I still think Jokic is underrated

He's the only player in NBA history to have the actual impact of a triple double.

He gets a natural triple double.

He bangs down low and gets impactful rebounds, on offense that lead to put backs, he clears the paint and boxes everyone out on defense and really dominates the defensive glass.

His passing tremendous. Best pure passer in the league with his 10 assists, and he doesn't ball dominate to get those assists.

Then his 30 PPG is hyper efficient and dominant, drawing doubles and constant attention all over the court.

Westbrook never controlled the glass and neither did Oscar or Kidd. Though Kidd was amazing in other ways defensively.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14971476]You misunderstand. Jokic WAS underrated when I made this thread. Go read through the pages.

This was before Jok won a ring and there were still SO [B]many people hating on him in the media[/B] and fanbase. Many fans and [B]media members DID NOT think Jokic deserved both MVP[/B]s, despite him playing at a GOAT level.

We even saw the consequences of this when Embiid literally won a pity-MVP. That PROVED my entire premise correct.

Giannis won back-to-back MVPS, but no one had him GOAT-level because he simply isn't. Jokic actually DESERVED to be looked at as GOAT-level but people hated on him because he is a foreign player, "unathletic", and he went against all the "celebrity" culture that exists in the NBA.[/QUOTE]

Who are you referring to? Beside Stephen A and Big Perk, Jokic is universally loved.

Pehaps he is the most widely loved superstar by the media. His popularity has shown in his MVP votes.

Who are these haters besides the two I mentioned?

[QUOTE=fourkicks44;14971521]Who are you referring to? Beside Stephen A and Big Perk, Jokic is universally loved.

Pehaps he is the most widely loved superstar by the media. His popularity has shown in his MVP votes.

Who are these haters besides the two I mentioned?[/QUOTE]

Almost everyone in mainstream media when I made this thread in December 2022. Nick Wright was also a MASSIVE Jokic hater. Same with Brian Windhorst.

Im not going to dig up all the stuff I was seeing from 2021-2022, but so many people were skeptical about Jokic in the media (unfairly), and so many people tried to hang the "no rings" argument on Jokic's head.

EVERYTHING changed after Embiid won his pity-MVP in 2023 and when Jokic won his first ring shortly after. Jokic literally made the haters been the knee the same way Lebron has done.

Dude is a top ten player of all time without question. Don't care about rings or team accomplishments. Take out Wilt, Bird, whoever, Jokic is better.

[QUOTE=elementally morale;14796683][B]He doesn't need to get better. All I was saying is that I can imagine him becoming even better.[/B] Nash became better over 30. Not physically but as a player. One can argue that Kobe became better despite being less athletic at aroind the age of 30. Dirk was at his best as a 32-33 year-old. The way Jokic plays he can improve in some areas, one of them being looking to attack the basket more just like he did this last game. We shall see,[/QUOTE]

Crazy enough, he did especially from 3. And since his game is so low impact in terms of movement, he's likely to avoid any major injuries short of a freak one and be like this well through his late 30s if he plays that long.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14971851]Dude is a top ten player of all time without question. Don't care about rings or team accomplishments. Take out Wilt, Bird, whoever, Jokic is better.[/QUOTE]
Maybe if you ignore defense.

He doesn't provide the vertical spacing that Gobert does

[QUOTE=RRR3;14971860]Maybe if you ignore defense.[/QUOTE]


And yet everybody ranks Magic as a top 10 GOAT so that doesn't disqualify anything.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14971860]Maybe if you ignore defense.[/QUOTE]

Jokic is top 5 in steals and deflections this year. He clearly has improved on that end. He wont ever be a rim protector or all-nba caliber defender, but he doesn't need to be. Individual offense has always been more impactful than individual defense. A guy like Steve Nash (all O, no D) is far more impactful than a guy like Ben Wallace (no O, all D).

You also have to factor in how Jokic is one of the best rebounders of all time too. I'm a big Lebron guy, but Jokic at his peak might have surpassed him as the best scorer/passer/rebounder combo player ever. I understand this current era is the most offensive friendly and we don't exactly know how a peak Lebron or a peak Larry Bird would look, but Jokic is without question in consideration for the best ever scorer/passer/rebounder combo player.

I made the post below 2 and a half months ago and Jokic has only gotten better.

MJ (1988-1993): 30.3 PER, 59.3 TS%, .288 WS/48, 11.2 BPM (8.5 OBPM, 2.8 DBPM)

Jokic (2020-November 2025): 31.6, 66.3 TS%, .301 WS/48, 13 BPM (9 OBPM, 4 DBPM)

Since when did RRR3 become a Jokic hater? :lol

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14971890]Since when did RRR3 become a Jokic hater? :lol[/QUOTE]
Meltdown.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14971866]Jokic is top 5 in steals and deflections this year. He clearly has improved on that end. He wont ever be a rim protector or all-nba caliber defender, but he doesn't need to be. Individual offense has always been more impactful than individual defense. A guy like Steve Nash (all O, no D) is far more impactful than a guy like Ben Wallace (no O, all D).

You also have to factor in how Jokic is one of the best rebounders of all time too. I'm a big Lebron guy, but Jokic at his peak might have surpassed him as the best scorer/passer/rebounder combo player ever. I understand this current era is the most offensive friendly and we don't exactly know how a peak Lebron or a peak Larry Bird would look, but Jokic is without question in consideration for the best ever scorer/passer/rebounder combo player.

I made the post below 2 and a half months ago and Jokic has only gotten better.

MJ (1988-1993): 30.3 PER, 59.3 TS%, .288 WS/48, 11.2 BPM (8.5 OBPM, 2.8 DBPM)

Jokic (2020-November 2025): 31.6, 66.3 TS%, .301 WS/48, 13 BPM (9 OBPM, 4 DBPM)[/QUOTE]

His peak has already surpassed other peaks like Bird, Magic, Curry, Kobe & Duncan. You can make an argument for top 5 peak ever. This is how good he is.

MJ
LeBron
Shaq
Hakeem
Kareem

In terms of peak play. I would say Jokic is right with some of those guys.

He hasn't surpassed Curry, simply does not warp the offense in the same way. No one does, and I'm a LeBron guy.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14971893]His peak has already surpassed other peaks like Bird, Magic, Curry, Kobe & Duncan. You can make an argument for top 5 peak ever. This is how good he is.

MJ
LeBron
Shaq
Hakeem
Kareem

In terms of peak play. I would say Jokic is right with some of those guys.[/QUOTE]

Actually based on the data we have, only MJ and Lebron have the impact stats that are potentially better than Jokic's. So an argument can be made that Jokic has a top 3 peak of all time.

Of course the complication comes in when factoring in everyone played in different eras, with different rules, different expectations, different teams, different contracts/free agency, etc. How are we supposed to truly compare Jokic's peak to Duncan/Shaq's peaks when they played in the slowest, most court-clogged era EVER, compared to Jokic who plays in the most wide open era ever with the most player freedom ever? We honestly can't do it.

I'm just willing to put Jokic as a top 5 player ever since the 3-point inception (1980), and Jokic is the clear "GOAT" of this most recent era (2020-now). Give me MJ, Shaq, Duncan, Lebron, Jokic as top 5.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14971894]He hasn't surpassed Curry, simply does not warp the offense in the same way. No one does, and I'm a LeBron guy.[/QUOTE]

Curry's play in the postseason for me is what turns me off. The fact that he is mostly a shooter (granted not only a shooter), he is bound to go cold at times, you saw it time and time again in the playoffs. While Jokic's play translates very well into the postseason. Jokic is also a superior playmaker, one of the best rebounders in the league, & a more impactful defender. The fact that he was able to revive Westbrook's career alone should tell you how good he is, nobody saw that coming.

[video=youtube;fai_cwpo4dA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fai_cwpo4dA[/video]

[QUOTE=RRR3;14971892]Meltdown.[/QUOTE]

Btw, I told you Trump would release those JFK files.

[IMG]https://media.tenor.com/1hlTNcVLVS4AAAAM/jordan-shrug.gif[/IMG]

Bringing up politics in the NBA section to deflect, DESPERATE. Yikes. Fatkic plays no defense.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14971904]Bringing up politics in the NBA section to deflect, DESPERATE. Yikes. Fatkic plays no defense.[/QUOTE]

:oldlol: Lighten up

On a serious note, I just can't take his GOAT case seriously as a center who plays bad defense. Watch him play, he is ****ing lazy and slow on defense. He may be the best offensive player ever apart from Curry, and he's definitely the best offensive center ever, but as a big you really need to play defense to be in the GOAT discussion.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14971908]On a serious note, I just can't take his GOAT case seriously as a center who plays bad defense. Watch him play, he is ****ing lazy and slow on defense. He may be the best offensive player ever apart from Curry, and he's definitely the best offensive center ever, but as a big you really need to play defense to be in the GOAT discussion.[/QUOTE]

I don't think anyone here is calling him the GOAT though. I said arguable top 5 peak, poster after said top 3 peak. Unless someone stated earlier that he was GOAT, haven't really skimmed through this thread.

I think we have to bear in mind the stat explosion, most of the best PER, VORP, BPM seasons are coming in the last few years. Efficiency has skyrocketed because of the lack of defense allowed by Silver, in comparison a guy like LeBron played a huge amount of his prime in a pretty defensively oriented era in comparison. Looking at the insane rate Giannis scores in this era, I can only imagine how much young LeBron would score, because Giannis is in many ways a worse version of peak LeBron (albeit bigger and less perimeter oriented). Genuinely think 09 LeBron is doing something like 34/10/10 on 66 TS% with DPOY defense today.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14971910]I think we have to bear in mind the stat explosion, most of the best PER, VORP, BPM seasons are coming in the last few years. Efficiency has skyrocketed because of the lack of defense allowed by Silver, in comparison a guy like LeBron played a huge amount of his prime in a pretty defensively oriented era in comparison. Looking at the insane rate Giannis scores in this era, I can only imagine how much young LeBron would score, because Giannis is in many ways a worse version of peak LeBron (albeit bigger and less perimeter oriented). Genuinely think 09 LeBron is doing something like 34/10/10 on 66 TS% with DPOY defense today.[/QUOTE]

So now the era argument sticks. Gotchya.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14971910]I think we have to bear in mind the stat explosion, most of the best PER, VORP, BPM seasons are coming in the last few years. Efficiency has skyrocketed because of the lack of defense allowed by Silver, in comparison a guy like LeBron played a huge amount of his prime in a pretty defensively oriented era in comparison. Looking at the insane rate Giannis scores in this era, I can only imagine how much young LeBron would score, because Giannis is in many ways a worse version of peak LeBron (albeit bigger and less perimeter oriented). Genuinely think 09 LeBron is doing something like 34/10/10 on 66 TS% with DPOY defense today.[/QUOTE]
Wouldn’t 09 Lebron’s defense be worse today? By your own admission “Silver no longer allows people to play defense”, so how is 09 Lebron supposed to magically get better on that end?

Can anybody crash a party like RRR3? :lol This guy can bring the vibe down ANYWHERE.

[QUOTE=j3lademaster;14971913]Wouldn’t 09 Lebron’s defense be worse today? By your own admission “Silver no longer allows people to play defense”, so how is 09 Lebron supposed to magically get better on that end?[/QUOTE]
He'd be allowed to get away with less, but relative to league his impact on that end would still be great. Defenses are better than ever today, don't get me wrong, they have to be! But they are very hamstrung by the rules. You still see plenty of great defense but man the space you have to give offensive players is annoying.

[QUOTE=tpols;14971864]And yet everybody ranks Magic as a top 10 GOAT so that doesn't disqualify anything.[/QUOTE]

Easy slay was easy

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14971912]So now the era argument sticks. Gotchya.[/QUOTE]

Other posters have acknowledged the era difference too. In fact when I made this three over 3 years ago, I made multiple posts noting the era differences that had been forming since 2020, but really since 2017 too. 2017-2019 was sort of a transition phase, 2020 and beyond has been a true explosion of offensive efficiency.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14971908]On a serious note, I just can't take his GOAT case seriously as a center who plays bad defense. Watch him play, he is ****ing lazy and slow on defense. He may be the best offensive player ever apart from Curry, and he's definitely the best offensive center ever, but as a big you really need to play defense to be in the GOAT discussion.[/QUOTE]

He’s not lazy on defense. He has active hands and feet. He tries to do close outs. The Nuggets have taken steps to mitigate his weakness in PnR situations.

There are two things now which lead people to still make this claim. First, he is a terrible rim protector. It’s just not part of his game. Second, but related, he doesn’t often challenge people who are driving the lane because him picking up a foul is worse for the team than letting the guy score. That makes him look lazy, when it’s simply an acknowledgement of what the smarter play is.

So yes, slow in some ways. But he’s not lazy.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14971890]Since when did RRR3 become a Jokic hater? :lol[/QUOTE]

Jokic is a winner, and rrr3 is an enormous loser. It only makes sense.

Also Jokic is actually top 5 in the league in steals, and his advanced defensive metrics are a bit above average. When they won the title they were very good, a few tenths of a point better than Giannis IIRC.

You can also tell with the eye test that while he concedes baskets that will only result in And1s anyway, he positions himself so that opponents get fewer of those opportunities. Opponents miss a lot of bunnies around the basket just by him standing there.

So if you actually have an IQ and see the games, you can see whats going on. But if you're a Jokic hater because you have a shit tier life a la rrr3 and highwey, the "hes so slow and bad defense!" is your cope to try and diminish him, albeit at the cost of embarrassing yourself even more than usual.

[URL="https://x.com/statmuse/status/1882641046817157624?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1882641046817157624%7Ctwgr%5Ed30f931244efe0da52bb20eae766fe36a197f4ef%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fforums.realgm.com%2Fboards%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ft%3D2433640"]https://x.com/statmuse/status/1882641046817157624?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1882641046817157624%7Ctwgr%5Ed30f931244efe0da52bb20eae766fe36a197f4ef%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fforums.realgm.com%2Fboards%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ft%3D2433640[/URL]

This is a crazy stat :lol

Crazy thing is Jokic leads the league by far in 'heave' attempts with 10 on the season. Theres a couple guys with six and a couple with five and then everyone else four or less. A while back he BATTED an inbounds pass volleyball style the full length of the court and actually came reasonably close.

I suspect hes been low key working on these shots, simply because there is nothing else to get better at. Hes gotten so good at the standard game that all there is left to tangibly improve are his full court buzzer beaters.

And the crazy thing is, there could be some playoff scenario where that actually pays off. The fact that he completed the last obscure piece of his development, the end of buzzer full court heave, could actually save a game for them at some point. Not that he can make the shot everytime, but if the practice increases his odds just by a littttttle bit... it could conceivably make the difference between winning or losing a chip.

[QUOTE=Neal Romer;14971975]Crazy thing is Jokic leads the league by far in 'heave' attempts with 10 on the season. Theres a couple guys with six and a couple with five and then everyone else four or less. A while back he BATTED an inbounds pass volleyball style the full length of the court and actually came reasonably close.

I suspect hes been low key working on these shots, simply because there is nothing else to get better at. Hes gotten so good at the standard game that all there is left to tangibly improve are his full court buzzer beaters.

And the crazy thing is, there could be some playoff scenario where that actually pays off. The fact that he completed the last piece of his development, the end of buzzer full court heave, and it actually saves a game for them at some point. Not that he can make the shot everytime, but if the practice increases his odds just by a little bitttttt... it could conceivably make the difference between winning or losing a chip.[/QUOTE]

His dexterity (coordination of the fingers and hands) is about as good as it gets. He'd make a great surgeon.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14971969][URL="https://x.com/statmuse/status/1882641046817157624?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1882641046817157624%7Ctwgr%5Ed30f931244efe0da52bb20eae766fe36a197f4ef%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fforums.realgm.com%2Fboards%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ft%3D2433640"]https://x.com/statmuse/status/1882641046817157624?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1882641046817157624%7Ctwgr%5Ed30f931244efe0da52bb20eae766fe36a197f4ef%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fforums.realgm.com%2Fboards%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ft%3D2433640[/URL]

This is a crazy stat :lol[/QUOTE]

Rick Barry one caught me off guard. Wonder if they counted his ABA days.

Did Jokic play water polo growing up? His ability to play with the ball above his head is the best I've ever seen.

Catches the ball like he's got glue on his hands. Doesn't need to dip on his shots at all because he shoots it behind his head. Makes passes from overhead like no one does. Perfectly blends these two together making it extremely difficult to predict what he's going to do.

Water polo. That's what it reminds me of.

[img]https://media.tenor.com/NwuN4bENmIcAAAAM/goal-olympics.gif[/img]
[img]https://gifdb.com/images/high/montenegro-water-polo-u2s2yl3q3bs2oon4.gif[/img]

It is also odd how Jokic shoots his one legged shots of the wrong foot. Truly 1 of 1. Definitely the best 2nd round pick ever lol.

[QUOTE=Neal Romer;14971975]Crazy thing is Jokic leads the league by far in 'heave' attempts with 10 on the season. Theres a couple guys with six and a couple with five and then everyone else four or less. A while back he BATTED an inbounds pass volleyball style the full length of the court and actually came reasonably close.

I suspect hes been low key working on these shots, simply because there is nothing else to get better at. Hes gotten so good at the standard game that all there is left to tangibly improve are his full court buzzer beaters.

And the crazy thing is, there could be some playoff scenario where that actually pays off. The fact that he completed the last obscure piece of his development, the end of buzzer full court heave, could actually save a game for them at some point. Not that he can make the shot everytime, but if the practice increases his odds just by a littttttle bit... it could conceivably make the difference between winning or losing a chip.[/QUOTE]

Only 10? LeBron has attempted 11 in the last 15 seasons :oldlol:

I like dude, but some of you guys are close to slurping. It doesn’t help anyone see his uniqueness and talent to gush like that. It’s like when you turn on a game and all the announcers do is talk about one player regardless of what is happening.

Hard to see him as underrated in this thread.

-Smak

[QUOTE=ILLsmak;14971986]I like dude, but some of you guys are close to slurping. It doesn’t help anyone see his uniqueness and talent to gush like that. It’s like when you turn on a game and all the announcers do is talk about one player regardless of what is happening.

Hard to see him as underrated in this thread.

-Smak[/QUOTE]

He's not underrated now, but he was 3 years ago when I made this thread. He was clearly starting a GOAT-level run yet the average fan and media member was shitting on him. He was putting up prime Lebron/MJ impact numbers and yet he was talked about less than even Tim Duncan was. There were clear reasons why this happened, but Jokic pretty much made EVERYONE take notice.