The 2011-2014 Heat don't seem stacked anymore

[QUOTE=Dbrog;14920489]I don't typically even like PER but I see it constantly posted on here. My post is in line with that. Siakam is a far stranger comparison to Bosh as he was never leading the Raptors anywhere or leading the league in double doubles, etc etc. Your Jokic to Bron comparison is very confusing too as they are nothing like each other.

Side note: obviously oldman Jrue is still better than Bev but Chalmers was pretty similar back then as he was a good defender who could occasionally get hot on offense. I don't really see the stretch here[/QUOTE]
Siakam led the Raptors farther than Bosh ever did as first option dawg.

those heat teams were never as stacked as we made them out to be

the way they struggled in the regular season is the obvious proof of that


they had huge, easily exploitable holes. they never had real interior defense or any real bigs during those 4 years. hibbert looked like prime shaq against them. every real big man and skilled pointguard would feast on them.

lebrons cavs were better because they were balanced


heat couldve swapped out bosh for a tristan thompson and mozgov duo and would have improved

Just won on the road with no Porzingis, not stacked though.

:oldlol:

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14920689]Just won on the road with no Porzingis, not stacked though.

:oldlol:[/QUOTE]

that because Luka sucked a huge ***** today. thats why.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14920689]Just won on the road with no Porzingis, not stacked though.

:oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Is every nba champion stacked? You continue to be stupid. They've been beating Dallas all season. Remind me who the second AllNBA player is again? Who is the MVP candidate?

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green;14920717]Is every nba champion stacked? You continue to be stupid. They've been beating Dallas all season. [B]Remind me who the second AllNBA player is again[/B]? Who is the MVP candidate?[/QUOTE]

The guy who is about to win FMVP.

[QUOTE=red1;14920552]those heat teams were never as stacked as we made them out to be

the way they struggled in the regular season is the obvious proof of that


they had huge, easily exploitable holes. they never had real interior defense or any real bigs during those 4 years. hibbert looked like prime shaq against them. every real big man and skilled pointguard would feast on them.[/QUOTE]

Facts. That 2013 team is one of only four championship teams in NBA history to be outrebounded on average. And of those four, they were by far the worst of the bunch, literally dead last in rebounding. 30th out of 30 teams.

The fact that their season changed once they acquired Chris Andersen is proof of how huge an issue their lack of bigs was. He was enough of a stopgap to plug the hole somewhat.

IMO, that 2013 Miami team is the most "small ball" championship team ever. Just doesn't seem like it because Bosh is 6'11" even though he's got a long-ass neck and is a power forward that plays more like a small forward than a center.

[QUOTE=red1;14920552]those heat teams were never as stacked as we made them out to be

the way they struggled in the regular season is the obvious proof of that


they had huge, easily exploitable holes. they never had real interior defense or any real bigs during those 4 years. hibbert looked like prime shaq against them. every real big man and skilled pointguard would feast on them.[/QUOTE]
Kong having to be familiar with too many teammates may be a factor about them not winning on a consistent basis. That's why a lot of shuffling or overhauling bt were involved and one that is recurring in his career until now.

[QUOTE=NBAGOAT;14920464]ray allen isnt playing much due to his defense. he at that stage in his career isnt on the same tier as jrue white etc. Someone like current kcp is likely better due to defense even accounting for era I think.[/QUOTE]

Fair point, but it doesn't take away from the fact that someone like Allen added depth to their roster. The 2013 Heat, for example, won 66 games. They did so [I]because[/I] they were stacked. When we look at the roster, the trio to Wade/LeBron/Bosh > JT/JB/KP. Sure, Jrue/White/Horford is probably a better trio than Chalmers/Allen/Battier, but I still believe they look a lot better due to the inflated numbers.

If we account for the rosters in full, then I still think Miami has the edge, though it's probably splitting hairs.

Boston's playoff run is looking a lot better than it actually is given the amount of injuries that occurred in the Eastern Conference. And I don't believe the Mavs are a tougher opponent than the Spurs were in 2013.

[QUOTE=HoopsNY;14920856]Fair point, but it doesn't take away from the fact that someone like Allen added depth to their roster. The 2013 Heat, for example, won 66 games. They did so [I]because[/I] they were stacked. When we look at the roster, the trio to Wade/LeBron/Bosh > JT/JB/KP. Sure, Jrue/White/Horford is probably a better trio than Chalmers/Allen/Battier, but I still believe they look a lot better due to the inflated numbers.

If we account for the rosters in full, then I still think Miami has the edge, though it's probably splitting hairs.

Boston's playoff run is looking a lot better than it actually is given the amount of injuries that occurred in the Eastern Conference. And I don't believe the Mavs are a tougher opponent than the Spurs were in 2013.[/QUOTE]

Sure about Mavs, they’re not the spurs. Do keep in mind even without the injuries Celtics are winning and also they didn’t have porzingis.

Jrue/white/horford don’t have eye popping numbers so I disagree there. They’re guys who are just significantly better on both sides of the ball. White and holiday are top 50 players easily, all-nba defenders who are 3rd options on other title teams very likely. none of the Miami trio were that in 2013. Sure Miami might be more stacked because of their top end guys but with wades injuries and bosh being around all star lvl basically difference comes all from peak lebron vs Tatum lol. The comparison without top guy isn’t really close even accounting for era.

[QUOTE=NBAGOAT;14920890]Sure about Mavs, they’re not the spurs. Do keep in mind even without the injuries Celtics are winning and also they didn’t have porzingis.

Jrue/white/horford don’t have eye popping numbers so I disagree there. They’re guys who are just significantly better on both sides of the ball. White and holiday are top 50 players easily, all-nba defenders who are 3rd options on other title teams very likely. none of the Miami trio were that in 2013. Sure Miami might be more stacked because of their top end guys but with wades injuries and bosh being around all star lvl basically difference comes all from peak lebron vs Tatum lol. The comparison without top guy isn’t really close even accounting for era.[/QUOTE]

I think I worded that badly. Let me rephrase. When I say "inflated", I don't mean their numbers are spectacular. I mean the numbers look better than they would be in other eras.

Jrue's career high in 3pt% came this year - at age 33 - in what is now his 15th season in the league.

Horford has been in the league since 2008. He's in his 17th season. His career high came last season at age 36. And he did so at a near 45% clip. Allen had just one season where he shot the three better than that.

Here's the thing. I don't care what Horford shoots. He's not a better 3 point shooter than Allen was, at any point of their careers. I just think Hoford benefits massively from modern spacing since shooters live on the perimeter.

His game evolved with the style and system, but I think the same would have happened with Allen had his later years come in 2024.

I do agree that Jrue and White are both better than Chalmers, Allen, and Battier though.

Horford’s main value isn’t from shooting. He’s significantly more impactful than old Ray Allen. I think old Ray gets overrated to hell because of his clutch shot, Chalmers, Birdman and Battier were more important to those Heat teams.

[QUOTE=GimmeThat;14920317]name me a team with less ring chasers than the 2011-2014 Heat from the 2000-2010 era[/QUOTE]

Huh? Every team. We're not talking old, veterans at the end of the bench. We're talking starting 5.

[QUOTE=rmt;14920903]Huh? Every team. We're not talking old, veterans at the end of the bench. We're talking starting 5.[/QUOTE]
How the hell was Chalmers a ring chaser? The Heat drafted him. Same for Joel Anthony he was signed out of college. Shut up grandma.

[QUOTE=RRR3;14920905]How the hell was Chalmers a ring chaser? The Heat drafted him. Same for Joel Anthony he was signed out of college. Shut up grandma.[/QUOTE]

When 3 (Lebron, Bosh, Ray) of the team's most important players (and I'll give you Wade as he was drafted by the Heat) are franchise players turned ring chasers, it brings the word "collusion" to a whole 'nother level. The only other team even approaching that (during 2000-10) is KG and Ray (and they had seen their better days in the past - not two 26 year olds and a 29 year old) joining Pierce.

Calling Bosh and ESPECIlALLY 38 year old Ray Allen a franchise player is how I know you’re senile.

Chris Bosh absolutely was a franchise player... he was by a huge margin the best player on the Raptors in the mid 2000s. Multiple time All Star, All NBA, Olympic team... everything.

[QUOTE=tpols;14920952]Chris Bosh absolutely was a franchise player... he was by a huge margin the best player on the Raptors in the mid 2000s. Multiple time All Star, All NBA, Olympic team... everything.[/QUOTE]
Pascal Siakam led the Raptors farther than Bosh ever did is he a franchise player?

Siakam did that once in the bubble beating the Nets with Caris Levert and Joe Harris as their leading scorers. And actually Fred Van Vleet was the leading scorer in that series.

Isn't saying much...

Siakam is actually nice but Bosh was a bit more talented. He had like the 3rd best PER in the entire NBA in 2010. Nobody not great has ever done that.

[QUOTE=tpols;14920956]Siakam did that once in the bubble beating the Nets with Caris Levert and Joe Harris as their leading scorers. And actually Fred Van Vleet was the leading scorer in that series.

Isn't saying much...

Siakam is actually nice but Bosh was a bit more talented. He had like the 3rd best PER in the entire NBA in 2010. Nobody not great has ever done that.[/QUOTE]
Hassan Whiteside has two seasons with a better PER than Bosh ever put up and another tying his best. Was he great? :roll:


And maybe Bosh would have got easier first round opponents if he led his team to as many wins as Siakam did :confusedshrug:

Boshs raptors were not even in the same stratosphere as Siakams in terms of help.

Like I showed before, FVV was the leading scorer in Siakams only playoff win which you were using as some type of end all be all proof. Not only that but Ibaka averaged 19/10 on 63% shooting to Siakams 20/8 on 41%.

You just shot yourself totally in the foot. Bosh was much better than Whiteside and a tad bit better than Siakam. That's just what it is.

[QUOTE=tpols;14920961]Boshs raptors were not even in the same stratosphere as Siakams in terms of help.

Like I showed before, FVV was the leading scorer in Siakams only playoff win which you were using as some type of end all be all proof. Not only that but Ibaka averaged 19/10 on 63% shooting to Siakams 20/8 on 41%.

You just shot yourself totally in the foot. Bosh was much better than Whiteside and a tad bit better than Siakam. That's just what it is.[/QUOTE]
Bosh wasn't better than Whiteside according to your own logic (PER) :confusedshrug:

Argue with your previous posts.

[QUOTE=tpols;14920961]Boshs raptors were not even in the same stratosphere as Siakams in terms of help.

Like I showed before, FVV was the leading scorer in Siakams only playoff win which you were using as some type of end all be all proof. Not only that but Ibaka averaged 19/10 on 63% shooting to Siakams 20/8 on 41%.

You just shot yourself totally in the foot. Bosh was much better than Whiteside and a tad bit better than Siakam. That's just what it is.[/QUOTE]

These kids didn’t even watch nba during that time

Bosh was elite but had literally the worst team.

As the bron kids would say “he needed more help”. But in this case Bosh really did :lol

[QUOTE=RRR3;14920935]Calling Bosh and ESPECIlALLY 38 year old Ray Allen a franchise player is how I know you’re senile.[/QUOTE]

Wade, Bosh and Lebron were franchise players.

[QUOTE=rmt;14921000]Wade, Bosh and Lebron were franchise players.[/QUOTE]
Bosh is a franchise player in the same way Lauri Markkanen is. Meaningless distinction at that point.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14920998]These kids didn’t even watch nba during that time

Bosh was elite but had literally the worst team.

As the bron kids would say “he needed more help”. But in this case Bosh really did :lol[/QUOTE]

Well, in the so-called pathetic East elite Bosh only made the playoffs 2x in 7yrs. His team was the 3 seed in 07 and couldn't even get our of the 1st round.

Very good player, but not close to being elite.

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;14921003]Well, in the so-called pathetic East elite Bosh only made the playoffs 2x in 7yrs. His team was the 3 seed in 07 and couldn't even get our of the 1st round.

Very good player, but not close to being elite.[/QUOTE]
Averaged a deadly 17.5 PPG on 48.7 TS% while getting upset by the 41-41 Nets :lol ELITE!

Bosh wasn't a franchise player, which is no knock on him, there are maybe 10 franchise players in the league at one time, and there's just no way you could look at Bosh's body of work in Toronto and reach the conclusion he was a legitimate franchise player.

Even if you gave him a better supporting cast than he had in Toronto, what would be your realistic expectation of a team with Bosh as it's best player? That's a 2nd round exit at best, maybe they sneak into a conference finals once if all hell breaks loose with injuries.

If you're a franchise player you should be able to lead any team to the playoffs on a regular basis, you should be All-NBA annually, you should top 10 in MVP voting annually, and there should be a realistic scenario where you could lead a contending team to a championship; Chris Bosh checks none of these boxes.

Bosh was not elite but he was probably the best player at third option for much of his time with Wade and James. His problem was that he was forced to play an exclusively complimentary role. Instead of getting a lot of post plays he was spacing the floor which was a waste of talent but James and Wade were the two best players in the league at attacking the basket so he had to get out of the paint. His numbers suffered as a result and bounced back once the stars left.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14921020]Bosh wasn't a franchise player, which is no knock on him, there are maybe 10 franchise players in the league at one time, and there's just no way you could look at Bosh's body of work in Toronto and reach the conclusion he was a legitimate franchise player.

Even if you gave him a better supporting cast than he had in Toronto, what would be your realistic expectation of a team with Bosh as it's best player? That's a 2nd round exit at best, maybe they sneak into a conference finals once if all hell breaks loose with injuries.

If you're a franchise player you should be able to lead any team to the playoffs on a regular basis, you should be All-NBA annually, you should top 10 in MVP voting annually, and there should be a realistic scenario where you could lead a contending team to a championship; Chris Bosh checks none of these boxes.[/QUOTE]

I think your standards for franchise player are REALLY high. By your definition, Wemby, AD, Ja, etc. aren't franchise players. And 20 teams don't have franchise players but 6 of them make the playoffs despite not having one. But to each his own.

[QUOTE=rmt;14921037]I think your standards for franchise player are REALLY high. By your definition, Wemby, AD, Ja, etc. aren't franchise players. And 20 teams don't have franchise players but 6 of them make the playoffs despite not having one. But to each his own.[/QUOTE]
I think standards for a franchise player SHOULD be very high, it should be reserved for the truly elite of the league. If we're applying it to a guy like Bosh who could barely muster a playoff appearance or even a winning record in a weak Eastern conference, the term loses all significance. What the hell is the point of calling someone a "franchise" player when the franchise is consistently in the lottery with them at the helm.

friendly reminder: time to pay your rent on me saying Lebron could easily be a decent 3 point shooter in the NBA

[QUOTE=rmt;14921037]I think your standards for franchise player are REALLY high. By your definition, Wemby, AD, Ja, etc. aren't franchise players. And 20 teams don't have franchise players but 6 of them make the playoffs despite not having one. But to each his own.[/QUOTE]

They are playing semantics to try to downplay Bosh. It’s pretty lame and transparent.

Once again I invite anyone who wants to hate on Bosh for not having team success in Toronto….take a look at his rosters if you didn’t follow NBA back then….it’s some of the worst of the worst. What did you want him to do exactly?

Trying to write off Bosh’s ability for the fact he had zero help in Toronto is flat out disingenuous.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14921084]They are playing semantics to try to downplay Bosh. It’s pretty lame and transparent.

Once again I invite anyone who wants to hate on Bosh for not having team success in Toronto….take a look at his rosters if you didn’t follow NBA back then….it’s some of the worst of the worst. What did you want him to do exactly?

Trying to write off Bosh’s ability for the fact he had zero help in Toronto is flat out disingenuous.[/QUOTE]

the ideaology behind the Heat management became "if you don't outsweat your opponents to win, then you're just like the Harlem Globetrotters"

but again, the fundamental flaw behind it all is the lack of spacing and sharing the floor, which is where Birdman came in.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14921084]They are playing semantics to try to downplay Bosh. It’s pretty lame and transparent.

Once again I invite anyone who wants to hate on Bosh for not having team success in Toronto….take a look at his rosters if you didn’t follow NBA back then….it’s some of the worst of the worst. What did you want him to do exactly?

Trying to write off Bosh’s ability for the fact he had zero help in Toronto is flat out disingenuous.[/QUOTE]

its not a question of STACKED!

Its really a question of SUPER!

Magic's LAL were STACKED. Bird's BOS were STACKED.

Chris Bosh was Raptors leader and Franchise and legit 24 ppg 11 rpg All Star before joining LBJ at age 26.

LBJ's Ball Dominance style reduced Bosh to 16 PPG 6 RPG do not mean Bosh is any less.

Its LBJs fault that he cannot make players better under him. because he is a playmaker, ball dominator.

Especially when Bosh was 26 YO, LBJ was 25 YO and Wade was 29 YO. all in their best year.

That 3rd Franchise All-Star leader in Bosh and Love make HEAT and CAVs both SUPER teams not STACKED teams.

[QUOTE=gengiskhan;14921122]its not a question of STACKED!

Its really a question of SUPER!

Magic's LAL were STACKED. Bird's BOS were STACKED.

Chris Bosh was Raptors leader and Franchise and legit 24 ppg 11 rpg All Star before joining LBJ at age 26.

[B]LBJ's Ball Dominance style reduced Bosh to 16 PPG 6 RPG[/B] do not mean Bosh is any less.

Its LBJs fault that he cannot make players better under him. because he is a playmaker, ball dominator.

Especially when Bosh was 26 YO, LBJ was 25 YO and Wade was 29 YO. all in their best year.

That 3rd Franchise All-Star leader in Bosh and Love make HEAT and CAVs both SUPER teams not STACKED teams.[/QUOTE]

We're still on this?

I thought that one died years ago.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14921124]We're still on this?

I thought that one died years ago.[/QUOTE]

Since the Goal Post kept moving for LBJ, this will pop up over and over again.

ESPN and Klutch Media's desperation in showing LBJ never had super team. MJ's Bulls were super team or at least stacked team. neither of it is true.

Here is what really happened.

Both Heat and Bulls showed up at the top of their decade. 1991 and 2011 respectively.

Unlike Bulls, Heat were literally handed down keys to weak, anemic East Conf. and young SUPER team. Hence, "not 3, not 4, not 5, not 6, not 7..."

SAS tried challenging Heat but were too old. OKC fizzeled away and were suppose to be true contenders to Heat.

It was GSW that really busted open Heat's championship decade long party. 4-peat turned into RE-peat for Heat.

GSW still turned into DYNASTY despite 1 painful loss. LBJ Colluded again in weak East Conf another SUPER Team hoping for DYNASTRY that never happened. then he jumps ship again to LA warm waters.

All LBJ has is this 4-6 losing record. with that laughable bubble ring!. thats a huge asteriks.

Now comes the pi$$ed off Media. ESPN and Klutch Media changing Goal Post after Goal Post. Either its MJs 1-9 start with cocaine circus OR MJs Final opponents were weak OR laughable longevity argument now.

this will continue. Because LBJ has not even single 3peat to show for. Despite 2 SUPER teams and 1 STACKED team.

[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14837208]At least compared to so many of the teams that have existed since 2017.

2011 Heat:
Mike Bibby (end of career)
Wade
Lebron
Bosh
Joel Anthony (lol) or Big Z (end of career)

Then the 2011 Heat was shit with Haslem, Mike Miller (actually decent but was always hurt) James Jones, Mario Chalmers, Juwan Howard (end of career), Eddie House.

Shit just look at the starting lineups of the Bucks/Celtics this year. They look just as good or even better than those Heat teams. Biggest difference is just Lebron being so much better than everyone else outside of the 2011 finals.

Celtics:
Jrue Holiday
Jason Tatum
Jaylen Brown
Al Horford
Kristaps[/QUOTE]

Bumping my thread. It's actually even funnier comparing the 2011-2014 heat to the Celtics now since they are defending champs. AND I didn't even include White/Pritchard in my original Celtics starting 5 comparison, yet these two guys just dropped 40 points in the same game.

It's love to see the 2013 Heat with modern coaching/analytics.

LeBron ball made that Heat team seem less stacked.

LeBron’s game devalues players.