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[QUOTE=Hey Yo;14985078]He saw his contending days were done and faked AIDS. He thought it was better to quit than fade away gracefully.[/QUOTE]
:biggums:
I'm a conspiracy guy but I think you took it too far bro. He got HIV from all those wild LA Hollywood orgy parties in the 80s. It was basically a super STD.
And he probably had it for a while. Symptoms for that can show up 5 years later so Magic was literally balling out winning rings in the late 80s with AIDs. That's actually gangster. :lol
[QUOTE=tpols;14985081]:biggums:
I'm a conspiracy guy but I think you took it too far bro. He got HIV from all those wild LA Hollywood orgy parties in the 80s. It was basically a super STD.
And he probably had it for a while. Symptoms for that can show up 5 years later so Magic was literally balling out winning rings in the late 80s with AIDs. That's actually gangster. :lol[/QUOTE]
Yeah sleeping with other men…
[QUOTE=Hey Yo;14985067]Cause Magic didn't play defense[/QUOTE]
Of course he did
[QUOTE=GOBB;14985083]Yeah sleeping with other men…[/QUOTE]
He was beating them up on and off the court I guess.
[QUOTE=Chick Stern;14984970][b]Magic led the league in steals early in his career.[/b]
He was as lethal a competitor as anybody you can name, he just did it with a smile. Bird knew that.
He spent 75% of his career in the Finals. Literally NO player has ever done what he did in the Finals his rookie year.
People have him in the top 5 because he is. If not for the HIV he would be in the GOAT conversation.[/QUOTE]
Leading in steals doesn't make one a good defender. A lot of it is being in the right place on bad passes. Or if the statistician gives you credit for the steal once it was originally tapped away by a teammate.
[QUOTE=Hey Yo;14985071]:oldlol: ... no[/QUOTE]
Hes just saying that Magic led to leBron, an improved version.
[QUOTE=tpols;14985087]He was beating them up on and off the court I guess.[/QUOTE]
Actually I take that back. That was a weak cheap shot by me. No need to slander Magic name. 4th best player on NBA history in my book.
[QUOTE=Hey Yo;14985088]Leading in steals doesn't make one a good defender. A lot of it is being in the right place on bad passes. Or if the statistician gives you credit for the steal once it was originally tapped away by a teammate.[/QUOTE]
I think if you have the vision to make great passes you probably also have the vision to anticipate the passes others make too. Might not be a 100% thing but alot of great passers also are decent at getting into passing lanes too.
[QUOTE=tpols;14985057]It absolutely can be. Passing on the level of Magic or Jokic has absolutely tremendous impact on basketball games. I'm actually astonished that you don't realize that.[/QUOTE]And here we have you acting like one aspect of offense is just as inorganic as olajuwon being one of the greatest defenders of all time. Good talk.
Is 23 year old Anthony Edwards, Peak Jokic's kryptonite? Usually a player runs into their kryptonite in their early 20s. Like Jordan with the Pistons/celtics, Kobe with the Jazz, and Lebron with the Celtics/Pistons. Usually, top all-time players kryptonite's are veteran teams who just have much more experience than them. Is this the 1st time where its in reverse? Where the "top 4 player ever" get his ass routinely kicked by the 22 or 23 year old still wet behind the ears breath smelling like Similac kid?
[QUOTE=Bankaii;14984911]Jokic has had plenty of help lmao. Murray has series better than Penny has ever had (tempted to say Kobe too because of efficiency).
The championship nuggets had 6 guys average double figures. Murray outscored Jokic in half the series they played while averaging 47/40/93 shooting splits:oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Agreed. But it shows how he can elevate them too tho it doesn't happen always.
[B][size=1]The narcissistic sore loser below you is a deepthroating homosexual btw.[/b][/size]
[QUOTE=Mask the Embiid;14985888]Is 23 year old Anthony Edwards, Peak Jokic's kryptonite? Usually a player runs into their kryptonite in their early 20s. Like Jordan with the Pistons/celtics, Kobe with the Jazz, and Lebron with the Celtics/Pistons. Usually top all time players kryptonite's are veterans who just have much more experience than them. Is this the 1st time where its in reverse? Where the "top 4 player ever" get his ass routinely kicked by the 22 or 23 year old still wet behind the ears breath smelling like Similac?[/QUOTE]
Usually a player also makes it past the 2nd round by the time they're 30.
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14985891]Usually a player also makes it past the 2nd round by the time they're 30.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]https://athlonsports.com/.image/ar_4:3%2Cc_fill%2Ccs_srgb%2Cfl_progressive%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw_1200/MjA4NDgyNzM3NjU5NTg1ODQz/joel-embiid-gold-medal.jpg[/IMG]
They dont give those out in the 2nd round little fella
stay mad....
Look at your king without a 50/40/90 sidekick who scores 32 points....This is your king!? [B][SIZE=4]THIS IS YOUR KING!???[/SIZE][/B]
23 year old Temu Tmac whipping his ass. Dont you ever!!!!!!!!!! make a thread like this again
[QUOTE=Mask the Embiid;14985903][IMG]https://athlonsports.com/.image/ar_4:3%2Cc_fill%2Ccs_srgb%2Cfl_progressive%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw_1200/MjA4NDgyNzM3NjU5NTg1ODQz/joel-embiid-gold-medal.jpg[/IMG]
They dont give those out in the 2nd round little fella
stay mad....[/QUOTE]
Guy who wasn't even born in the US joins the most stacked Olympic team, then proceeds to not make a single field goal in the Gold medal game
[IMG]https://c.tenor.com/PLL_Hgq-ezsAAAAd/tenor.gif[/IMG]
[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14984732]Get Hakeem out of there bro. The others are fine.
Jokic has had the least amount of help by quite a bit out of these players, and it's magnified even more by him playing the the modern era where teams have a lot more flexibility to improve their rosters.[/QUOTE]
Hakeem had less help than Jokic on his back to back title run and he ran through young Shaq and Ewing in the finals.
Hakeem's Rockets and Kobe's Lakers had the least amount of help for any b2b champions in league history.
[QUOTE=stalkerforlife;14985940]Hakeem had less help than Jokic on his back to back title run and he ran through young Shaq and Ewing in the finals.
Hakeem's Rockets and Kobe's Lakers had the least amount of help for any b2b champions in league history.[/QUOTE]
:roll:
[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14985955]:roll:[/QUOTE]
Which part of that is funny? The Kobe claim is disingenuous because while historically that's true, he still had at worst the 2nd best supporting cast in the league when he was winning titles at the time. But Hakeem? 1994 just might be the weakest championship supporting cast ever, it's at worst top 3, and sure, past prime Drexler was still All-NBA caliber, but that would also be at the lower end of championship casts ever. Jokic's team with Murray putting up damn near superstar level production was certainly stronger.
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14985956]Which part of that is funny? The Kobe claim is disingenuous because while historically that's true, he still had at worst the 2nd best supporting cast in the league when he was winning titles at the time. But Hakeem? 1994 just might be the weakest championship supporting cast ever, it's at worst top 3, and sure, past prime Drexler was still All-NBA caliber, but that would also be at the lower end of championship casts ever. Jokic's team with Murray putting up damn near superstar level production was certainly stronger.[/QUOTE]
Well for one, I was referring to all the other players besides Hakeem in the original post, in which case Jokic definitely had less help.
I am laughing at even mentioning Hakeem/Kobe's peak in comparison to Jokic. It's just a conversation not worth having, Kobe/Hakeem's supporting casts are irrelevant.
Remember, Jokic has YET to have any all-nba or all-nba defensive teammates. NONE.
Jamal Murray has had a few fantastic playoff runs, but he still hasn't made an all-star team in the regular season at least...
[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14985957]Well for one, I was referring to all the other players besides Hakeem in the original post, in which case Jokic definitely had less help.
I am laughing at even mentioning Hakeem/Kobe's peak in comparison to Jokic. It's just a conversation not worth having, Kobe/Hakeem's supporting casts are irrelevant.
Remember, Jokic has YET to have any all-nba or all-nba defensive teammates. NONE.
Jamal Murray has had a few fantastic playoff runs, but he still hasn't made an all-star team in the regular season at least...[/QUOTE]
You are in the extreme minority if you genuinely don't believe Hakeem's peak is on par with Jokic's. Guy was averaging 30 ppg while playing DPOY caliber defense and destroying his contemporaries h2h in Ewing & Robinson. I frankly find it strange how much you downplay it.
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14985956]Which part of that is funny? [B]The Kobe claim is disingenuous because while historically that's true, he still had at worst the 2nd best supporting cast in the league when he was winning titles at the time[/B]. But Hakeem? 1994 just might be the weakest championship supporting cast ever, it's at worst top 3, and sure, past prime Drexler was still All-NBA caliber, but that would also be at the lower end of championship casts ever. Jokic's team with Murray putting up damn near superstar level production was certainly stronger.[/QUOTE]
Yea this has always been a weird one to me. Kobe having less help beating the Magic in 09 than Magic did beating the Celtics in 87 doesn't really mean anything.
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14985956]Which part of that is funny? The Kobe claim is disingenuous because while historically that's true, he still had at worst the 2nd best supporting cast in the league when he was winning titles at the time. But Hakeem? 1994 just might be the weakest championship supporting cast ever, it's at worst top 3, and sure, past prime Drexler was still All-NBA caliber, but that would also be at the lower end of championship casts ever. Jokic's team with Murray putting up damn near superstar level production was certainly stronger.[/QUOTE]
Taking Jamal Murray no question over Clyde Drexler is a wild ass take. Drexler had one of his best playoff runs in 1995 playoffs.
[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14985957]Well for one, I was referring to all the other players besides Hakeem in the original post, in which case Jokic definitely had less help.
I am laughing at even mentioning Hakeem/Kobe's peak in comparison to Jokic. It's just a conversation not worth having, Kobe/Hakeem's supporting casts are irrelevant.
Remember, Jokic has YET to have any all-nba or all-nba defensive teammates. NONE.
Jamal Murray has had a few fantastic playoff runs, but he still hasn't made an all-star team in the regular season at least...[/QUOTE]
I'm referring to back to back champions.
Out of all the repeat champions in league history, Hakeem had the least amount of help for any b2b champion. Kobe is 2nd behind Hakeem regarding the strength of supporting cast for b2b champions.
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14985958]You are in the extreme minority if you genuinely don't believe Hakeem's peak is on par with Jokic's. Guy was averaging 30 ppg while playing DPOY caliber defense and destroying his contemporaries h2h in Ewing & Robinson. I frankly find it strange how much you downplay it.[/QUOTE]
Ewing and Robinson would get destroyed by Jokic too. Again, whatever defensive advantage Hakeem has doesnt make up for the big gap in offense compared to Jokic.
Hakeem had a great peak, I just wouldn't put it top 5 all time. Jokic to me will easily have a "longer" peak than Hakeem's which matters a lot to me (just like Lebron's "peak" actually extends a long time).
[QUOTE=tpols;14985968]Taking Jamal Murray no question over Clyde Drexler is a wild ass take. Drexler had one of his best playoff runs in 1995 playoffs.[/QUOTE]
Murray led them in scoring in WCF and put up 32, 6, and 5 on 50, 40, 90 shooting.
[QUOTE=tpols;14985968]Taking Jamal Murray no question over Clyde Drexler is a wild ass take. Drexler had one of his best playoff runs in 1995 playoffs.[/QUOTE]
I will never understand the reverence you have for that playoff run, I can't even chalk it up to agenda. Drexler had a really good first round where he balled out in all their wins in that series. After that, he averaged 19/7/5 on 55%TS the rest of the playoffs.
Why you're under the impression this was some notable playoff run, and not a standard 2nd option performance, I for sure don't know. But yes, talking specifically how they performed in the playoff runs in question, not how they are as overall players, Murray performed better than Drexler did. I really don't see how you could dispute that.
[QUOTE=stalkerforlife;14985981]Murray led them in scoring in WCF and put up 32, 6, and 5 on 50, 40, 90 shooting.[/QUOTE]
Would he do that in the 90s much slower paced and defense oriented games? And without Jokics GOAT passing which boosts his game?
Clyde is one of the GOAT SGs and he was still prime in 1995. I can't even imagine what a talent like he was would do in today's spaced out era with way fewer great rim protectors. He was considered a slasher athlete on par with MJ.
I never thought I'd see the day Jamal Murray is considered hands down better than Clyde Drexler. This is a funny place.
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14985982]I will never understand the reverence you have for that playoff run, I can't even chalk it up to agenda. Drexler had a really good first round where he balled out in all their wins in that series. After that, he averaged 19/7/5 on 55%TS the rest of the playoffs.
Why you're under the impression this was some notable playoff run, and not a standard 2nd option performance, I for sure don't know. But yes, talking specifically how they performed in the playoff runs in question, not how they are as overall players, Murray performed better than Drexler did. I really don't see how you could dispute that.[/QUOTE]
It's silly to transpose statlines from one team and one era to another exactly. It's very commonly accepted that it's easier to get stats today than slugfest 90s so you'd have to adjust for that and the fact that Jokic is a much better passer and playmaker than Hakeem which helps Murray's offensive game. You're not even considering the tremendous context differences at all.
[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14985973]Ewing and Robinson would get destroyed by Jokic too. Again, whatever defensive advantage Hakeem has doesnt make up for the big gap in offense compared to Jokic.
Hakeem had a great peak, I just wouldn't put it top 5 all time. Jokic to me will easily have a "longer" peak than Hakeem's which matters a lot to me (just like Lebron's "peak" actually extends a long time).[/QUOTE]
You think Jokic is coming remotely close to limiting Robinson to 24 ppg on 45%, or Ewing to 19 ppg on 36%?
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;14985987]You think Jokic is coming remotely close to limiting Robinson to 24 ppg on 45%, or Ewing to 19 ppg on 36%?[/QUOTE]
Not quite as good as Hakeem would obviously, but Robinson and Ewing would get smoked even more on offense by Jokic.
Jokic is literally a better version of Larry Bird, and most people consider Bird already better than Hakeem..sooo...do the math buddy.
2023 Jokic: 31.2 PER, 63.1 TS%, .305 WS/48, 12.8 BPM
1994 Hakeem: 27.7 PER, 56.8 TS%, .208 WS/48, 8.5 BPM
Whatever advantage Hakeem has on defense isn't enough to make up for the gap above. Jokic is literally number 1 all time in a ton of advanced stats, even ahead of MJ/Lebron. He's simply better than Hakeem.
[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14985993]Not quite as good as Hakeem would obviously, but Robinson and Ewing would get smoked even more on offense by Jokic.
[B]Jokic is literally a better version of Larry Bird[/B], and most people consider Bird already better than Hakeem..sooo...do the math buddy.
2023 Jokic: 31.2 PER, 63.1 TS%, .305 WS/48, 12.8 BPM
1994 Hakeem: 27.7 PER, 56.8 TS%, .208 WS/48, 8.5 BPM
Whatever advantage Hakeem has on defense isn't enough to make up for the gap above. Jokic is literally number 1 all time in a ton of advanced stats, even ahead of MJ/Lebron. He's simply better than Hakeem.[/QUOTE]
I don't think you know what literally means. Bird is one of the greatest shooters and overall shot-makers who has ever done it. Jokic is not on that level in this area at all.
[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14986004]I don't think you know what literally means. Bird is one of the greatest shooters and overall shot-makers who has ever done it. Jokic is not on that level in this area at all.[/QUOTE]
Eh... Jokic is a GOAT big man shooter and scorer too. Scoring wise Bird wasn't actually nearly as efficient in the playoffs as Jokic even if you adjust for era efficiency and pace and everything. To say Bird is on another level as a scorer doesn't really add up.
[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14986004]I don't think you know what literally means. Bird is one of the greatest shooters and overall shot-makers who has ever done it. Jokic is not on that level in this area at all.[/QUOTE]
ARE YOU ****ING KIDDING ME????
Jokic is also one of the greatest shooters and overall shotmakers. You CLEARLY have never seen Jokic's shooting splits and shooting charts over the last few years. Have you forgotten all those circus three point bombs Jokic was dropping on AD/Lebron's heads in the playoffs? Literally insane and Jokic also has a similar high-release/shotput style like Bird.
Jokic is literally efficient scoring at all levels (rim, post, wings/elbows, long mid range, threes, free throws). Claiming Jokic can't shoot is like claiming Dirk can't shoot.
Shawk you are usually on point but your post is outstandingly ignorant. Jokic is way ahead of Bird in TS% and EFG%.
Cure yourself of ignorance and go look at Jokic's shooting splits.
Last 5 years right here: 3-10ft (60.8%), 10-16ft (50.7%), 16ft-3pt (49.2%), 3P (37.9%). Jokic is literally good everywhere.
Bird 84-88: 26.1 PER, 58.8 TS%, .237 WS/48, 8.7 BPM
Jokic 21-25: 31.8 PER, 66.3 TS%, .304 WS/48, 13.1 BPM
STOP SLEEPING ON JOKIC.
WTF is wrong with people. We are seeing a GOAT player in real time. It's like trying to downplay Lebron 10 years into his career. It's ridiculous.
[QUOTE=tpols;14986015]Eh... Jokic is a GOAT big man shooter and scorer too. Scoring wise Bird wasn't actually nearly as efficient in the playoffs as Jokic even if you adjust for era efficiency and pace and everything. To say Bird is on another level as a scorer doesn't really add up.[/QUOTE]
I didn't say as a total scorer. Just as a shooter.
[QUOTE=StrongLurk;14986018]ARE YOU ****ING KIDDING ME????
Jokic is also one of the greatest shooters and overall shotmakers. You CLEARLY have never seen Jokic's shooting splits and shooting charts over the last few years. Have you forgotten all those circus three point bombs Jokic was dropping on AD/Lebron's heads in the playoffs? Literally insane and Jokic also has a similar high-release/shotput style like Bird.
Jokic is literally efficient scoring at all levels (rim, post, wings/elbows, long mid range, threes, free throws). Claiming Jokic can't shoot is like claiming Dirk can't shoot.
Shawk you are usually on point but your post is outstandingly ignorant. Jokic is way ahead of Bird in TS% and EFG%.
Cure yourself of ignorance and go look at Jokic's shooting splits.
Last 5 years right here: 3-10ft (60.8%), 10-16ft (50.7%), 16ft-3pt (49.2%), 3P (37.9%). Jokic is literally good everywhere.[/QUOTE]
Jokic HEAVILY leverages the passing, spacing and ability to bully people inside when it comes to the shooting though. He has wonderful shot selection and a lot of the jumpers he takes are calculated based on what the defense is doing, which is primarily aimed at keeping him out of the paint.
Bird was often a complete avalanche scorer as a pure jump shooter despite efforts to prevent him from getting shots off. Jokic isn't defended the same way.
I'm not even saying Bird > Jokic. Just that there are definitely differences in the way they scored.
[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;14986027]Jokic HEAVILY leverages the passing, spacing and ability to bully people inside when it comes to the shooting though. He has wonderful shot selection and a lot of the jumpers he takes are calculated based on what the defense is doing, which is primarily aimed at keeping him out of the paint.
Bird was often a complete avalanche scorer as a pure jump shooter despite efforts to prevent him from getting shots off. Jokic isn't defended the same way.
I'm not even saying Bird > Jokic. Just that there are definitely differences in the way they scored.[/QUOTE]
If Bird was 7 feet, 280 pounds, then his play style would look just like Jokic's. The size difference accounts for the small differences is playstyle, but the actual skill set between the two is extremely similar, even their jump shooting form.
Since the 3-point line inception, Bird was the original best "scorer/passer/rebounder" combo player. Then Lebron came and took that title, albeit in a very different way. However Jokic is closer to Bird 2.0, and Jokic is now arguably the best "scorer/passer/rebounder" combo player ever at his peak.
.
[i]Extended demonstrations of goat-caliber[/I] are required to become GOAT, which is how MJ became the first and last consensus GOAT:
1) goat modern dynasty
2) multiple 3-peats
3) 72 wins + title
4) goat frequency of titles [U]and[/U] MVP's
5) goat MVP-caliber - i.e. MJ's MVP's had everything, while Lebron's MVP's lack titles, scoring title or DPOY
6) [url=https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1TOk40Kq-O4]universally-recognized[/url] as the goat competitor
7) carried the "star category" of scoring, thereby needing less star help and allowing more room to sign defenders - i.e. by carrying the scoring load in every season, series and Finals, MJ dominated [I]max defensive attention[/I] for his entire career, which is a caliber of dominance that no one else came anywhere near.
The mainstream media is a few hundred people, while Lebron's hardcore fans are a small percentage and no different than Kobe's - so aside from this small group of people, Lebron was never universally-recognized as GOAT like MJ is, specifically because his caliber was never goat caliber, as explained above, while also having bad labels like "colluder", "choker", "flopper" and losing reputation, i.e. he has losing records with every type of good teams, such as preseason favorites (3-4), all-star teammates (4-7), Finals teams (4-6), and 1 or 2 seeds (4-5), while also having a record 3 straight losses as the favorite from 09-11'.
[QUOTE=3ba11;14986042]MJ became goat by achieving extended demonstrations of [I]goat-caliber[/I] such as:
1) goat modern dynasty
2) multiple 3-peats
3) 72 wins + title
4) goat frequency of titles [U]and[/U] MVP's
5) goat MVP-caliber - i.e. MJ's MVP's had everything, while Lebron's MVP's lack titles, scoring title or DPOY
6) [url=https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1TOk40Kq-O4]universally-recognized[/url] as the goat competitor
7) carried the "star category" of scoring, thereby needing less star help and allowing more room to sign defenders - i.e. by carrying the scoring load in every season, series and Finals, MJ dominated [I]max defensive attention[/I] for his entire career, which is a caliber of dominance that no one else came anywhere near.
The mainstream media is a few hundred people, while Lebron's hardcore fans are a small percentage and no different than Kobe's - so aside from this small group of people, Lebron was never universally-recognized as GOAT like MJ was, specifically because his caliber was never goat caliber, as explained above, while also having bad labels like "colluder", "choker", and "flopper" and losing reputation, i.e. he has losing records with every type of good teams, such as preseason favorites (3-4), all-star teammates (4-7), Finals teams (4-6), 1 or 2 seeds (4-5), and a record 3 straight losses as the favorite from 09-11'.[/QUOTE]
My favorite pizza toppings are pepperoni and pineapple.
[QUOTE=Phoenix;14986045]I'm a passive-aggressive beta that wastes time playing dumb games on internet forums instead of furthering conversation and the human mind.. In short, I'm a waste of space :)[/QUOTE]
Got it.
Lebron was never universally-recognized as GOAT like MJ was, specifically because his caliber was never goat caliber, as explained above, while also having bad labels like "colluder", "choker", "flopper" and losing reputation, i.e. he has losing records with every type of good teams, such as preseason favorites (3-4), all-star teammates (4-7), Finals teams (4-6), 1 or 2 seeds (4-5), and a record 3 straight losses as the favorite from 09-11'.