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[QUOTE=Kblaze8855;14945009][IMG]https://i.ibb.co/jg9gXMF/IMG-0009.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
cool. your bball takes were just as shitty as they were almost two decades ago. congrats?
[QUOTE=warriorfan;14945032]cool. your bball takes were just as shitty as they were almost two decades ago. congrats?[/QUOTE]
You were insisting LeBron James isn't top 10 the other day, I wouldn't talk about someone clearly more intelligent than you.
[QUOTE=ILLsmak;14944905]Go to the Shaq vs Bron thread. haha, when people start talking about something interesting (tho that's not so interesting,) gotta stay with that. Just like Caitlin is THE TRUTH thread. The thing about 3ball is he is persistent. Gotta be as persistent. Gotta work for good bball discussion!!
-Smak[/QUOTE]
Yeah I've made a few posts in the Shaq/Lebron thread. How the posters here let 3balls topics go 9 pages with actual serious replies is one of life's great mysteries.
[QUOTE=RRR3;14945035]You were insisting LeBron James isn't top 10 the other day, I wouldn't talk about someone clearly more intelligent than you.[/QUOTE]
Thing is I don’t care if he agrees with what I said. I just find it funny he spent years telling me I think what I think because of LeBron when time and time again I have proven I said the same thing before there was any connection. Just like I can show you me thinking Gasol was better when he won 22 games.
It’s just a product of never ending bad faith arguments. People don’t even have legitimate convictions. They just have well worn battle tested agenda based points they have leaned on thousands of times till they no longer have the ability to be genuine.
And such people can’t even get their heads around the fact that many opinions exist independent of the agendas they have spent decades pushing and fighting.
I pointed out to him once, that he’s one of the people I cannot get an unfiltered opinion on for a number of players because he is in never ending arguments about everybody associated with LeBron Kobe Steph, and Jordan, so nothing can be said that could be used against him later. He didn’t even disagree. Just laughed and said he was doing his best.
For the life of me, I can’t understand it.
3ball is obviously the worst of those types. I made a topic once about how do we Account for how much someone shoots when we list points per game and he comes in and tells me it’s some roundabout way to suggest LeBron is actually a better scorer than Jordan when it was just a rehash of a topic I made in 2003 about James Worthy versus Dominique Wilkins.
The entire sports World needs a reset. Clear all agendas. No “Oh but last time you said…”.
Just get people back to being themselves. Maybe we can stop hearing people lie about thinking Chris Bosh was better then finals MVP Kobe and hear legitimate opinions.
I actually do care what most of you people have to say. I wouldn’t ask if I didn’t give a shit. Just annoying to see how often what people have to say is exactly what one would expect they think based on who they hate.
Nobody…and I do mean nobody… Is dumb enough to think Chris Bosh who wasn’t even all nba third team was better than this Kobe
[video=youtube_share;zx02W5pc7yQ]https://youtu.be/zx02W5pc7yQ?si=EgE6-MtGLfa4HKaH[/video]
but because he needs to make Bosh out to be as great as possible before joining the heat, he has to lie about thinking it. And being willing to be that dishonest about opinions, makes him think everyone else must be as well.
At that point, there’s almost no reason to even be talking to each other.
Even at its best sports talk isn’t exactly useful. But when it’s this colored by adherence to agendas, it is utterly ****ing pointless.
That last reporter question...
'Do you think he's the best player ever, even better than Jordan?'
Its interesting how off the rails the discourse has gone now, where 14 years later some people argue these were never serious talking points in the moment. What Kobe showed in that video was absolutely as lethal as anything MJ did in a given moment. Doesn't mean Kobe was overall better game to game, season to season but these topics weren't pulled out of thin air for shits and giggles.
It's like the people who act like Kobe vs Tmac in 2003 wasn't a legit argument because of the inability to separate hindsight from the there and then of the moment.
'
[QUOTE=Phoenix;14945081]That last reporter question...
'Do you think he's the best player ever, even better than Jordan?'
Its interesting how off the rails the discourse has gone now, where 14 years later some people argue these were never serious talking points in the moment. What Kobe showed in that video was absolutely as lethal as anything MJ did in a given moment. Doesn't mean Kobe was overall better game to game, season to season but these topics weren't pulled out of thin air for shits and giggles.
It's like the people who act like Kobe vs Tmac in 2003 wasn't a legit argument because of the inability to separate hindsight from the there and then of the moment.
'[/QUOTE]
I made a topic in 2003 saying I didn’t understand why people feel the need to wait to acknowledge what’s right in front of them. I think the specific example I used was Kobe and Tmac that season versus bird in like 1984. I said in 20 years, it will be considered a perfectly valid question to ask 2003 Kobe/Tmac versus 1984 bird. so why isn’t it valid right now?
The general answer naturally involved not knowing the future. And in Tmacs example the future didn’t end up what we expected. But that still doesn’t make him any worse in 2003. It just makes us more unwilling to acknowledge it.
So maybe Tmac hurt my argument….but it shouldn’t.
02 and 03 Tmac was a perfectly normal pick for top 3 in a league with Duncan, KG, Shaq, and Kobe all in or near prime form. But getting hurt later and falling off, makes him a name people are uncomfortable acknowledging is in the same all-time company they were. Even only as basketball players and not career wise.
[QUOTE]
And Zach Lavine put up 24+ a game on 48/39/85 on a playoff team. I could run you down a good list of hall of famers to never do that. Even if we throw out the 3 and ft percentages.
Nobody cares. And nobody should.
[/QUOTE]
Zach lavine did have a better offensive season than Pippen ever did when he averaged 27/5/5 on elite efficiency. The problem is dude doesn't play defense. His splits for ORTG and DRTG are literally neutral and even negative at times... meaning he gives up just as many buckets as he makes.
That simply wasn't the case with Chris Bosh. His offensive efficiency and production was similar to Lavine, but his defensive metrics were waaay better. Bosh has big time positive splits.
I know you don't care about real measurable metrics and data, and rely rather on how you [I]feeel[/I]... but those are just the facts. Bosh produced far more buckets than he gave up. And his prime splits and production are similar to Pippen if not better. Of course he played most of his prime with bums while Scottie played with Michael ****ing Jordan. And there-in lies the reason one is considered way better ranked despite not really being all that much better @ all. The winning spotlight.
Pau was just as good as Pippen as well but spent a huge chunk of his prime with mediocre at best help. If he played with Kobe for over a decade and won 5 rings with him he'd see a massive bump in his GOAT ranking.
[QUOTE=tpols;14945084]Zach lavine did have a better offensive season than Pippen ever did when he averaged 27/5/5 on elite efficiency. The problem is dude doesn't play defense. His splits for ORTG and DRTG are literally neutral and even negative at times... meaning he gives up just as many buckets as he makes.
That simply wasn't the case with Chris Bosh. His offensive efficiency and production was similar to Lavine, but his defensive metrics were waaay better. Bosh has big time positive splits.
I know you don't care about real measurable metrics and data, and rely rather on how you [I]feeel[/I]... but those are just the facts. Bosh produced far more buckets than he gave up. And his prime splits and production are similar to Pippen if not better. Of course he played most of his prime with bums while Scottie played with Michael ****ing Jordan. And there-in lies the reason one is considered way better ranked despite not really being all that much better @ all. The winning spotlight.
Pau was just as good as Pippen as well but spent a huge chunk of his prime with mediocre at best help. If he played with Kobe for over a decade and won 5 rings with him he'd see a massive bump in his GOAT ranking.[/QUOTE]
Bosh was never known as a defender in Toronto. His defense peaked in Miami, and his post defense was always mediocre.
It's crazy how much people are trying to re-write history in this thread, from warriorfan saying Bosh > Kobe in 2010 and now tpols saying Bosh was some defensive force in Toronto.
Nobody said Bosh was a defensive force, but again he had way better defensive metrics than a Zach Lavine or Bradley Beal type. Like... way better. This is documented fact. His splits were always in the big time positive. There are a lot of go to scorers who gave up just as much as they produced. Bosh simply wasn't one of them.
[QUOTE=tpols;14945090]Nobody said Bosh was a defensive force, but again he had way better defensive metrics than a Zach Lavine or Bradley Beal type. Like... way better. This is documented fact. His splits were always in the big time positive. There are a lot of go to scorers who gave up just as much as they produced. Bosh simply wasn't one of them.[/QUOTE]
Bosh's defensive box plus/minus was in the negative throughout his 7 years in Toronto and the Raptors had the worst defense in the NBA in 2010 with Bosh.
Using defense as some sort of decisive factor when arguing for Toronto Bosh is retarded.
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855;14945078]Thing is I don’t care if he agrees with what I said. I just find it funny he spent years telling me I think what I think because of LeBron when time and time again I have proven I said the same thing before there was any connection. Just like I can show you me thinking Gasol was better when he won 22 games.
It’s just a product of never ending bad faith arguments. People don’t even have legitimate convictions. They just have well worn battle tested agenda based points they have leaned on thousands of times till they no longer have the ability to be genuine.
And such people can’t even get their heads around the fact that many opinions exist independent of the agendas they have spent decades pushing and fighting.
I pointed out to him once, that he’s one of the people I cannot get an unfiltered opinion on for a number of players because he is in never ending arguments about everybody associated with LeBron Kobe Steph, and Jordan, so nothing can be said that could be used against him later. He didn’t even disagree. Just laughed and said he was doing his best.
For the life of me, I can’t understand it.
3ball is obviously the worst of those types. I made a topic once about how do we Account for how much someone shoots when we list points per game and he comes in and tells me it’s some roundabout way to suggest LeBron is actually a better scorer than Jordan when it was just a rehash of a topic I made in 2003 about James Worthy versus Dominique Wilkins.
The entire sports World needs a reset. Clear all agendas. No “Oh but last time you said…”.
Just get people back to being themselves. Maybe we can stop hearing people lie about thinking Chris Bosh was better then finals MVP Kobe and hear legitimate opinions.
I actually do care what most of you people have to say. I wouldn’t ask if I didn’t give a shit. Just annoying to see how often what people have to say is exactly what one would expect they think based on who they hate.
Nobody…and I do mean nobody… Is dumb enough to think Chris Bosh who wasn’t even all nba third team was better than this Kobe
[video=youtube_share;zx02W5pc7yQ]https://youtu.be/zx02W5pc7yQ?si=EgE6-MtGLfa4HKaH[/video]
but because he needs to make Bosh out to be as great as possible before joining the heat, he has to lie about thinking it. And being willing to be that dishonest about opinions, makes him think everyone else must be as well.
At that point, there’s almost no reason to even be talking to each other.
Even at its best sports talk isn’t exactly useful. But when it’s this colored by adherence to agendas, it is utterly ****ing pointless.[/QUOTE]
That’s a whole lotta words to dance around the fact that your criticisms with bosh aren’t consistent with other dudes you talk about.
You can say I have the agenda when you are obviously projecting.
Didn’t you call Bosh Antonio McDyess a few posts ago? You are gonna try to clutch your pearls and act like 3ball and I are trolls and come with this nonsense? Stop being a f.aggot.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14945091]Bosh's defensive box plus/minus was in the negative throughout his 7 years in Toronto and the Raptors had the worst defense in the NBA in 2010 with Bosh.
Using defense as some sort of decisive factor when arguing for Toronto Bosh is retarded.[/QUOTE]
DBPM is the worst stat. Creator of the stat even admits it. Google it, it’s in writing on basketball reference.
Bosh is honestly MUCH closer to McDyess than he is to 2010 Kobe :lol
[QUOTE=warriorfan;14945093]DBPM is the worst stat. Creator of the stat even admits it. Google it, it’s in writing on basketball reference.[/QUOTE]
All defensive advanced stats have flaws, tpols was the one who brought up advanced defensive metrics for Bosh's case. Toronto Bosh and defense do not go hand in hand.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14945095]All defensive advanced stats have flaws, tpols was the one who brought up advanced defensive metrics for Bosh's case. Toronto Bosh and defense do not go hand in hand.[/QUOTE]
That’s fair I’m just giving you a heads up that it is a shitty stat.
[QUOTE] Box Plus/Minus is a very good offensive metric, but it struggles some with defense. As mentioned before, when all you have is a box score, you cannot estimate defense very well. Not including minutes per game in the regression also hampers the accuracy of the defensive estimates. In other words--take DBPM with a spoonful of salt.[/QUOTE]
source: [url]https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm2.html[/url]
[QUOTE=warriorfan;14945092]That’s a whole lotta words to dance around the fact that your criticisms with bosh aren’t consistent with other dudes you talk about.
You can say I have the agenda when you are obviously projecting.
Didn’t you call Bosh Antonio McDyess a few posts ago? You are gonna try to clutch your pearls and act like 3ball and I are trolls and come with this nonsense? Stop being a f.aggot.[/QUOTE]
Nothing to project about. It’s the same thing I’ve been consistently saying about the exact same players for 18 years. You could pull my text on Bosh word for word from 15 to 18 years ago and slide them in with shit I said last year and not tell them apart. I don’t need to bullshit anybody. I don’t need to come with a bunch of takes I don’t actually believe.
Bosh did absolutely nothing on a basketball court to the distinguish himself as some other level from any of the people I mentioned. Dice could shoot. He was more athletic than Bosch. He was a tougher player inside and a better rebounder. He was a better defender than Boswell’s in Toronto. I would say Bosh developed more consistent range and was a better triple threat player, but I’ll tell you exactly what I said 18 years ago. There isn’t enough of a difference between what Chris Bosh does and those other players do to bother making a different level.
We don’t need 37 levels. If your team has prime dice, and you trade him for prime Bosh, you haven’t filled any kind of hole. You haven’t stepped up the significance of your franchise. You’re gonna stay whatever you already were. Might as well be trading Boozer for Zach Randolph. You can have a preference, but whatever difference there is between the two doesn’t matter.
[QUOTE]Bosh's defensive box plus/minus was in the negative throughout his 7 years in Toronto and the Raptors had the worst defense in the NBA in 2010 with Bosh.
[/QUOTE]
See this is where you need to pay attention to the debate and not hop in without reading like a fool. Reading is fundamental.
Kblaze was listing guys like Lavine or Beal types who put up huge statlines on great efficiency as a comparison to Chris Bosh. Chris Bosh's defense however was way better than theirs. He was in the big time positive when it came to his ORTG and DRTG splits differential. Just because Bosh wasn't KG or Duncan doesn't mean he was a bad defender. It's a spectrum. Kind of like what's going on with your brain.
I understand people dismissing players who put up big stat lines but then have terrible defensive metrics where it's statistically proven they were giving up more than they produced. The metrics don't paint that picture for Chris Bosh. They don't paint it for Pau. And they don't paint it for Pippen. These were all great players. One is simply ranked way higher because he played with the GOAT on great teams while the other two for more than half their primes didn't.
Were trying to educate you on the impact of the winning spotlight effect.
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855;14945100]Nothing to project about. It’s the same thing I’ve been consistently saying about the exact same players for 18 years. You could pull my text on Bosh word for word from 15 to 18 years ago and slide them in with shit I said last year and not tell them apart. I don’t need to bullshit anybody. I don’t need to come with a bunch of takes I don’t actually believe.
Bosh did absolutely nothing on a basketball court to the distinguish himself as some other level from any of the people I mentioned. Dice could shoot. He was more athletic than Bosch. He was a tougher player inside and a better rebounder. He was a better defender than Boswell’s in Toronto. I would say Bosh developed more consistent range and was a better triple threat player, but I’ll tell you exactly what I said 18 years ago. There isn’t enough of a difference between what Chris Bosh does and those other players do to bother making a different level.
We don’t need 37 levels. If your team has prime dice, and you trade him for prime Bosh, you haven’t filled any kind of hole. You haven’t stepped up the significance of your franchise. You’re gonna stay whatever you already were. Might as well be trading Boozer for Zach Randolph. You can have a preference, but whatever difference there is between the two doesn’t matter.[/QUOTE]
comparing him to mcdyess is disrespectful
i’ve seen you simp for guys who never won a ring and how it’s so unfair they get criticism for things they can’t control, and that is why lebron made a super team, it’s ring counting fans, blah blah blah
now you come around and shit on bosh for not setting the world on fire with jose calderon in toronto
you are full of shit
[QUOTE=tpols;14945102]See this is where you need to pay attention to the debate and not hop in without reading like a fool. Reading is fundamental.
Kblaze was listing guys like Lavine or Beal types who put up huge statlines on great efficiency as a comparison to Chris Bosh. Chris Bosh's defense however was way better than theirs. He was in the big time positive when it came to his ORTG and DRTG splits differential. Just because Bosh wasn't KG or Duncan doesn't mean he was a bad defender. It's a spectrum. Kind of like what's going on with your brain.
I understand people dismissing players who put up big stat lines but then have terrible defensive metrics where it's statistically proven they were giving up more than they produced. The metrics don't paint that picture for Chris Bosh. They don't paint it for Pau. And they don't paint it for Pippen. These were all great players. One is simply ranked way higher because he played with the GOAT on great teams while the other two for more than half their primes didn't.
Were trying to educate you on the impact of the winning spotlight effect.[/QUOTE]
I actually watched Toronto Bosh while you were still in middle school, nothing about his defense stood out. He was a poor post defender mainly because he was pretty skinny, and most of the time the effort simply wasn't there mainly because he was the offense of Toronto. He gave you some rim protection because of his length, but he was always known as the skinny guy who didn't like to defend the post.
I remember Shaq calling Bosh soft after a game in 2009 I believe after he dropped 45 on him.
[url]https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/2009/3/2/18595443/shaquille-o-neal-calls-chris-bosh-the-rupaul-of-big-men[/url]
[QUOTE=tpols;14945084]Zach lavine did have a better offensive season than Pippen ever did when he averaged 27/5/5 on elite efficiency. The problem is dude doesn't play defense. His splits for ORTG and DRTG are literally neutral and even negative at times... meaning he gives up just as many buckets as he makes.
That simply wasn't the case with Chris Bosh. His offensive efficiency and production was similar to Lavine, but his defensive metrics were waaay better. Bosh has big time positive splits.
I know you don't care about real measurable metrics and data, and rely rather on how you [I]feeel[/I]... but those are just the facts. Bosh produced far more buckets than he gave up. And his prime splits and production are similar to Pippen if not better. Of course he played most of his prime with bums while Scottie played with Michael ****ing Jordan. And there-in lies the reason one is considered way better ranked despite not really being all that much better @ all. The winning spotlight.
Pau was just as good as Pippen as well but spent a huge chunk of his prime with mediocre at best help. If he played with Kobe for over a decade and won 5 rings with him he'd see a massive bump in his GOAT ranking.[/QUOTE]
I don’t feel a need for another 300 obvious example argument about why numbers don’t necessarily make two players equal even in the same league…. And definitely don’t across eras. Is the kind of thing everyone knows what has to selectively ignore to make points. I’ll just say I’ve been reading a lot of really old raptors discussions today. It’s funny how much worse they apparently got in retrospect when people need to act like Bosh was carrying garbage.
I found several arguments with me trying to explain why I didn’t think Jose Calderon should be an All Star while the efficiency whores on here we’re talking about me using the eye test and what I “feel” just like you.
Giving me metrics and numbers comparing his shooting to people like Jason Kidd. And as usual, my response was exactly exactly what it would be today.
[QUOTE]
And this means what to me?
Jose calderon has become oof those "Look at the numbers!" players who gets a following beyond his talents ability to justify. He has a good combo of the things it takes to get such a following.
He started as a no name so people who like him can claim they knew he was great from the jump. Hes got a high assist/turnover ratio. He shoots well from the field.
All good things. But they dont make anyone dominant. Got people talking about his production as legendary. As if 50/40/90 makes him better than a guy like Isiah Thomas or something. Its just a string of stats put together because they look nice. There are hall of famers who never shot near 50%. There have been points better than Calderon who didnt shoot 40% at the time. If you shoot 50/40/90 and 200 people who didnt do it were better than you...what does it even matter? Gilbert Arenas is the only 200 threes 700 free throws player ever. That really factor into anyones rankings? Its just trivia. A question for Canadian Jeopardy.
[/QUOTE]
apparently, I just hated all of Canada because I didn’t think the Raptors had multiple All-Stars.
And that wasn’t even Jose best season. He did 13/9 on 50/41/98 the season after that.
And considering defense, he wasn’t even the second best player on the team at the time. You should’ve seen the old Raptors versus Knicks and Celtics fan arguments. Net fans were around there a bit as well.
Between Calderon and TJ Ford before him? A lot of people weren’t sure who was making those teams play well when they did. There was a whole TJ Ford contingent on my ass telling me he was leading the Raptors to the playoffs because of the lingering Kirk Hinrich TJ Ford debate from their rookie season.
always funny to me the way shit changes in retrospect.
Bosh couldn’t defend shaq well so therefore he was a bad defender?
Dope logic.
Again... nobody said Bosh was KG or Tim Duncan. Yes his post defense wasn't great especially against guys who had 100 lbs on him... doesn't take PHD in physics to figure that out... but his versatility and agility and footspeed guarding the perimeter as an almost 7 footer was elite. And his defensive metrics were way better than all of the stars we've seen who drop 25 and give up 30 on the other end like... Lavine or Beal. That's the point. He was in the positive and they weren't. So that comparison had to get shut down.
[QUOTE=warriorfan;14945109]Bosh couldn’t defend shaq well so therefore he was a bad defender?
Dope logic.[/QUOTE]
:roll:
[QUOTE=warriorfan;14945109]Bosh couldn’t defend shaq well so therefore he was a bad defender?
Dope logic.[/QUOTE]
Shaq was like 37 when he dropped 45 on Toronto. It was the most points he scored that entire season.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;14945113]Shaq was like 37 when he dropped 45 on Toronto. It was the most points he scored that entire season.[/QUOTE]
He’s gonna call you short and a slur soon if you keep bullying him.
[QUOTE=RRR3;14945115]He’s gonna call you short and a slur soon if you keep bullying him.[/QUOTE]
Go away. The adults are speaking.
Jose Calderon was actually pretty nice for a few years in Toronto. Offensively he was quite good actually for a pass first PG. Ultra efficient for the era. I watched a lot of these games live, I'm from Canada and we get all Toronto games on local tv.
Bosh was not a good defender back then either. You know why he became an excellent defender with Miami? Because he wasn't relied upon as the #1 or #2 option and he was in a much different defensive culture. It's the same reason Paul Peirce's defense improved when KG and Thibs came over. The defensive antennas go up and effort goes up when everyone is being held accountable.
[QUOTE=warriorfan;14945103]comparing him to mcdyess is disrespectful
i’ve seen you simp for guys who never won a ring and how it’s so unfair they get criticism for things they can’t control, and that is why lebron made a super team, it’s ring counting fans, blah blah blah
now you come around and shit on bosh for not setting the world on fire with jose calderon in toronto
you are full of shit[/QUOTE]
he was getting compared to people like Caron Butler and Carlos boozer at the time. Boozer was all NBA over Chris Bosh. In what World is someone ranked behind Carlos boozer unreasonable to compare to Antonio? Do you remember him before his knee injury?
I was doing exactly what you’re talking about when you say I defended people on bad teams when I had Paul Gasol over Chris Bosh. His team won 22 games and I had him firmly ahead of Bosh. You just keep saying the same shit over when the reason I was unimpressed was laid out before he was even established as a loser. I said the same thing about Bosh winning and losing. Feels like you should be able to grasp what that means. Just wasn’t impressed by his game. I’ve been unimpressed by winners and impressed by losers. In this case, there is absolutely no question. I was unimpressed by him both ways so you really have no argument.
Some players being great when they lose, doesn’t mean all people who lose are. And some people being able to win while not doing very much doesn’t mean all winners backed into it. Steph Curry or Wilt Chamberlain missing the playoffs On a bad team is not the same as Jerry Stackhouse missing the playoffs on a bad team just because they all scored 30 a game doing it. It’s always case by case and that is too obvious for me to believe you don’t know it.
though the more you stick to your guns on some of these issues the more I’m worried I could be giving you too much credit.
Regarding the TMac Bird thing Kblaze it’s because TMac never won so now people pretend he wasn’t great.
[QUOTE=warriorfan;14945117]Go away. The adults are speaking.[/QUOTE]
Yeah idk if you realize this but it’s not adult behavior to spend days arguing something you don’t believe (Chris Bosh being some godly player) just to keep up your agenda (LeBron isn’t that good actually!!!!).
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855;14945119]he was getting compared to people like Caron Butler and Carlos boozer at the time. Boozer was all NBA over Chris Bosh. In what World is someone ranked behind Carlos boozer unreasonable to compare to Antonio? Do you remember him before his knee injury?
I was doing exactly what you’re talking about when you say I defended people on bad teams when I had Paul Gasol over Chris Bosh. His team won 22 games and I had him firmly ahead of Bosh. You just keep saying the same shit over when the reason I was unimpressed was laid out before he was even established as a loser. I said the same thing about Bosh winning and losing. Feels like you should be able to grasp what that means. Just wasn’t impressed by his game. I’ve been unimpressed by winners and impressed by losers. In this case, there is absolutely no question. I was unimpressed by him both ways so you really have no argument.
Some players being great when they lose, doesn’t mean all people who lose are. And some people being able to win while not doing very much doesn’t mean all winners backed into it. It’s always case by case and that is too obvious for me to believe you don’t know it.
though the more you stick to your guns on some of these issues the more I’m worried I could be giving you too much credit.[/QUOTE]
Boozer was actually great back then. Comparing Bosh to Boozer during the last few years in Utah is fine.
Boozer during that stretch was considerably better than Mcdyess. Drop the Mcdyess shit.
[QUOTE=Carbine;14945118]Jose Calderon was actually pretty nice for a few years in Toronto. Offensively he was quite good actually for a pass first PG. Ultra efficient for the era. I watched a lot of these games live, I'm from Canada and we get all Toronto games on local tv.
Bosh was not a good defender back then either. You know why he became an excellent defender with Miami? Because he wasn't relied upon as the #1 or #2 option and he was in a much different defensive culture. It's the same reason Paul Peirce's defense improved when KG and Thibs came over. The defensive antennas go up and effort goes up when everyone is being held accountable.[/QUOTE]
Is this dude really trying to low key hype Jose Calderon.
:roll:
Ok man, you sold us, Bosh did not have “not enough help” in toronto. He was good. Him and Jose. Bosh just was an empty stat loser with no D.
Sounds legit.
As a playmaker and shooter. Calderon was one of the best. He doesn’t get talked about enough for his shooting ability.
[QUOTE]
Boozer was actually great back then. Comparing Bosh to Boozer during the last few years in Utah is fine.
Boozer during that stretch was considerably better than Mcdyess. Drop the Mcdyess shit.
[/QUOTE]
There is absolutely no reason to put much separation between those three players. Like I said, if you want to make the top 50 contain 30 different levels OK. But it’s like making a level between Toronto Vince Carter and Bucks Ray Allen. You can like one or the other but there are no ****ing levels.
Let’s argue David West and Paul Millsap while we’re at it.
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855;14945127]There is absolutely no reason to put much separation between those three players. Like I said, if you want to make the top 50 contain 30 different levels OK. But it’s like making a level between Toronto Vince Carter and Bucks Ray Allen. You can like one or the other but there are no ****ing levels.
Let’s argue David West and Paul Millsap while we’re at it.
no, he wasn’t. Make dice would’ve been the best defender of the three. Boozer was actually great back then. Comparing Bosh to Boozer during the last few years in Utah is fine.
Boozer during that stretch was considerably better than Mcdyess. Drop the Mcdyess shit.[/QUOTE]
Lebron is the same as t mac who’s the same as penny who’s the same as bradly beal who’s the same as jason terry who’s the same as jose calderon who’s the same as bronny james
So basically Lebron and Bronny James are the same player.
Yeah no, get out of here with this logic. It’s straight garbage.
[QUOTE=warriorfan;14945129]Lebron is the same as t mac who’s the same as penny who’s the same as bradly beal who’s the same as jason terry who’s the same as jose calderon who’s the same as bronny james
So basically Lebron and Bronny James are the same player.
Yeah no, get out of here with this logic. It’s straight garbage.[/QUOTE]
So my “Logic”(similar players with similar production are on a similar level) suggests Lebron is a 10th man due to transitive property.
You’ve clearly entered an unhinged era and I’m gonna go ahead and disregard you for a while until you come back to earth and I can talk to you like a normal human being.
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855;14945131]So my “Logic”(similar players with similar production are on a similar level) suggests Lebron is a 10th man due to transitive property.
You’ve clearly entered an unhinged era and I’m gonna go ahead and disregard you for a while until you come back to earth and I can talk to you like a normal human being.[/QUOTE]
you are the one busting out the transitive properties trying to make vague ass connections with players who are obviously worse
I just took it another step to highlight how absurd the practice is
you can keep telling yourself mcdyess was “just as good” as prime chris bosh but idk, you are kinda operating in your own reality with that one
[QUOTE=warriorfan;14945124]
Is this dude really trying to low key hype Jose Calderon.
:roll:
Ok man, you sold us, Bosh did not have “not enough help” in toronto. He was good. Him and Jose. Bosh just was an empty stat loser with no D.
Sounds legit.[/QUOTE]
Why does reasonably, and agendalessly, stating Calderon's strengths as a player in a natural response to something where he was already brought up rile you up so much?
Nobody said anything about Bosh having any sort of level of help or not help. That wasn't the discussion.
You've been doing this so long it truly doesn't seem like your mind lets you go into certain things without the layers of agenda clouding it.
[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14945133]Why does reasonably, and agendalessly, stating Calderon's strengths as a player in a natural response to something where he was already brought up rile you up so much?
Nobody said anything about Bosh having any sort of level of help or not help. That wasn't the discussion.
You've been doing this so long it truly doesn't seem like your mind lets you go into certain things without the layers of agenda clouding it.[/QUOTE]
I was insinuating Bosh didn’t have help in Toronto when mentioning Jose. This was pretty obvious.
When someone replies back about how Jose Calderon actually wasn’t that bad/underrated/whatever the ****, they are insinuating that he actually had more help than people think.
We all know Jose Calderon isn’t a needle mover, I don’t think anyone asked for a detailed Jose Calderon breakdown in this thread or particularly care, Jose was just an example of Bosh having shitty teams in Toronto. (I think all sane people can agree on that)