Wizards jordon was worse than nearly any all-time great who played until his late 30s

This isn't exactly an apples to apples comparison. LeBron was 37 this season. MJ was 38 turning 39 in 2001-02, and he was three years removed from the league.

Hamilton was a worse defender than Westbrook in 2001-02. And LeBron had AD, Westbrook, Melo, Monk, and Howard, a better core than anything MJ had in 2001-02. MJ's cast was horrid. Somehow they were 14th in DRTG before his injury, (106 overall for the season with MJ), 21st in the regular season. The Lakers had a 114 DRTG with LeBron (they were 21st this season at 113 DRTG overall).

Not to mention, Jordan had his team at a 26-20 record, many of those games without Rip, prior to his injury. They were in playoff contention. Also the 2001-02 season was the height of the defensive era. Teams averaged just 95.5 PPG compared to what, 110.6 now?

Jordan put up 25/6/5/2 but fell off a cliff after the injury. If he's not retiring and continued to go and you give him any mix of AD, Westbrook, Melo, Monk, and Howard, then I think he'd probably have as good, if not a better record than LeBron, even at an older age.

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14646572]This isn't exactly an apples to apples comparison. LeBron was 37 this season. MJ was 38 turning 39 in 2001-02, and he was three years removed from the league.

Hamilton was a worse defender than Westbrook in 2001-02. And LeBron had AD, Westbrook, Melo, Monk, and Howard, a better core than anything MJ had in 2001-02. MJ's cast was horrid. Somehow they were 14th in DRTG before his injury, (106 overall for the season with MJ), 21st in the regular season. The Lakers had a 114 DRTG with LeBron (they were 21st this season at 113 DRTG overall).

Not to mention, Jordan had his team at a 26-20 record, many of those games without Rip, prior to his injury. They were in playoff contention. Also the 2001-02 season was the height of the defensive era. Teams averaged just 95.5 PPG compared to what, 110.6 now?

Jordan put up 25/6/5/2 but fell off a cliff after the injury. If he's not retiring and continued to go and you give him any mix of AD, Westbrook, Melo, Monk, and Howard, then I think he'd probably have as good, if not a better record than LeBron, even at an older age.[/QUOTE]
Ok, so 09 LeBron was much better than any version of MJ in the 80s, yes? Lol at mentioning Westbrook as if he wasn't godawful. Howard? Melo? :roll: Might as well claim MJ had George Gervin at one point by this ridiculous logic.

2022 Melo had already won a scoring title, 2022 Westbrook already had won a league mvp and is the all time leader in triple doubles. Also Dwight Howard who beat Lebron without HCA is a 3x DPOY. That's not including Anthony Davis who led in every stat in 2020.

[url]https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2022_preseason_odds.html[/url] (Lakers 2nd)

[QUOTE=RRR3;14646573]Ok, so 09 LeBron was much better than any version of MJ in the 80s, yes? Lol at mentioning Westbrook as if he wasn't godawful. Howard? Melo? :roll:[/QUOTE]

Any? No, I don't think so.

Westbrook w/Lebron: 17/7/7/1 on 43%
Westbrook w/o LeBron: 22/8/8/1 on 47%

You're saying Westbrook and Melo are awful, but did you take a look at the cast of Washington that year? Take your pick:

AD, Westbrook, Monk, Melo, Howard

or

White, Whitney, Hamilton, Jones, Laettner

It's not even close.

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14646577][B]Any? No, I don't think so.
[/B]
Westbrook w/Lebron: 17/7/7/1 on 43%
Westbrook w/o LeBron: 22/8/8/1 on 47%

You're saying Westbrook and Melo are awful, but did you take a look at the cast of Washington that year? Take your pick:

AD, Westbrook, Monk, Melo, Howard

or

White, Whitney, Hamilton, Jones, Laettner

It's not even close.[/QUOTE]
So you're being inconsistent. LeBron won 66 games with role players in 2009. MJ's most wins in the 80s before Pippen became an all-star was 50. By your own logic LeBron was clearly better. Or else you'd have to admit there's more to that goes into team record than simply the best player and their supporting cast on paper. Which would mean you'd also have to admit 22 LeBron was better than Wizards MJ. Can't have it both ways.


Why are you listing Westbrook's raw stats as if they mean anything? His efficiency and impact stats were atrocious. Again why are you listing Melo and Howard? This is like saying MJ had George Gervin and Robert Parish.

Naming Westbrook, Melo, & Howard isn't going to impress anyone given they were past their prime. Good riddance.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14646569]No, by your logic LeBron was clearly superior. :lol

And next time adjust for league average TS% if you want to compare that stat across eras without looking clueless.

You're welcome[/QUOTE]

Nope, you're just incapable of understanding the argument. I've already stated Lebron was better individually in 2022 than MJ was in 2002. Yet even with that being the case, MJ somehow went 30-30 compared to Lebron going 26-31 with an even worse supporting cast. Every excuse you can give Lebron, I can give for Jordan. Lebron wasn't as conducive to his teams winning games. Pretty hilarious actually. :roll:

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14646581]Naming Westbrook, Melo, & Howard isn't going to impress anyone given they were past their prime. Good riddance.[/QUOTE]

2022 Melo had already won a scoring title, 2022 Westbrook already had won a league mvp and is the all time leader in triple doubles. Also Dwight Howard who beat Lebron without HCA is a 3x DPOY. That's not including Anthony Davis who led in every stat in 2020.

[url]https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2022_preseason_odds.html[/url] (Lakers 2nd)

[QUOTE=RRR3;14646580]So you're being inconsistent. [B]LeBron won 66 games with role players in 2009.[/B] MJ's most wins in the 80s before Pippen became an all-star was 50. By your own logic LeBron was clearly better. Or else you'd have to admit there's more to that goes into team record than simply the best player and their supporting cast on paper. Which would mean you'd also have to admit 22 LeBron was better than Wizards MJ. Can't have it both ways.


Why are you listing Westbrook's raw stats as if they mean anything? His efficiency and impact stats were atrocious. Again why are you listing Melo and Howard? This is like saying MJ had George Gervin and Robert Parish.[/QUOTE]

All-stars are role players? :roll:

[QUOTE=theman93;14646582]Nope, you're just incapable of understanding the argument. I've already stated Lebron was better individually in 2022 than MJ was in 2002. Yet even with that being the case, MJ somehow went 30-30 compared to Lebron going 26-31 with an even worse supporting cast. Every excuse you can give Lebron, I can give for Jordan. Lebron wasn't as conducive to his teams winning games. Pretty hilarious actually. :roll:[/QUOTE]
MJ wasn't as conducive to his team winning games as 09 and 10 LeBron until Pippen became a superstar. :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=RRR3;14646580]So you're being inconsistent. LeBron won 66 games with role players in 2009. MJ's most wins in the 80s before Pippen became an all-star was 50. By your own logic LeBron was clearly better. Or else you'd have to admit there's more to that goes into team record than simply the best player and their supporting cast on paper. Which would mean you'd also have to admit 22 LeBron was better than Wizards MJ. Can't have it both ways.


Why are you listing Westbrook's raw stats as if they mean anything? His efficiency and impact stats were atrocious. Again why are you listing Melo and Howard? This is like saying MJ had George Gervin and Robert Parish.[/QUOTE]

Fair point as the difference in conference matters. So you're right about that.

Westbrook's TS% was 55% without LeBron. So not sure why you're mentioning efficiency. I'm bringing up Melo and Howard because those guys were better than anything MJ had. Again, take your pick.

The point still stands.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14646581]Naming Westbrook, Melo, & Howard isn't going to impress anyone given they were past their prime. Good riddance.[/QUOTE]

What about Chris Whitney, Jahidi White, and Popeye Jones? Is that an impressive group? :roll:

[QUOTE=theman93;14646582]Nope, you're just incapable of understanding the argument.[B] I've already stated Lebron was better individually in 2022 than MJ was in 2002.[/B] Yet even with that being the case, MJ somehow went 30-30 compared to Lebron going 26-31 with an even worse supporting cast. Every excuse you can give Lebron, I can give for Jordan. Lebron wasn't as conducive to his teams winning games. Pretty hilarious actually. :roll:[/QUOTE]

All I wanted to hear.

Goodnight.

[QUOTE=theman93;14646584]All-stars are role players? :roll:[/QUOTE]
Mo Williams was an injury replacement and career role player who only made it after LeBron complained about him not making it. Charles Oakley was also an all-star, and I don't see you holding that against MJ.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14646581]Naming Westbrook, Melo, & Howard isn't going to impress anyone given they were past their prime. Good riddance.[/QUOTE]

You're being disingenuous. Compared to Jahidi White, Chris Whitney, and Popeye Jones? C'mon bro.

2022 Melo had already won a scoring title, 2022 Westbrook already had won a league mvp and is the all time leader in triple doubles. Also Dwight Howard who beat Lebron without HCA is a 3x DPOY. That's not including Anthony Davis who led in every stat in 2020.

[url]https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2022_preseason_odds.html[/url] (Lakers 2nd)

[QUOTE=RRR3;14646585]MJ wasn't as conducive to his team winning games as 09 and 10 LeBron until Pippen became a superstar. :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

Pippen wasn't an all-star in 1991. Yet MJ won the championship anyways. :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14646586]Fair point as the difference in conference matters. So you're right about that.

Westbrook's TS% was 55% without LeBron. So not sure why you're mentioning efficiency. [B]I'm bringing up Melo and Howard because those guys were better than anything MJ had.[/B] Again, take your pick.

The point still stands.[/QUOTE]
:facepalm

Jesus Christ.

And small sample size needs to be accounted for. Westbrook's TS% was 50.9% without LeBron for a whole year in 2021, and he was widely considered better that year than he was this year.

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14646592]You're being disingenuous. Compared to Jahidi White, Chris Whitney, and Popeye Jones? C'mon bro.[/QUOTE]
Dwight averaged 6/6 last year :lol He is Bismack Biyombo at this point. Melo is probably the worst defender in the NBA, dude can barely move. He was also horrendously inefficient for years before this but suddenly had decent efficiency again playing with LeBron, but I'm sure that has nothing to do with LeBron somehow. I'm not blaming him for being old it's just the reality.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14646585]MJ wasn't as conducive to his team winning games as 09 and 10 LeBron until Pippen became a superstar. :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

Lebron had Ben Wallace and then Shaq guys who won as the man already and yet Lebron loses with HCA.

[url]https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_preseason_odds.html[/url] (Lakers 1st)

[url]https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2022_preseason_odds.html[/url] (Lakers 2nd)

[QUOTE=RRR3;14646595]:facepalm

Jesus Christ.

And small sample size needs to be accounted for. Westbrook's TS% was 50.9% without LeBron for a whole year in 2021, and he was widely considered better that year than he was this year.[/QUOTE]

I mentioned it because he improved without LeBron. Furthermore, you're stifling your conscience. You know very well LeBron had a much better cast than MJ did in 2002.

Heck, the Lakers were the favorites to win the title going into the season. Give MJ that cast and he posts a better record is my intuition, even as a Laker. You can disagree, so we'll just agree to disagree.

And you still haven't accounted for nearly a two year difference in age and MJ being removed three years from the league. MJ continuing to play plus the Lakers cast probably gets them into the play-in at least. You don't think that's at least reasonable? C'mon.

[QUOTE=theman93;14646594]Pippen wasn't an all-star in 1991. Yet MJ won the championship anyways. :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
He put up 18/7/6 on excellent efficiency and had an elite BPM. And second team all-defense. He then put up 22/9/6 on excellent efficiency in the playoffs while shutting down Magic Johnson. You gonna claim that isn't an all-star level player? :yaohappy:

Kyrie and Love weren't All-Stars in 2016 and LeBron won anyways by this logic.

@RRR3 still waiting for you to answer the question:

How did old broken down 38 year old MJ lead the Wizards to a 30-30 record in the games he played in, while Lebron who is significantly better only lead the Lakers to a 25-31 record in the games he played in? All with a worse or equal supporting cast while also starting less games?

[QUOTE=RRR3;14646597]Dwight averaged 6/6 last year :lol He is Bismack Biyombo at this point. Melo is probably the worst defender in the NBA, dude can barely move. He was also horrendously inefficient for years before this but suddenly had decent efficiency again playing with LeBron, but I'm sure that has nothing to do with LeBron somehow. I'm not blaming him for being old it's just the reality.[/QUOTE]

Still better than anything Jahidi White could do, not to mention Howard's defense. Again, the Lakers' cast was better by a mile.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14646600]He put up 18/7/6 on excellent efficiency and had an elite BPM. And second team all-defense. He then put up 22/9/6 on excellent efficiency in the playoffs while shutting down Magic Johnson. You gonna claim that isn't an all-star level player? :yaohappy:

Kyrie and Love weren't All-Stars in 2016 and LeBron won anyways by this logic.[/QUOTE]

Kyrie missed most of the first half of the 2016 season, which is why he wasn't an all-star. C'mon RRR3, stop it.

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14646599]I mentioned it because he improved without LeBron. Furthermore, you're stifling your conscience. You know very well LeBron had a much better cast than MJ did in 2002.

Heck, the Lakers were the favorites to win the title going into the season. Give MJ that cast and he posts a better record is my intuition, even as a Laker. You can disagree, so we'll just agree to disagree.

And you still haven't accounted for nearly a two year difference in age and MJ being removed three years from the league. MJ continuing to play plus the Lakers cast probably gets them into the play-in at least. You don't think that's at least reasonable? C'mon.[/QUOTE]
The Lakers were the favorite because people are idiots. The LeBron and AD Lakers were the best team in the league in 2020 and 2021 as well when they were healthy. Westbrook comes and they become a joke. And you somehow list him as a positive? That makes zero sense.

I'll agree 02 MJ was better than LeBron if you agree 09 LeBron is better than any version of MJ before Pippen became a star. But you can't be consistent can you?

[QUOTE=theman93;14646601]@RRR3 still waiting for you to answer the question:

How did old broken down 38 year old MJ lead the Wizards to a 30-30 record in the games he played in, while Lebron who is significantly better only lead the Lakers to a 25-31 record in the games he played in? All with a worse or equal supporting cast while also starting less games?[/QUOTE]

Their casts weren't even close. LAL's cast was better by a mile.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14646600]He put up 18/7/6 on excellent efficiency and had an elite BPM. And second team all-defense. He then put up 22/9/6 on excellent efficiency in the playoffs while shutting down Magic Johnson. You gonna claim that isn't an all-star level player? :yaohappy:

Kyrie and Love weren't All-Stars in 2016 and LeBron won anyways by this logic.[/QUOTE]

Your criteria was "superstar". Pippen wasn't even All-NBA until 1992. So your argument is refuted.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14646605]The Lakers were the favorite because people are idiots. The LeBron and AD Lakers were the best team in the league in 2020 and 2021 as well when they were healthy. Westbrook comes and they become a joke. And you somehow list him as a positive? That makes zero sense.

I'll agree 02 MJ was better than LeBron if you agree 09 LeBron is better than any version of MJ before Pippen became a star. But you can't be consistent can you?[/QUOTE]

You don't have to agree that '02 MJ > '22 LeBron. But to act like the Lakers' cast wasn't better is beyond ridiculous.

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14646606]Their casts weren't even close. LAL's cast was better by a mile.[/QUOTE]

You have to understand that I'm lowering the bar so low because apparently it's not fair to hold Lebron to the standard of making the play-in last year. LOL.

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14646602]Still better than anything Jahidi White could do, not to mention Howard's defense. Again, the Lakers' cast was better by a mile.[/QUOTE]
Jahidi averaged 5/6 what a difference :lol He was also a great shot blocker :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=RRR3;14646610]Jahidi averaged 5/6 what a difference :lol He was also a great shot blocker :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

Great, so now White > Howard. That's a joke and you know it. Again, which cast was better?

[QUOTE=theman93;14646607]Your criteria was "superstar". Pippen wasn't even All-NBA until 1992. So your argument is refuted.[/QUOTE]
22/9/6 with excellent efficiency with ATG defense isn't a superstar in what universe exactly?

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14646604]Kyrie missed most of the first half of the 2016 season, which is why he wasn't an all-star. C'mon RRR3, stop it.[/QUOTE]
Are you seriously pretending Pippen wasn't a monster in 1991?

[QUOTE=RRR3;14646613]Are you seriously pretending Pippen wasn't a monster in 1991?[/QUOTE]

I didn't say otherwise. I'm merely contending your claim that it's an equal comparison because Kyrie didn't make the all-star team. You omitted the fact that he missed most of the first half of the season in 2016.

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14646611]Great, so now White > Howard. That's a joke and you know it. Again, which cast was better?[/QUOTE]
I didn't say he was better but he's a pretty similar player to this version of Dwight, yes. Dwight was 36, how many players whose games are based entirely on athleticism are good at that age? The Lakers cast was better when AD played, but he missed 42 games. When he didn't play the casts were pretty equivalent. You also have to consider Vogel lost them many games with foolish decisions.

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14646614]I didn't say otherwise. I'm merely contending your claim that it's an equal comparison because Kyrie didn't make the all-star team. You omitted the fact that he missed most of the first half of the season in 2016.[/QUOTE]
Why does it matter why he missed it? Pippen missing it because the voters and coaches were stupid is supposed to be any better? :lol No one thinks Kyrie is better than Pippen besides 3ball.

[QUOTE=kawhileonard2;14646598]Lebron had Ben Wallace and then Shaq guys who won as the man already and yet Lebron loses with HCA.

[url]https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_preseason_odds.html[/url] (Lakers 1st)

[url]https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2022_preseason_odds.html[/url] (Lakers 2nd)[/QUOTE]

:coleman:

Well Wizards Jordan was a guy that climbed out from behind a desk to try to play again, and he had his moments, and he was actually fun to watch because he was still Jordan, but, you know, he wasn't really taken seriously beyond being a spectacle or a sideshow at that point.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14646617]Why does it matter why he missed it? Pippen missing it because the voters and coaches were stupid is supposed to be any better? :lol No one thinks Kyrie is better than Pippen besides 3ball.[/QUOTE]

Pippen was much better in the second half than he was in the first half, which is why he wasn't on the all-star team. The point is you're bringing up 2016 as if it's the same. It's not.