there was 5 guys in their mid-30's making All-Defensive teams in 1998 reminds us all how weak that era was
Out of the 10 players from 1st and 2nd team, only two were champions (Scottie, Ordan) :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
In terms of star talent, Mid-late 90s was without question the weakest era in nba history post the ABA merger. Late 80s and the late 10s have been the strongest.
I'm not sure you can name a single player who peaked between '96 and '99 who is a clear cut top 50 player all time. The late 90s was old mean beating up on raw 20 year old will-be-greats and mid-late 20s not-quite-greats. The exceptions were Shaq and DRob, and both those guys spent big chunks of Jordan's 2nd 3peat injured.
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14166771]Pippen was always a winner w/out Jordan; Jordan was always a loser w/out Pippen.
Jordan was voted in in DC--he wasn't a legit all-star. The same way Grant Hill got voted in or Kobe while being a bench player/4th option.[/QUOTE]
They were both losers without each other dude. Mj was always a star regardless of the situation. Cant say the same with pip. Again just imagine if kawhi leonard put up 16/7/6 on 42% shooting in any series. Yall would kill him even with his impact defensively. But now all of a sudden those numbers are amazing. Pip was a perfect compliment to mj and that bulls team but he wasn't that guy. Even phil didn't believe in him. Why do you think he always gave the ball to Kukoc in the crunch time?
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14166858]He got 20+ PPG from Woolridge or Oakley (20/15) in each playoff run before Pippen too and then got 20+ from Hamilton and Stackhouse. Yeah, MJ was old in DC but he is compared to KAJ who was all-NBA 1st team at that age without the benefit of 5 years off and LeBron who was 2nd in MVP in year 17.[/QUOTE]
This is why Jordan has zero argument for longevity.
Kareem and LeBron in their 14th and 15th seasons were making playoffs.
[QUOTE=8Ball;14167003]This is why Jordan has zero argument for longevity.
Kareem and LeBron in their 14th and 15th seasons were making playoffs.[/QUOTE]
Zero argument? At 35 he won mvp, fmvp, scoring title, first team defense and a chip. Has anyone done that at 35?
[QUOTE=HBK_Kliq_2;14166909][QUOTE=3ball;14166863]^^^ that was the 80's, when many HOF's and a super-team was required to win the East
Then Pippen came along as expansion was spreading the talent around and it became a 2-star vs 2-star format..
obviously, anyone wins alongside the goat in a 2-star format and pippen was the lucky, low-producing bum that came along at the perfect time..
The 2-star format allowed MJ to go 6/6 with a sidekick that averaged 19/7/5 on 42% in those 6 Finals ([B]Paul George level)[[/B]/QUOTE]
You're just jealous because Jordan never had a title run without an all nba 1st teamer in his prime. Kawhi 2019 Kawhi did. Paul George in the bubble wasn't close to ring Pippen.
Pippen during his rings was always better then Paul George.
Pippen BPM 1st 3peat: 5.1
Pippen BPM 2nd 3peat: 6.1
Pippen PER 1st 3peat: 20
Pippen PER 2nd 3peat: 19
Paul George BPM 2020 playoffs: 0.4
Paul Gorge PER 2020 playoffs: 15
So George is clearly the worse player. Clippers would of won the championship this year if George played like Pippen. Instead, we got bubble George AKA migrane headache Scottie.[/QUOTE]
You're comparing George's worst to pippen's best
Compare George's worst to pippen's worst and it's the same, or Pippen is worse
But of course a dropout lebron fan is so dumb that they compare best to worst and act like it's viable argument
[QUOTE=And1AllDay;14165784]bran was rim protector fmvp for two full playoff runs of defrtg 100 and below
mike never did this :( he never had the defense impact like bran
and bran is the playoff steals leader and mike is #3 behind his own teammate pip :oldlol:
your done[/QUOTE]
LOL Lebron has NEVER been a rim protector. Jordan is 3 inches shorter and averages just as many blocks per game as LeFraud. And the fact of the matter is Jordan has 3 seasons (1.2, 1.5, 1.6 bpg) that are better than Lebrons best (1.1)
Your steals argument is a joke, they're longevity numbers. LeBron has 1 season, his 2nd season, where he averaged 2 SPG while MJ has done it 10x with one season over 3.
GTFOH
Marcus Smart just won DPOY. Lebron couldn't.