Hey Micku, what's your opinion on the conversation Kuniva and I are having? Not sure if you read it
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Hey Micku, what's your opinion on the conversation Kuniva and I are having? Not sure if you read it
And with the Shaq and MJ thing?
My 2cents is that Shaq would respect MJ just because he was older and was the man initially. He would follow his lead.
The thing with Shaq and Kobe was that Kobe was the golden boy. Young kid who really wanted it and challenged everyone, but the Shaq was the leader. Shaq was always the guy on his team. He was always the best player.
It wouldn't happen like that if you paired him up with MJ. Especially in 88 when MJ went crazy. MVP, DPOY, scoring title and all that? Plus you had Oakley on the team. They would treat him like they would treat all rookies. But eventually, Shaq ego would get to him I would say.
And MJ was similar to Kobe. He would the guys to work as hard and be mentally tough. What is different from those two that MJ would go to Shaq's parties or MJ would invite Shaq to parties.
Phil Jackson even mentioned this:
[quote]
"Michael was more charismatic and gregarious than Kobe," Jackson says in the book. "He loved hanging out with his teammates and security guards, playing cards, smoking cigars, and joking around."
That just wasn't Kobe. According to Jackson, he kept to himself—a self-imposed isolation that he attributed to the absence of the collegiate experience.
[/quote]
[url]https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1641637-phil-jackson-breaks-down-michael-jordan-vs-kobe-bryant-comparisons[/url]
There were stories when Shaq would invite Kobe to some clubs or parties or whatever, and Kobe would not go. I read somewhere that this rubbed Shaq the wrong way, but he tried to shrug it off. MJ would've gone. This would've helped their relationship. Or since MJ was the leader and Shaq's senior, MJ would've invited Shaq.
Kobe had to learn to be a better teammate as time went on. But MJ was better than Kobe at the start, so it would've helped with Shaq. And MJ played better with the team concept than Kobe did. He let the offensive game come to him more and he was better at defense. Kobe tended to force things.
[quote]
"Jordan was also more naturally inclined to let the game come to him and not overplay his hand, whereas Kobe tends to force the action, especially when the game isn't going his way," he explains. "When his shot is off, Kobe will pound away relentlessly until his luck turns. Michael, on the other hand, would shift his attention to defense or passing or setting screens to help the team win the game."
[/quote]
And even Phil Jackson said that MJ was a better leader.
[quote]
The biggest difference between the two, though? Leadership.
Jordan's congenial persona made for a better leader. Again, he benefited from three years at North Carolina that helped expand his value, both tactically and emotionally. But he had an inherent knack for elevating the play of his teammates, no matter how tough he was on them.
Kobe, meanwhile, has found himself at the center of many internal controversies. His mindset has never been the same as Jordan's, and he's therefore been unable to have as profound an impact on his teammates.
"Though at times he could be hard on his teammates, Michael was masterful at controlling the emotional climate of the team with the power of his presence," Jackson confesses. "Kobe had a long way to go before he could make that claim. He talked a good game, but he'd yet to experience the cold truth of leadership in his bones, as Michael had."
[/quote]
[url]https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1641637-phil-jackson-breaks-down-michael-jordan-vs-kobe-bryant-comparisons[/url]
Kobe got better over time as a leader, but MJ was ahead at that stand point. This would all contribute to a better relationship between MJ and Shaq I would say. MJ wouldn't force the game. He let the game come to him offensively and was more active on defense. MJ was more a ppl person and etc. Plus you had Phil Jackson at the helm.
What would break them up might not be ego necessary (although it could've been), it would've been money. I don't think Shaq would do the same thing Pippen did. Shaq's ego probably would've gotten to his head, especially when MJ left. More so than Pippen. Shaq would've done the same thing as Pippen and healed on company time obviously. But Shaq definitely would've been after the money. Granted, money back then isn't the same as money now. The team would've been a lot different. They probably would've still won and they probably would've beat Detroit in the 80s if Shaq was there, but I don't know if they would stay together as long as MJ/Pippen. He probably would've went to LA anyway because of business opportunities. He would be after the biggest paycheck.
[QUOTE=97 bulls;14477954]Interesting. But I stated such. I don't see anything wrong with getting mad at your teammates for giving the bare minimum. Especially when you as the teams best player is giving 110%.
Jordan berated his teammates. Telling the flight attendant to not give Grant food because he had a bad game? Punching Steve Kerr for playing hard defense? Bullying players? I'm just not hearing that from other alltime greats teammates.
And Jordan wasn't friendly with his teammates. Pippen and Rodman said they never talked outside of the game. The same for the rest of their teammates. They all lived in their own world.[/QUOTE]
Kobe was similar. He didn't really talk to his teammates. Especially in the beginning. And for the fights?
Well, we only know what was said. There is probably a lot stuff lol. As the saying goes, "There are known knowns, and there are knowns unknowns. But there also unknown unknowns." We do know Kobe and Shaq got into it a few times. There are a lot of things we don't know about. Did you know Kobe slapped Samaki Walker across the face cuz he didn't have the $100 to give to Kobe from the bet that they made?
Walker was telling Phil Jackson to stop the bus so he could fight Kobe. Kobe didn't apologize till later.
[url]https://www.sportscasting.com/kobe-bryant-once-nearly-got-into-a-fight-with-a-teammate-over-100/[/url]
In terms of in game stuff? Kobe was similar to MJ. Saying harsh things and whatever. We don't know everything, but it's there. He was pretty rowdy. Especially in the Shaq/Kobe era when Kobe younger than most of the guys there and wasn't the best player.
Kobe once made a teammate cry because he told him he needs to rethink his life purpose about playing basketball.
[quote]
"I have, I have made somebody cry before. There are certain players I have made cry ... there's one teammate that was just so bad. He was so bad. It wasn't Kwame [Brown]. Kwame actually wasn't that bad. I tease Kwame a lot. It wasn't Smush [Parker]. It was a player you guys won't even remember if I said what his name was. I can't even pronounce his name. It was like some European kid. I don't know. But he was really, really bad. I said, 'You know, dude, you might want to reconsider what your life purpose is. Maybe it's not this.' I was like twenty-something. I don't know. I was really young."
[/quote]
[url]https://www.businessinsider.com/kobe-bryant-made-a-teammate-cry-2015-7[/url]
He later apologized cuz it didn't come out the way he wanted to. But he did similar stuff as MJ did. But MJ was.....I dunno....more of a people person...which is weird to say. Kobe got better later.
But yeah. I think Pippen was the perfect compliment to MJ.
Even with Shaq, I don't think it would work out as long. As you said 97 bulls, egos would probably clash, but I'm guessing not as hard as Kobe/Shaq. Like MJ wouldn't say "Shaq gave his women hush money," to the press I think. But I think it would be money that would break them up. Shaq was always after the money.
I think he would work wonderfully with Hakeem, but post religion when he became Muslim. His faith helped him a lot. Before, he was like MJ I think. Probably worse? I think he was super quick to snap and super competitive. I dunno. I gott'a read up on it again. But then again, him and MJ would respect the hell outta of each other, but it could've been hell for the other teammates and the league. lol! But they were used to it I think. Hakeem learned how to pass better later tho.
KG would've been a perfect compliment tho. He was pretty loyal. But the dude was crazy, haha. But the defense would've been more intense.
Tim Duncan would've been cool as well in terms of in game. But their personalities does not mesh well. I don't know how it would go. Similar to Pippen, they would probably not be friends off the court. That's okay tho. But Phil Jackson would love Duncan.
Wilt and MJ would not work at all I assume...but who knows.
Bill Russell and MJ would've.
There are a lot of fun combinations. But MJ/Pippen done wonders. You could probably argue that with another star, they could probably win in the 80s maybe. Get over the hump with the Pistons. They wouldn't triple team MJ anymore. But MJ/Pippen is pretty much the gold standard of the modern nba.
[QUOTE=Micku;14477958]Kobe was similar. He didn't really talk to his teammates. Especially in the beginning. And for the fights?
Well, we only know what was said. There is probably a lot stuff lol. As the saying goes, "There are known knowns, and there are knowns unknowns. But there also unknown unknowns." We do know Kobe and Shaq got into it a few times. There are a lot of things we don't know about. Did you know Kobe slapped Samaki Walker across the face cuz he didn't have the $100 to give to Kobe from the bet that they made?
Walker was telling Phil Jackson to stop the bus so he could fight Kobe. Kobe didn't apologize till later.
[url]https://www.sportscasting.com/kobe-bryant-once-nearly-got-into-a-fight-with-a-teammate-over-100/[/url]
In terms of in game stuff? Kobe was similar to MJ. Saying harsh things and whatever. We don't know everything, but it's there. He was pretty rowdy. Especially in the Shaq/Kobe era when Kobe younger than most of the guys there and wasn't the best player.
Kobe once made a teammate cry because he told him he needs to rethink his life purpose about playing basketball.
[url]https://www.businessinsider.com/kobe-bryant-made-a-teammate-cry-2015-7[/url]
He later apologized cuz it didn't come out the way he wanted to. But he did similar stuff as MJ did. But MJ was.....I dunno....more of a people person...which is weird to say. Kobe got better later.[/QUOTE]
Slapping a guy for not giving you the money he owes you is wrong, but not a bad teammate in my opinion. I don't believe Bryant made a teammate cry because he told him that basketball wasn't for him lol. That's one of those silly Paul Bunyan type tales like the one where Jordan supposedly ruined Mugsey Bouges career because he called him a midget. Or the one about how Wilt Chamberlain stopped to take a piss on the side of a road and a mountain lion attacked him and he threw it back into the bushes. Or that he dunked a ball so hard that the ball broke Red Kerrs foot.
[QUOTE=Micku;14477956]And with the Shaq and MJ thing?
My 2cents is that Shaq would respect MJ just because he was older and was the man initially. He would follow his lead.
The thing with Shaq and Kobe was that Kobe was the golden boy. Young kid who really wanted it and challenged everyone, but the Shaq was the leader. Shaq was always the guy on his team. He was always the best player.
It wouldn't happen like that if you paired him up with MJ. Especially in 88 when MJ went crazy. MVP, DPOY, scoring title and all that? Plus you had Oakley on the team. They would treat him like they would treat all rookies. But eventually, Shaq ego would get to him I would say.
And MJ was similar to Kobe. He would the guys to work as hard and be mentally tough. What is different from those two that MJ would go to Shaq's parties or MJ would invite Shaq to parties.
Phil Jackson even mentioned this:
[url]https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1641637-phil-jackson-breaks-down-michael-jordan-vs-kobe-bryant-comparisons[/url]
There were stories when Shaq would invite Kobe to some clubs or parties or whatever, and Kobe would not go. I read somewhere that this rubbed Shaq the wrong way, but he tried to shrug it off. MJ would've gone. This would've helped their relationship. Or since MJ was the leader and Shaq's senior, MJ would've invited Shaq.
Kobe had to learn to be a better teammate as time went on. But MJ was better than Kobe at the start, so it would've helped with Shaq. And MJ played better with the team concept than Kobe did. He let the offensive game come to him more and he was better at defense. Kobe tended to force things.
And even Phil Jackson said that MJ was a better leader.
[url]https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1641637-phil-jackson-breaks-down-michael-jordan-vs-kobe-bryant-comparisons[/url]
Kobe got better over time as a leader, but MJ was ahead at that stand point. This would all contribute to a better relationship between MJ and Shaq I would say. MJ wouldn't force the game. He let the game come to him offensively and was more active on defense. MJ was more a ppl person and etc. Plus you had Phil Jackson at the helm.
What would break them up might not be ego necessary (although it could've been), it would've been money. I don't think Shaq would do the same thing Pippen did. Shaq's ego probably would've gotten to his head, especially when MJ left. More so than Pippen. Shaq would've done the same thing as Pippen and healed on company time obviously. But Shaq definitely would've been after the money. Granted, money back then isn't the same as money now. The team would've been a lot different. They probably would've still won and they probably would've beat Detroit in the 80s if Shaq was there, but I don't know if they would stay together as long as MJ/Pippen. He probably would've went to LA anyway because of business opportunities. He would be after the biggest paycheck.[/QUOTE]
Again, I don't know much of that is true. I remember Kobe saying he didn't fo to clubs with teammates because he was too young to get in the club.
Steve Kerr, Jud Buechler, and Bills Wennington said they didn't have a relationship with Jordan and Pippen outside of the court. Pippen, Grant, and Rodman stated the same thing. So somebody's lying lol
[QUOTE=Micku;14477969]But yeah. I think Pippen was the perfect compliment to MJ.
Even with Shaq, I don't think it would work out as long. As you said 97 bulls, egos would probably clash, but I'm guessing not as hard as Kobe/Shaq. Like MJ wouldn't say "Shaq gave his women hush money," to the press I think. But I think it would be money that would break them up. Shaq was always after the money.
I think he would work wonderfully with Hakeem, but post religion when he became Muslim. His faith helped him a lot. Before, he was like MJ I think. Probably worse? I think he was super quick to snap and super competitive. I dunno. I gott'a read up on it again. But then again, him and MJ would respect the hell outta of each other, but it could've been hell for the other teammates and the league. lol! But they were used to it I think. Hakeem learned how to pass better later tho.
KG would've been a perfect compliment tho. He was pretty loyal. But the dude was crazy, haha. But the defense would've been more intense.
Tim Duncan would've been cool as well in terms of in game. But their personalities does not mesh well. I don't know how it would go. Similar to Pippen, they would probably not be friends off the court. That's okay tho. But Phil Jackson would love Duncan.
Wilt and MJ would not work at all I assume...but who knows.
Bill Russell and MJ would've.
There are a lot of fun combinations. But MJ/Pippen done wonders. You could probably argue that with another star, they could probably win in the 80s maybe. Get over the hump with the Pistons. They wouldn't triple team MJ anymore. But MJ/Pippen is pretty much the gold standard of the modern nba.[/QUOTE]
There's a lot of guys that I believe could've won with MJ. But how long? And at what cost? Kobe would've never been looked at as the same player he is today if he didn't play outside of Shaqs shadow. Hell, I'd feel similar to many about Pippen if he didn't do what he did in 94 and 95. Most felt that if Jordan left the Bulls, they stink to the highest of the heavens. Like Draymond Green when he was asked to keep the Warriors afloat.
If anything, I think Pippen actually regrets staying and playing alongside MJ for so long. It seems to me he'd get more respect had he left the Bulls and maybe won an MVP and DPOY, but only won 2 Championships. Which is crazy to me.
Reading Pippen's book, confirms that he was a team player. He was about winning. He wasn't in to stats.
[QUOTE=97 bulls;14478055]There's a lot of guys that I believe could've won with MJ. But how long? And at what cost? Kobe would've never been looked at as the same player he is today if he didn't play outside of Shaqs shadow. Hell, I'd feel similar to many about Pippen if he didn't do what he did in 94 and 95. Most felt that if Jordan left the Bulls, they stink to the highest of the heavens. Like Draymond Green when he was asked to keep the Warriors afloat.
If anything, I think Pippen actually regrets staying and playing alongside MJ for so long. It seems to me he'd get more respect had he left the Bulls and maybe won an MVP and DPOY, but only won 2 Championships. Which is crazy to me.
[B]Reading Pippen's book, confirms that he was a team player. He was about winning. He wasn't in to stats[/B].[/QUOTE]
Dude literally checks himself out of a crucial game because his coach chose a fair decision
And 20 years later he said he would do it again if given a chance to relive it while calling Phil Jackson a racist for doing so
What a team player he was
[QUOTE=97 bulls;14478054]Again, I don't know much of that is true. I remember Kobe saying he didn't fo to clubs with teammates because he was too young to get in the club.
Steve Kerr, Jud Buechler, and Bills Wennington said they didn't have a relationship with Jordan and Pippen outside of the court. Pippen, Grant, and Rodman stated the same thing. So somebody's lying lol[/QUOTE]
Yeah, that's true. Kobe said he didn't go to clubs cuz he was too young. But as a nba player, you could get around that. lol! Not to say he should. But he was loner pretty much he was younger.
And with MJ, it was probably more of a prospective thing with Phil Jackson part rather than lying. MJ would invite guys to dinner, play cards and such. There were some articles that mentioned that and you could see it on The Last Dance documentary and other documentaries about MJ. They would do it on the bus or plane or whatever. But they don't go on the banana boat like LeBron and D-Wade. It seems like Kobe didn't do any of these things. It was more like go to practice and get out. And talk trash while you were if things get heated. But you don't always have to a better relationship with yo teammates to succeed. Magic and Kareem didn't really talk for years when they played together.
Kerr also mentioned that it was easier to play with Tim Duncan than it was with MJ. MJ it felt like you played for him rather than with him. But he also mentioned that he had such a intense competitive fire or whatever that it affected his opponents too.
Regardless, I just mention the whole MJ leadership thing because it seemed like Shaq and MJ would possibly get along a little better than Kobe and Shaq. MJ was older, a bit more mature, and had more experience in the leadership category. And him and Shaq would be more interactive than Kobe and Shaq were. Both were hard on their teammates tho.
[QUOTE=97 bulls;14478055]There's a lot of guys that I believe could've won with MJ. But how long? And at what cost? Kobe would've never been looked at as the same player he is today if he didn't play outside of Shaqs shadow. Hell, I'd feel similar to many about Pippen if he didn't do what he did in 94 and 95. Most felt that if Jordan left the Bulls, they stink to the highest of the heavens. Like Draymond Green when he was asked to keep the Warriors afloat.
If anything, I think Pippen actually regrets staying and playing alongside MJ for so long. It seems to me he'd get more respect had he left the Bulls and maybe won an MVP and DPOY, but only won 2 Championships. Which is crazy to me.
[B]Reading Pippen's book, confirms that he was a team player. He was about winning. He wasn't in to stats.[/B][/QUOTE]
I don't know if it confirms that to the masses.
I'm sure some ppl do agree with that. I also think he is a team player to an certain extent. He might be like Tim Duncan where the stats don't really show the significance of his play on the floor.
But from the lines that I saw, from the ppl that review the book, it seems he was a bit whiny. I don't think the media or the fans of the masses would change their mind about Pippen. Ppl who think he was underrated would still say he is, ppl who think he is overrated would say he still is. And the fans in the middle, that may change and his peers, and the generation of nba players who care about the past. He said he thought MJ ruined the game of basketball too. Talking about the iso game. When MJ's game was 3 dribbles or less when it comes to attack and the defense was amazing. Players were in awe of the next generation and even the generation after that. Players idolize MJ, even now. But they are more with Kobe. Nowadays, ppl are going to idolize Curry, LeBron, KD.
But I think Pippen made a bunch of mistakes if he was trying to get ppl on his side about it.
I still got to read the whole book myself when I get the time. lol! But honestly, it seems to give out a negative impression. It doesn't really seem like he is a team player, but more jealous of the attention MJ got. Although he definitely was a team player in those championship runs. But all of them were. Including MJ, but MJ was MJ.
[QUOTE=Micku;14478072]I don't know if it confirms that to the masses.
I'm sure some ppl do agree with that. I also think he is a team player to an certain extent. He might be like Tim Duncan where the stats don't really show the significance of his play on the floor.
But from the lines that I saw, from the ppl that review the book, it seems he was a bit whiny. I don't think the media or the fans of the masses would change their mind about Pippen. Ppl who think he was underrated would still say he is, ppl who think he is overrated would say he still is. And the fans in the middle, that may change and his peers, and the generation of nba players who care about the past. He said he thought MJ ruined the game of basketball too. Talking about the iso game. When MJ's game was 3 dribbles or less when it comes to attack and the defense was amazing. Players were in awe of the next generation and even the generation after that. Players idolize MJ, even now. But they are more with Kobe. Nowadays, ppl are going to idolize Curry, LeBron, KD.
But I think Pippen made a bunch of mistakes if he was trying to get ppl on his side about it.
I still got to read the whole book myself when I get the time. lol! But honestly, it seems to give out a negative impression. It doesn't really seem like he is a team player, but more jealous of the attention MJ got. Although he definitely was a team player in those championship runs. But all of them were. Including MJ, but MJ was MJ.[/QUOTE]
There's nothing interesting there that would make him whiney. He actually gives MJ a lot of credit. The problem is that Jordan fans have gone out of their way the demean the teammates of Mixhael Jordan. I've never seen a player be excused for so much lol. But what is Pippen saying that makes him whiney? His problem with the Last Dance was that it didn't catch the participation of Jordan's teammates. And I agree. So did Grant, Cartwright, Hodges, Harper, even Longley. I mean, why did Jordan leave out all the great moments of his teammates? Even if he felt compelled to offer his perfect of 94,m and Pippen sitting out, why not acknowledge the bad call Hue Hollins made?
What makes Pippen whiney?
[QUOTE=97 bulls;14478076]There's nothing interesting there that would make him whiney. He actually gives MJ a lot of credit. The problem is that Jordan fans have gone out of their way the demean the teammates of Mixhael Jordan. I've never seen a player be excused for so much lol. But what is Pippen saying that makes him whiney? His problem with the Last Dance was that it didn't catch the participation of Jordan's teammates. And I agree. So did Grant, Cartwright, Hodges, Harper, even Longley. I mean, why did Jordan leave out all the great moments of his teammates? Even if he felt compelled to offer his perfect of 94,m and Pippen sitting out, why not acknowledge the bad call Hue Hollins made?
What makes Pippen whiney?[/QUOTE]
Because as much as he mentions how much of a team player he is, which I think he was with his play style, he also mentions a lot of "Is". Like I was as valuable. How come they didn't show the steal that "I" did in game 6 of the Jazz. He did say, what MJ did was nothing special but to pass it to the open man. We were always taught to do that. How come they didn't show our comeback in game 6 in 1992 without MJ? How come they didn't show the trash talk I gave to Karl Malone when I said, "The Mailman don't deliver on Sundays?"
I heard he talks about how he wasn't a starter in all-star 1990 but he was behind Bird and Barkley that year.
There are some things rather interesting. Like how he grew up and he develop the person that he was/is today. And how he treated the team like family in his own right and that everyone has a specific role and such. But there are some things that I think might not fly.
Like the Bulls in game 6 against Portland, the Bulls came back with MJ. But then MJ scored like 12 pts in those 8 and half mins. And MJ hit some clutch shots. So, it would've been back to MJ in the first place. And the whole Doug Collins thing and how they didn't play team ball. But when they did pass it to the role players, especially during the Pistons game, when they were open, it was bunch of bricks. Like they literally left them open. They didn't care as long as it wasn't MJ. MJ was getting like double to triple to four guys on him. I haven't gotten to that part yet when he talks about it, so I might eventually when I get time, so he could mention that as well.
He talked about Sam Vincent and his role was to get the ball to MJ and that's how they went on their run in 88 in their last 13 games. But I don't know if he mentioned that MJ averaged like 38.8 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 4.8 apg, 3.4 stls, 1.1 blks, on 56% shooting. Although he did mention his scoring seasons in the 80s and just being in awe of how he scored with the fastbreak and iso plays. He talked about him calling Phil was a racist was a coping mechanism.
But with his interviews, it just handled the wrong way. Like everything about this seems to be handling the wrong way judging from the reactions from everyone.
I do think he has some points, but it's not executed the best. Plus MJ is MJ. I mean....it is hard to compete with that. I do doubt Pippen will ever gets the respect he wants from the masses, media, peers, or even current generation of stars. However, he make some solid points and ppl should study his game too as well as MJ. The book seems entertaining from another prospective for sure. But to convince ppl he is just as valuable as MJ, that's not going to happen. And judging the reactions from ppl, they not going to share that view anytime soon. From what I seen, ppl think it's embarrassing.
I think what he should emphasis, more so than his own self worth to the team, is that the team was better without MJ than ppl actually think. Obviously not in the beginning cuz that team was trash, but they later they were underrated. That they were a great team than a one man show. Although MJ carried them offensively and made them one of the GOAT teams, but they were real solid without him too. But I don't know anything. This is what Pippen choice to put out there in the public. I just think it'll backfire on how ppl view him.
[QUOTE=97 bulls;14478051]Slapping a guy for not giving you the money he owes you is wrong, but not a bad teammate in my opinion. I don't believe Bryant made a teammate cry because he told him that basketball wasn't for him lol. That's one of those silly Paul Bunyan type tales like the one where Jordan supposedly ruined Mugsey Bouges career because he called him a midget. Or the one about how Wilt Chamberlain stopped to take a piss on the side of a road and a mountain lion attacked him and he threw it back into the bushes. Or that he dunked a ball so hard that the ball broke Red Kerrs foot.[/QUOTE]
Hahah! Well, Kobe actually said it. He said he made a few players cry.
And we don't know what he said to the other players. What don't know to what extent or how hard he pushed his teammates either other than he was pretty hard. I know there are some books out there that might give you a glimpse of what happened, but I haven't read it. But what is more popular and out there are the Bulls with MJ. So we know more about them than we do about any other locker room. It happens.
But we do know that with the Spurs with Tim Duncan had no drama other than that Tony Parker thing. And we know James Harden go crazy at the strip clubs and the rockets let him do whatever he wants while he was with him.
[QUOTE=Micku;14478083]Because as much as he mentions how much of a team player he is, which I think he was with his play style, he also mentions a lot of "Is". Like I was as valuable. How come they didn't show the steal that "I" did in game 6 of the Jazz. He did say, what MJ did was nothing special but to pass it to the open man. We were always taught to do that. How come they didn't show [B]our comeback[/B] in game 6 in 1992 without MJ? How come they didn't show the trash talk I gave to Karl Malone when I said, "The Mailman don't deliver on Sundays?"[/QUOTE]
Lol. Bro. He said our as in team. He mentions Bobby Hanson by name and said he starts off hitting a big three. He also brings up the other players that were on the court with him He never mentioned that he also scored 12pts in the 4th and hit the go ahead basket in the clutch. And I believe he even mentioned that Jordan came back in and finished the job. But how is that whiney? And how can that possibly be selfish? Even more, why did MJ leave that out?
[QUOTE]I heard he talks about how he wasn't a starter in all-star 1990 but he was behind Bird and Barkley that year.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I thought that was crazy. Or was it that he didn't make the Allstar team in 91? I'd have to go back and read it again.
There are some things rather interesting. Like how he grew up and he develop the person that he was/is today. And how he treated the team like family in his own right and that everyone has a specific role and such. But there are some things that I think might not fly.
[QUOTE]Like the Bulls in game 6 against Portland, the Bulls came back with MJ. But then MJ scored like 12 pts in those 8 and half mins. And MJ hit some clutch shots. So, it would've been back to MJ in the first place. And the whole Doug Collins thing and how they didn't play team ball. But when they did pass it to the role players, especially during the Pistons game, when they were open, it was bunch of bricks. Like they literally left them open. They didn't care as long as it wasn't MJ. MJ was getting like double to triple to four guys on him. I haven't gotten to that part yet when he talks about it, so I might eventually when I get time, so he could mention that as well.[/QUOTE] Lol. Bro. That's not how basketball as a team game works. The Bulls didn't really run an offense. It was Jordan trying to get his shot off and guys watching. No spacing, no movement, no direction, guys trying to get out of Jordan's way, and while they may be "open", they're not in their comfort zone. That's pickup ball.
[QUOTE]He talked about Sam Vincent and his role was to get the ball to MJ and that's how they went on their run in 88 in their last 13 games. But I don't know if he mentioned that MJ averaged like 38.8 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 4.8 apg, 3.4 stls, 1.1 blks, on 56% shooting.[/QUOTE]
Although he did mention his scoring seasons in the 80s and just being in awe of how he scored with the fastbreak and iso plays. He talked about him calling Phil was a racist was a coping mechanism.
This is Pippen's story. Not Jordan's. That's how it was framed in rebuttal to Jordan's teammates voicing their displeasure. See the double standard?
[QUOTE]I do think he has some points, but it's not executed the best. Plus MJ is MJ. I mean....it is hard to compete with that. I do doubt Pippen will ever gets the respect he wants from the masses, media, peers, or even current generation of stars. However, he make some solid points and ppl should study his game too as well as MJ. The book seems entertaining from another prospective for sure. But to convince ppl he is just as valuable as MJ, that's not going to happen. And judging the reactions from ppl, they not going to share that view anytime soon. From what I seen, ppl think it's embarrassing.
I think what he should emphasis, more so than his own self worth to the team, is that the team was better without MJ than ppl actually think. Obviously not in the beginning cuz that team was trash, but they later they were underrated. That they were a great team than a one man show. Although MJ carried them offensively and made them one of the GOAT teams, but they were real solid without him too. But I don't know anything. This is what Pippen choice to put out there in the public. I just think it'll backfire on how ppl view him.[/QUOTE]
It didn't backfire, I'm starting to see people see his pov. What did he lie about? He was as important to Jordan with regards to the Bulls winning those 6 titles. Jordan was the best, but he was equally as important. The problem is these media guys that are voicing their displeasure with Pippen aren't willing to debate the subject.
I agree with Micku that Pippen's way of doing things is going to backfire with people. The public is more likely to come away from this thinking "Geez Jordan led that headcase to so many rings..." rather than "Pippen was as important as Jordan." Neither of course is a true statement but people are more likely to come away thinking the first. This book sours people's views on Pippen IMO.
[QUOTE=dankok8;14478172]I agree with Micku that Pippen's way of doing things is going to backfire with people. The public is more likely to come away from this thinking "Geez [SIZE=6]Jordan led that headcase to so many rings[/SIZE]..." rather than "Pippen was as important as Jordan." Neither of course is a true statement but people are more likely to come away thinking the first. This book sours people's views on Pippen IMO.[/QUOTE]
the historical record shows that Pippen is a headcase:
[indent]* he never hit a big shot in 2 decades
* he claimed to have a "migraine" that tricked off the 1990 title (headcase)
* he was TARGETED by opponents like the Bad Boys or 92' Knicks as someone that could be broken (16 on 40% vs those teams)
* he sat out in 1994 (historic choke) and committed a [url=https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-27-2021/W44XtX.gif]dumb foul[/url] on Hubert Davis... and had a horrible Game 7
* he lost a 17 point lead in the 4th quarter to trick off the 2000 title
* he missed critical FT's all the time, like right before Reggie Miller's historic game-winner over Jordan in 98' that nearly won the series and tricked off the 98' title
* peers like [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siFPMd7UAfQ&t=0m47s]Shaq[/url] and [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEmjX4T18iU&t=13m42s]Barkley[/url] say Pippen was weak mentally... ditto [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEmjX4T18iU&t=14m07s]Isiah[/url][/indent]
So Jordan carried a headcase to 6 titles - MJ had to "raise" and carry a sniveling, immature, low-producing player to 6 chips.. there's never been a bigger statistical gap between 1st and 2nd option or mental gap
[QUOTE=97 bulls;14477888]You didn't debunk anything Kaniva. You keep conflating scenarios. Stay with me here. We're comparing Jordan and Pippens situation to others. Jordan and Pippen were close in age. But Jordan was obviously established and was there first. So you have to apply the same concept to Jordan and Shaq or Shaq and Jordan. Now here's where you mess up. You stated that Shaq respected MJ when he (Shaq) was a kid. I believe Shaq is roughly 10 years younger than MJ. So that makes sense. But that wasn't the same scenario that Jordan and Pippen were in seeing as how they're only a couple years apart in age. Jordan had been in the league 8 years before Shaq. Jordan was working on his 3rd Championship, had multiple MVPs, DPOY etc. Of course Shaq respected MJ lol. But again that's not the Scenario. It has to be a scenario similar to Pippen and Jordan. Where one has been in the league a couple years before the other arrives. I don't see why Shaq would hold MJ in such a high regard since Jordan hadn't accomplished much yet. You're trying to put early 2000s Shaq and early 90s MJ together. When both were at their apex and established. There has to be a progression. If they both join forces, something has to give. I just don't see Shaq scoring at the rate he did because of MJ. And he's probably not winning any MVPs or Finals MVPs. Because if he does (and here's the rub) then that takes away from Jordan's accolades. And as I said previously, them being together would make them dominant, but ones legacy would not be looked at in the same way if they decided to stay together as long as Jordan and Pippen did.[/quote]
That's the thing. It doesn't have to be the 'same' scenario.
This is all hypothetical in case you forgot.
I'm only talking about Shaq in the 90s. If you paired that guy with Jordan, say, as early as '90... Not seeing how they DONT have a run more dominant than Pippen/Jordan. Individually they would be even better than Kobe/Shaq... and without the feuding.
Under your example, Shaq is drafted in 87 and probably a different player with an altered mindset. He wouldn't have the same affinity for Mike. Apples and oranges.
[quote]Why do you keep bringing this up? Jordan wasn't even on the team lol. Pippen has never said he was mad because Jordan always got the last shot. He understood because it's Jordan. But he felt he earned the right (which he did) to have the opportunity to be the hero and win the game. Jordan did something very similar when he stole the ball from Kukoc when it was clear that Jackson drew up the play for Toni in game 5 of the 98 Finals.
Again, I'm basing my assessment on what actually happened and what's reasonable.[/QUOTE]
I don't get why you're confused.
Pretty sure we're talking about egos here. Jordan being on the team is not relevant.
Again, how is Pippen refusing to play based on anything other than ego? Whatever Pippen felt he [I]could have[/I] done doesn't matter because in that moment, he put himself over the team. You know it. I know it. Everyone seeing it play out knows it.
Good posts by Micku.
Jordan was allegedly a 'bad' teammate, but his sidekick was fueled by jealousy and plotted against him the entire time.
This makes Jordan's titles (and leadership) even more impressive. :oldlol:
[QUOTE=dankok8;14478172]I agree with Micku that Pippen's way of doing things is going to backfire with people. The public is more likely to come away from this thinking "Geez Jordan led that headcase to so many rings..." rather than "Pippen was as important as Jordan." Neither of course is a true statement but people are more likely to come away thinking the first. This book sours people's views on Pippen IMO.[/QUOTE]
Because it exposes the real Jordan. But I have a question, how are you quantifying who was more important? Mind not better, but more important to the Bulls success.
[QUOTE=97 bulls;14478223]
it exposes the real Jordan.
[/QUOTE]
It lies
It says that Jordan ruined basketball by only scoring, despite Jordan averaging more assists than Pippen in the regular season, playoffs and Finals
It says that Jordan wasn't a defender and didn't guard the opposing team's best player, despite Jordan getting more DPOY votes every year and being the primary defender on Magic, Drexler, Miller, Payton and Isiah.
So Pippen has proven to be a liar, in addition to the sniveling, immature player that Jordan had to "raise" and amazingly carried to 6 chips.. there's never been a bigger statistical OR mental gap between a 1st and 2nd option.
[QUOTE=97 bulls;14478147]Lol. Bro. He said our as in team. He mentions Bobby Hanson by name and said he starts off hitting a big three. He also brings up the other players that were on the court with him He never mentioned that he also scored 12pts in the 4th and hit the go ahead basket in the clutch. And I believe he even mentioned that Jordan came back in and finished the job. But how is that whiney? And how can that possibly be selfish? Even more, why did MJ leave that out?
Yeah I thought that was crazy. Or was it that he didn't make the Allstar team in 91? I'd have to go back and read it again.
There are some things rather interesting. Like how he grew up and he develop the person that he was/is today. And how he treated the team like family in his own right and that everyone has a specific role and such. But there are some things that I think might not fly.
Lol. Bro. That's not how basketball as a team game works. The Bulls didn't really run an offense. It was Jordan trying to get his shot off and guys watching. No spacing, no movement, no direction, guys trying to get out of Jordan's way, and while they may be "open", they're not in their comfort zone. That's pickup ball.
Although he did mention his scoring seasons in the 80s and just being in awe of how he scored with the fastbreak and iso plays. He talked about him calling Phil was a racist was a coping mechanism.
This is Pippen's story. Not Jordan's. That's how it was framed in rebuttal to Jordan's teammates voicing their displeasure. See the double standard?
It didn't backfire, I'm starting to see people see his pov. What did he lie about? He was as important to Jordan with regards to the Bulls winning those 6 titles. Jordan was the best, but he was equally as important. The problem is these media guys that are voicing their displeasure with Pippen aren't willing to debate the subject.[/QUOTE]
The reason why it's whiny, imo, is because it comes across to say "What about me? What about my steal? What about the things that I did? Why do MJ get all the spot? Yeah, he averaged crazy numbers and hit game winners, but it wouldn't happened without my defense and contribution!" But I do think there are things that should've been in the doc. I don't know if the comeback should've been in the doc. Maybe. But that quote, "The mailman don't deliver on Sundays" should've. Definitely. Rodman defense on Shaq should've too. Luc Longley had some good games. Kukoc should've gotten more spotlight. But it is what it is.
And I don't know what type of offense was running when MJ was averaging those insane numbers under Doug Collins. But it did remind me a bit of Bron/James Harden ball. Just MJ didn't hold the ball as much as those guys and he wasn't as good as a play maker but he wasn't bad. However, the spacing was terrible back then, so it wouldn't be as effective anyway. Regardless, he did pass. There were definitely times where he missed the open dude to take the shot, but it wasn't as bad as Kobe back in the day. But those teams just couldn't buy a basket and the Pistons were sent the team at MJ. At the time, ppl criticize MJ for scoring too much or too little. But from what I saw, there were so many bricks. MJ definitely got better at playing under the team concept in the 90s for sure. He let the game come to him much better than back then in the 80s. Less is better in that instance. But it was insane how many open looks team had that they just missed. If he had better shooters around him, then I would imagine that style would be better just like Harden and LeBron. But they didn't use the 3pt shot a lot back then. So, the long range 2. Pippen especially wasn't good at that shot either till later. But it wasn't just him. It was pretty much the whole team stunk. Especially in 89 when they shouldn't even got there in the first place. It is amazing how much they improved at both ends.
And as you said, they probably weren't at their comfort zone. It wasn't their game, at least to compete with the Pistons. They improved tho of what they could do for sure by the 90s. But that's a whole essay to write about that on it's own. But Phil Jackson and Tex Winter put in the triangle, and they played much better with the team. Simultaneously, the team improved overall in what they could do.
And I get it's a Pippen story. But this Pippen story is talks about MJ a whole lot. And as you said, voicing his and teammates displeasure over the Last Dance and how he was treated and view. He wanted to be acknowledge of his accomplishments too. But I do think it'll backfire. I'm checking some youtube vids out who read the book, they think Pippen is bitter. They media does, for the most part. And I dunno if you checked out the subreddit of the Bulls? They just think it's embarrassing. And the calls that some of these podcasts and radio shows get when they talk about Pippen? Most of them think Pippen is trippin. But you really don't think it'll backfire? Cuz I see it personally that it's backfiring with a bunch of fans.
But you do have ppl who are sympathetic of Pippen and his book may enhance that. But for the most part, at least from what I seen, I don't think so. I think it's a shame cuz he tackled on some good points. And the teamball of the Bulls were amazing. Yeah ppl paid attention to MJ majority, but they were an amazing team. I don't think the book will do that any favors with the public due to Pippen interviews and some of the comments.
[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy;14478191]That's the thing. It doesn't have to be the 'same' scenario.
This is all hypothetical in case you forgot.
I'm only talking about Shaq in the 90s. If you paired that guy with Jordan, say, as early as '90... Not seeing how they DONT have a run more dominant than Pippen/Jordan. Individually they would be even better than Kobe/Shaq... and without the feuding.[/QUOTE]
Shaq and Kobe didn't have a run as dominant as Jordan and Pippen. Not sure how much more dominant a Shaq/Jordan 1-2 punch would be. Based on how much better you think Jordan is over Bryant. But that neither here nor there. Again, this is a hyothetical, but it's based on what we know from the players in question. Is Jordan gonna be OK with Shaq making rap songs, and movies instead of working on trying to win? Again, it's no secret that Shaq had an issue with the pub Penny Hardaway was getting. But he's gonna be cool with Jordans godlike publicity? And he didn't want the Lakers offense to run though Kobe to the point that he threatened to stop playing defense if he didn't get the ball. I mean you're ignoring all of these facets that were plainly there in you euphoric scenario.
[QUOTE]Under your example, Shaq is drafted in 87 and probably a different player with an altered mindset. He wouldn't have the same affinity for Mike. Apples and oranges.
[/QUOTE]Because that was the scenario between Jordan and Pippen. You changed it and basically used hindsight. IE Jordan led his team to 6 championships, Shaq to 3 the MVPs accolades etc. It can't play out that way if they play together. Somebody is gonna have to take a backseat.
[QUOTE]I don't get why you're confused.
Pretty sure we're talking about egos here. Jordan being on the team is not relevant.
Again, how is Pippen refusing to play based on anything other than ego? Whatever Pippen felt he [I]could have[/I] done doesn't matter because in that moment, he put himself over the team. You know it. I know it. Everyone seeing it play out knows it.[/QUOTE]
Pippen played in the shadow of Jordan basically his whole career. Which meant he had to check his ego, at the door every night. You gonna use one moment to show he had an ego? Lol. That's insane bro.
[QUOTE=3ba11;14478227]It lies
It says that Jordan ruined basketball by only scoring, despite Jordan averaging more assists than Pippen in the regular season, playoffs and Finals
It says that Jordan wasn't a defender and didn't guard the opposing team's best player, despite Jordan getting more DPOY votes every year and being the primary defender on Magic, Drexler, Miller, Payton and Isiah.
So Pippen has proven to be a liar, in addition to the sniveling, immature player that Jordan had to "raise" and amazingly carried to 6 chips.. there's never been a bigger statistical OR mental gap between a 1st and 2nd option.[/QUOTE]
Hahahah, oh yeah. He did say that. About the defensive part. That's crazy. Did he say he didn't want to guard the best player? I think that's something perhaps. But regardless, he did guard the best player of the opposing team. A lot of the time. Especially in the first peat. We got the tape and we got the stats. We even had teams that said, "Don't pass it in the area that MJ is guarding" because he was that good with his timing and help defense. Other coaches and players commented on MJ's defense. Like Pippen got the credit for guarding Magic effectively as deserved, but MJ guarded him the majority of the time in the finals and did pretty well aside from game 1. I think Pippen got fouled out in game 3 and it went back to MJ. MJ guarded him a majority of the time period whenever they played.
We have so many vids to show that MJ did guard the best player and to show he was effective in doing so. But not to say MJ didn't get cook, every players does, but he really good in that aspect. His peers talk about how good he was in defense, the coaches, even his teammates at the time and we as fans could also see it. lol! And we have the stats. What Pippen said was a big claim that I don't think will fly.
[QUOTE=Micku;14478233]The reason why it's whiny, imo, is because it comes across to say "What about me? What about my steal? What about the things that I did? Why do MJ get all the spot? Yeah, he averaged crazy numbers and hit game winners, but it wouldn't happened without my defense and contribution!" But I do think there are things that should've been in the doc. I don't know if the comeback should've been in the doc. Maybe. But that quote, "The mailman don't deliver on Sundays" should've. Definitely. Rodman defense on Shaq should've too. Luc Longley had some good games. Kukoc should've gotten more spotlight. But it is what it is.
And I don't know what type of offense was running when MJ was averaging those insane numbers under Doug Collins. But it did remind me a bit of Bron/James Harden ball. Just MJ didn't hold the ball as much as those guys and he wasn't as good as a play maker but he wasn't bad. However, the spacing was terrible back then, so it wouldn't be as effective anyway. Regardless, he did pass. There were definitely times where he missed the open dude to take the shot, but it wasn't as bad as Kobe back in the day. But those teams just couldn't buy a basket and the Pistons were sent the team at MJ. At the time, ppl criticize MJ for scoring too much or too little. But from what I saw, there were so many bricks. MJ definitely got better at playing under the team concept in the 90s for sure. He let the game come to him much better than back then in the 80s. Less is better in that instance. But it was insane how many open looks team had that they just missed. If he had better shooters around him, then I would imagine that style would be better just like Harden and LeBron. But they didn't use the 3pt shot a lot back then. So, the long range 2. Pippen especially wasn't good at that shot either till later. But it wasn't just him. It was pretty much the whole team stunk. Especially in 89 when they shouldn't even got there in the first place. It is amazing how much they improved at both ends.
And as you said, they probably weren't at their comfort zone. It wasn't their game, at least to compete with the Pistons. They improved tho of what they could do for sure by the 90s. But that's a whole essay to write about that on it's own. But Phil Jackson and Tex Winter put in the triangle, and they played much better with the team. Simultaneously, the team improved overall in what they could do.
And I get it's a Pippen story. But this Pippen story is talks about MJ a whole lot. And as you said, voicing his and teammates displeasure over the Last Dance and how he was treated and view. He wanted to be acknowledge of his accomplishments too. But I do think it'll backfire. I'm checking some youtube vids out who read the book, they think Pippen is bitter. They media does, for the most part. And I dunno if you checked out the subreddit of the Bulls? They just think it's embarrassing. And the calls that some of these podcasts and radio shows get when they talk about Pippen? Most of them think Pippen is trippin. But you really don't think it'll backfire? Cuz I see it personally that it's backfiring with a bunch of fans.
But you do have ppl who are sympathetic of Pippen and his book may enhance that. But for the most part, at least from what I seen, I don't think so. I think it's a shame cuz he tackled on some good points. And the teamball of the Bulls were amazing. Yeah ppl paid attention to MJ majority, but they were an amazing team. I don't think the book will do that any favors with the public due to Pippen interviews and some of the comments.[/QUOTE]
So it's whiney because his teammate is taking all the credit for the work the team did? That's not whiney.I was actually appalled that Jordan opted to leave out key moments in the Bulls title runs. Why arent you?
[QUOTE=Micku;14478233]
[B]"The mailman don't deliver on Sundays" should've been in the doc.[/B]
[/quote]
So should the documentary have included Derrick McKey whispering to Pippen when Pippen missed 2 free throws in the 98' ECF that nearly lost that series??.. They were right before Miller's historic winner over MJ:
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1lCjwWJ1Ds&t=7121s[/url]
[QUOTE=Micku;14478233]
[B]Rodman defense on Shaq should've too. Luc Longley had some good games. Kukoc should've gotten more spotlight.[/B]
[/quote]
Rodman did spot-duty on Shaq, who still averaged almost 30 with good efficiency... No player has ever been cited in a documentary for playing spot-duty on a guy that still dominated....
EXCEPT PIPPEN ON MAGIC!!!!... Pippen has been lionized for his spot-duty, so the idea that Pippen doesn't get enough credit is preposterous - he gets far more credit than he ever deserved - the stats & facts show that.
Ultimately, the guys that dominated or hit big shots were appropriately lionized in the doc - Jordan, Paxson, Kerr, Kukoc
[QUOTE=Micku;14478233]
[B]But the 80's Bulls couldn't buy a basket so the Pistons sent the team at MJ.. [/B].
But from what I saw, there were so many bricks.
[/quote]
^^^ exactly, so Jordan was forced to take a lot of shots, yet he still shot far above the league average true shooting every year of his career, including 1987 when he averaged 37 ppg
In addition to good efficiency despite the goat volume, the goat aspect of Jordan's scoring is that it was partially off-ball and therefore assisted, which elevated teammate role and allowed the best strategy (ball movement) - so Jordan could win with high scoring and has many series-wins with high scoring.. This contrasts with ball-dominators (unassisted scoring), which reduces teamamtes to spot-up shooter and uses inferior strategy (ball-domination) - so ball-dominators can't win with high scoring against the top teams and need elite-scoring teammates to match or exceed their scoring when needed.
[QUOTE=Micku;14478233]
MJ definitely got better at playing under the team concept in the 90s for sure. He let the game come to him much better than back then in the 80s. Less is better in that instance.
[/quote]
Jordan appeared like less of a chucker as his teammates started to improve at basketball - there's a direct correlation with them becoming veterans that knew how to play and Jordan not needing to chuck as much.
But he never "toned it down" to win because he won every title as scoring champ and averaged 36 ppg in the 91-93' Finals and 34/7/7 in the 91-93' Playoffs - so his burden (scoring and usage) increased for him to win.
[QUOTE=Micku;14478233]
Especially in 89 when they shouldn't even got there in the first place.
[/QUOTE]
If Jordan doesn't carry his low seed over the #1 SRS team with "the shot" and propel the Bulls to the 89' ECF, the Bulls would've been in rebuild mode instead of ECF veterans and a year away from starting a 3-peat - his carry-job in those playoffs was the difference between remaining a bad franchise and becoming a dynasty.. he FORCED his lottery cast to contend with those Bad Boys and not get swept or beaten by record amount.
[QUOTE=Micku;14478233]
And I dunno if you checked out the subreddit of the Bulls?
[/quote]
Pippen cannot show his face in Chicago ever again.. Everyone knows how much of a fraud he is and how it makes MJ the goat even more to carry such a bum.
[QUOTE=Micku;14478233]
[B]MJ wasn't as good as a play maker as Harden or Lebron but he wasn't bad. [/B]
[/quote]
Lebron and Harden bring the ball up the court, so they look like superior playmakers to Jordan, who was an off-guard - but the media said MJ was better than Magic and Stockton after only 10 games at point guard in 1989 - [I]Jordan's 30/10/10 point guard style was similar to Luka, Harden, Westbrook, or Lebron, and therefore 30 years ahead of it's time.[/I]
So anytime the Bulls needed more than 7 apg, Jordan was the only option - Jordan had numerous series with 8-11 APG.. He's actually the only player that ever averaged 10 apg without bringing the ball up and playing point guard (1991 Finals).
So no - Lebron and Harden aren't better playmakers than Jordan - they simply play the ball-dominator role more often and Jordan was on their level anytime he played that role - but he preferred the off-guard role, which was fortunate because it allowed better teammate fits and the best strategy (ball movement), which allowed the best teams (6/6).
[QUOTE=97 bulls;14478234]Shaq and Kobe didn't have a run as dominant as Jordan and Pippen. Not sure how much more dominant a Shaq/Jordan 1-2 punch would be. Based on how much better you think Jordan is over Bryant. But that neither here nor there. Again, this is a hyothetical, but it's based on what we know from the players in question. Is Jordan gonna be OK with Shaq making rap songs, and movies instead of working on trying to win? Again, it's no secret that Shaq had an issue with the pub Penny Hardaway was getting. But he's gonna be cool with Jordans godlike publicity? And he didn't want the Lakers offense to run though Kobe to the point that he threatened to stop playing defense if he didn't get the ball. I mean you're ignoring all of these facets that were plainly there in you euphoric scenario.[/quote]
Didn't say they did, but individually Kobe/Shaq were better.
Kobe and Shaq had superior numbers together, and completed a postseason run more dominant than any of Chicago's.
Jordan would help motivate Shaq because of the respect he already had for Mike. If Rodman could listen to MJ, who was actually older than him, I don't think it would be that big of an issue. At least not to the degree of Kobe/Shaq.
Like I mentioned earlier, Mike was also more vocal than Kobe and clearly a better leader of men. For as many shots Jordan hoisted, he was also the better playmaker than Kobe and had a better understanding of the 'team' concept.
Nobody knows for sure either way, but understanding how Shaq and Jordan functioned, especially during their title reign.... I don't see a scenario where they aren't a dynasty.
With Mike, Shaq wins right away and wouldn't have an incentive to leave. Shaq could still be Hollywood like Dennis Rodman tried to be, but the difference is Shaq was tiers apart as a player, and less of a headcase. Shaq reigned it in when needed, which he would likely do with Mike.
[quote]Because that was the scenario between Jordan and Pippen. You changed it and basically used hindsight. IE Jordan led his team to 6 championships, Shaq to 3 the MVPs accolades etc. It can't play out that way if they play together. Somebody is gonna have to take a backseat. [/quote]
You misread.
I've been talking about 90s Shaq, which is why I brought up his adulation and respect for Mike.
Only reason you moved it to the 80s was to fit your narrative. I mean, most of this debate is hypothetical speculative BS. Obviously. But at least my scenario doesn't wipe Shaq's game or his memory. :lol
[quote]Pippen played in the shadow of Jordan basically his whole career. Which meant he had to check his ego, at the door every night. You gonna use one moment to show he had an ego? Lol. That's insane bro.[/QUOTE]
Don't be naive. There have been countless instances Pippen's flexed his ego. You can admit in this case, Pippen was selfish...right?
Pippen also had no choice but to play under Mike's shadow. He was an inferior player. :oldlol:
[QUOTE=97 bulls;14478267]So it's whiney because his teammate is taking all the credit for the work the team did? That's not whiney.I was actually appalled that Jordan opted to leave out key moments in the Bulls title runs. Why arent you?[/QUOTE]
I didn't say that. I'm saying he comes across as whiney for talking about himself compared to MJ. Cuz he mentioned that they credit steals to MJ instead of Pippen. That MJ ruined the game of basketball. That the Last Dance documentary didn't show his defensive top which lead to a MJ game winner or a MJ pass to a game winner, and say it wasn't special. And calling Phil a racist for not letting him take the last shot. Although he said it was coping mechanism. While he has some good points, it doesn't come across well and it seems whiny when it compares himself to MJ.
If he talked about the team, that's one thing. But he talked about himself as relation to a MJ. It was more, "I did this! I made that steal! I passed it to that guy! Where's my highlight" type of approach.
And I'm not the only one. As I said, the subreddit of the Bulls think it's embarrassing. A bunch of media heads think so, podcast ppl, youtube ppl, ppl on the forums. Even Nick Wright who is a Pippen sympathizer think Pippen needs a spokesman to help him address some points. But don't take my word for it, look the reviews from goodreads. A bunch of them say the exact same thing.
[quote]
Wesley Policky
Its his version of the story. [B]Some comes off as whiny and jealous - other parts seem genuine and grateful. [/B]I could not put it down, so the story is good. I just sit in the camp of Jordan is the greatest I've watched and Scottie was awesome as well, just not Jordan and that should be good enough. Sometimes it feels as though for Pippen, it was not.
[/quote]
[quote]
Corban Ford
Man, this was tough. I respect Scottie Pippen's career and I feel that he definitely deserves more credit than he has received in "The Last Dance" and other Chicago Bulls-centric retrospectives but man....[B] resentment and bitterness permeate this entire book. Pippen spends most of it talking about how important HE was to the team and success, except for when it comes to acknowledging his shortfalls or giving more than just the passing credit to MJ. [/B]
[/quote]
[quote]
Andre
[B]A bit whiny at times, mostly in regards to Michael Jordan and it comes off as petty even though some of his points about Michael Jordan are indeed legitimate.[/B] Scottie is one of twelve children and so family has always been a part of his development and outlook on life.
The basketball parts of the book are the strength of this memoir. [/quote]
But you also have ppl who do like it.
[quote]
Georgette
I really enjoyed Scottie's book. [B]A lot of people are dogging him for being upfront and not mincing words. He does manage to be complimentary and yet also tells it like it is.[/B] A good memoir.
[/quote]
[url]https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/56898224-unguarded#other_reviews[/url]
But there are a lot of reviews that are like this. This is a small sample size to reflect the masses, but you can check out what other ppl are saying about it on other sites as well. Ppl say Pippen comes across as whiny even though he do talk about some good points. So they do get enjoyment out of it even though they may agree with everything. As for what The Last Dance, sure there could've been more stuff. I personally like the stuff where they go into detail and the tactics of the game personally in a b-ball doc, but it wasn't that. They pretty much talked about everything that I already know about, except for a couple of things. But I was a bit bummed, but not appalled. One of things that I wish they were talk about is that when the Bulls lost, MJ got pissed off. He was saying how the team didn't show up that night, didn't do anything for him, and that he should never come back and such.
But regardless, I think you see a backlash with this book. I don't think he'll ever be remembered as important as MJ. It isn't backed up by the stats for the statheads for sure, majority of the fans or the media who saw'em don't say that, and he isn't backed up by the current gen of stars. But maybe for his teammates of the Bulls. And this book and the interviews won't help his case for the masses I think.
How many guys did Jordan ‘get on’? That Bulls locker room had to have been a sticky mess in the 90s. No wonder pippin is mad.
[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy;14478196]Good posts by Micku.
Jordan was allegedly a 'bad' teammate, but his sidekick was fueled by jealousy and plotted against him the entire time.
This makes Jordan's titles (and leadership) even more impressive. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]:lol
[QUOTE=97 bulls;14478267]So it's whiney because his teammate is taking all the credit for the work the team did? That's not whiney.I was actually appalled that Jordan opted to leave out key moments in the Bulls title runs. Why arent you?[/QUOTE]
you are such a ****ing loser like you really are :lol