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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
[QUOTE=3ba11;15022966]Love was All-NBA with 26 wins in 2012.
Tons of guys were All-NBA with 20-something wins, such as Mitch Richmond in 94' or 98'.
1st options can make All-NBA with bad teams because they dominate, while 2nd options need winning spotlight because they [I]don't[/I] dominate.[/QUOTE]
How are you defining tons? Because I named Tmac. You named Richmond and Love. That's not enough cases to establish it as a standard in the way you are.
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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
[QUOTE=3ba11;15022970]You're avoiding the differentiating factor that keeps being thrown in your face - 1st options get All-NBA because they dominate, regardless of the caliber of their team, while 2nd options don't dominate, so they need winning spotlight to get All-NBA, and often all-star as well.
And again, Love was All-NBA with 26 wins in 2012, or Tmac was All-NBA with 21 wins in 2002.. Tons of guys were All-NBA with 20-something wins, such as Mitch Richmond in 94' or 98'.
So again - 1st options can make All-NBA with bad teams because they dominate, while 2nd options need winning spotlight because they don't dominate.[/QUOTE]
And again, 3 guys isn't enough to say 'tons' of guys'. Tmac, Mitch Richmond and Kevin Love are outlier examples. Still waiting on an explanation for why Joe Dumars made the team in 93. No, it's not because he won the title in 1990 not dominant stats.
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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
[QUOTE=Phoenix;15022972]How are you defining tons? Because I named Tmac. You named Richmond and Love. That's not enough cases to establish it as a standard in the way you are.[/QUOTE]
You picked a 20-win criteria that I already busted up, but the reality is that I'm struggling to find any 2nd options that made All-NBA with even like 40 wins.. Otoh, tons and tons of 1st options have been All-NBA with 20-40 wins.. Tons and tons...
So again - 1st options can make All-NBA with bad teams because they dominate, while 2nd options need winning spotlight because they don't dominate.
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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
[QUOTE=3ba11;15022975]You picked a 20-win criteria that I already busted up, but the reality is that I'm struggling to find any 2nd options that made All-NBA with even like 40 wins.. Otoh, tons and tons of 1st options have been All-NBA with 20-40 wins.. Tons and tons...
So again - 1st options can make All-NBA with bad teams because they dominate, while 2nd options need winning spotlight because they don't dominate.[/QUOTE]
Actually I asked you how many guys have gotten all-nba, whether it be first or second options, on a 20 win team. There is a huge gap between 20 and 40 wins. That's literally the difference between like the worst team in the league and a borderline/8th seed. Citing Richmond, Love and TMac are outlier cases and not busting up anything with 'tons' of examples. You're saying you're struggling to find any 2nd options that made it with 40. Willis in 1992 on a 36 win Hawks team, Strickland in 1998( he was technically a third option) on a 42 win Bullets off the top of my head. Hell Tim Hardaway made third team in 93 on a 34 win Warriors team.
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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
There were 66 games in the 2012 season, so the Love example isn't legitimate. If they played 82 games they're likely winning 32-35 games, debunking the 20 win criteria.
And the fact Richmond was making All-NBA on multiple 20 win teams shows how pathetically weak the league was in the 90's.
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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
[QUOTE=3ba11;15023010]There are numerous 1st options that made All-NBA with 20-29 wins, but zero 2nd options that made All-NBA with these "basement" teams.
This shows that 2nd options require winning spotlight more, since they never made All-NBA with basement teams like 1st options have.. 2nd options simply never dominate enough to make All-NBA with basement teams.
Now when we look at 30-49 win teams, Kevin Willis and Rod Strickland appear to be the only 2nd options to make All-NBA, while dozens of 1st options made it... And it's important to note that Tim Hardaway was never considered a "2nd option" like Klay or Pippen because the 90's had several teams with 2 franchise players that shared the load, such as Kemp/Payton, Mullin/Hardaway, or Alonzo/Hardaway... So Hardaway was a 1st option or 1a/1b for the majority of his career and a major go-to player.. Therefore, Willis and Strickland are your only real examples of 2nd options at 30-49 wins, while dozens of 1st options made All-NBA at that level of wins.
TLDR: outside of defensive bigs, 2nd options need winning spotlight of around 50+ wins to make All-NBA, since the only examples of 2nd options making All-NBA at less than that are Strickland and Willis.... Again, aside from defensive centers, All-NBA players are 1st options, except a few 2nd options that get winning spotlight of generally 50+ wins (Klay, Pippen, Pau, Manu, etc).[/QUOTE]
Going back to 85, here's some 2nd options on teams that won 40 or less games:
86 Spurs 35 wins- [B]Alvin Robertson[/B] 2nd team
87 Nuggets 35 wins- [B]Fat Lever[/B] 2nd team
92 Hawks 38 wins- [B]Kevin Willis [/B]3rd team
96 Bullets 39 wins- [B]Juwan Howard[/B] 3rd team
97 Bucks 33 wins- [B]Vin Baker[/B] 3rd team
06 Rockets 34 wins- [B]Yao Ming[/B] 3rd team
You also have guys like [B]Derrick Coleman[/B](1993), Mutumbo (2002, more like 4th option), Andrew Bogot( 2010), [B]David Lee[/B]( 2013), Andre Drummond( 2016), [B]KAT[/B]( 2018 behind Butler), [B]D. Sabonis[/B]( 2023 and 2024) and Al Horford who made the third team on 43-48 win teams. There's no taking the league by storm 'winning spotlight' in these cases, the players were simply deemed worthy of all-nba on the merits of their play.
[B]Tim Hardaway[/B] was a 2nd option by how it's always defined. In fact, at one point he was third option behind Mullin and Richmond until the latter left for the Kings.
Now, beyond Tmac, Kevin Love( who SBT added the context that 2012 was a short year), and Richmond, I want to see the dozens of first options who made all-NBA winning 20 games or thereabouts. Because I'm not arguing that plenty of first options have made all-NBA with 40 wins, that's a low seed playoff seed. I want to see the tons of first option all-nba guys. I've provided a list of the 2nd option/40 win all-nba guys, now lets see your list of first option/20-25 win all-NBA guys.
Oh BTW, for your convenience I've bolded the players who wouldn't come under the definition of 'defensive big' ( not that this distinction matters).
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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
Damn bro, made him delete his post :lol
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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15023014]Damn bro, made him delete his post :lol[/QUOTE]
:oldlol: how unfortunate that I quoted him then :lol
All I want to see is this 'tons' of first option All-nba guys who won 20-30 games. Richmond on the Kings, Love (with the caveat that 2012 was shortened season), and I spotted him 2004 TMac.
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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
[QUOTE=tpols;15022967]Its a valid point though.[B] SGA isn't better than a bunch of guys who never won MVP talent wise.[/B] Hes a shorter, softer tmac. Which leads credence to the winning spotlight theory inflating peoples reps through whatever accolades. SGA just had a MJ level accolade run... but eye test it really wasnt on that level at all.[/QUOTE]
Well yeah, but he was first team all-NBA and 5th in MVP voting in 2023 on a 40 win OKC team. Seems he was on his way before the 'winning spotlight' kicked in.
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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15022651]3ball wanted no smoke[/QUOTE]
3ball's ego got the best of him once he saw this post and decided to respond.
It did not end well for him.
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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
[QUOTE=Phoenix;15023012]
Going back to 85, here's some 2nd options on teams that won 40 or less games:
86 Spurs 35 wins- [B]Alvin Robertson[/B] 2nd team
87 Nuggets 35 wins- [B]Fat Lever[/B] 2nd team
92 Hawks 38 wins- [B]Kevin Willis [/B]3rd team
96 Bullets 39 wins- [B]Juwan Howard[/B] 3rd team
97 Bucks 33 wins- [B]Vin Baker[/B] 3rd team
06 Rockets 34 wins- [B]Yao Ming[/B] 3rd team
You also have guys like [B]Derrick Coleman[/B](1993), Mutumbo (2002, more like 4th option), Andrew Bogot( 2010), [B]David Lee[/B]( 2013), Andre Drummond( 2016), [B]KAT[/B]( 2018 behind Butler), D. Sabonis( 2023 and 2024) and Al Horford who made the third team on 43-48 win teams. There's no taking the league by storm 'winning spotlight' in these cases, the players were simply deemed worthy of all-nba on the merits of their play.
[B]Tim Hardaway[/B] was a 2nd option by how it's always defined. In fact, at one point he was third option behind Mullin and Richmond until the latter left for the Kings.
Now, beyond Tmac, Kevin Love( who SBT added the context that 2012 was a short year), and Richmond, I want to see the dozens of first options who made all-NBA winning 20 games or thereabouts. Because I'm not arguing that plenty of first options have made all-NBA with 40 wins, that's a low seed playoff seed. I want to see the tons of first option all-nba guys. I've provided a list of the 2nd option/40 win all-nba guys, now lets see your list of first option/20-25 win all-NBA guys.
Oh BTW, for your convenience I've bolded the players who wouldn't come under the definition of 'defensive big' ( not that this distinction matters).[/QUOTE]
Derrick Coleman, Yao, Juwan Howard, Tim Hardaway, Vin Baker., and KAT were all 1st options or 1a/1b during their primes and when they got All-NBA - they weren't considered "pippens" or career 2nd options like Klay, Pippen, Manu and other 2nd options that required winning spotlight to get All-NBA.
And 47 wins alongside an upward-moving Curry is winning spotlight.. So the David Lee example supports my argument, not yours... 43 to 48 wins and playoff appearance is considered winning spotlight for young or surprise teams.
So your tiny handful of examples used 1st options, defensive centers, and winning teams.. You only found 4 examples over 40 seasons of real 2nd options that made All-NBA with weak teams (Willis, Strickland, Robertson, Lever)... Meanwhile, it's standard for 1st options to make All-NBA with weak teams of 30-40 wins, and they've even made it with 20-wins... So again, All-NBA status is reserved for 1st options regardless of team strength because they [I]dominate[/I], while 2nd options need winning spotlight to make it because they don't dominate.. It's intuitive.
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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
[QUOTE=3ba11;15023033]Derrick Coleman, Yao, Juwan Howard, Tim Hardaway, Vin Baker., and KAT were all 1st options or 1a/1b during their primes and when they got All-NBA - they weren't considered "pippens" or career 2nd options like Klay, Pippen, Manu and other 2nd options that required winning spotlight to get All-NBA.
And 47 wins alongside an upward-moving Curry is winning spotlight.. So the David Lee example supports my argument, not yours... 43 to 48 wins and playoff appearance is considered winning spotlight for young or surprise teams.
So your tiny handful of examples used 1st options, defensive centers, and winning teams.. You only found 4 examples over 40 seasons of real 2nd options that made All-NBA with weak teams (Willis, Strickland, Robertson, Lever)... Meanwhile, it's standard for 1st options to make All-NBA with weak teams of 30-40 wins, and they've even made it with 20-wins... So again, All-NBA status is reserved for 1st options regardless of team strength because they [I]dominate[/I], while 2nd options need winning spotlight to make it because they don't.[/QUOTE]
Derrick Coleman was 2nd option to Petrovic in 93. Yao to Tmac, Howard to Webber, Baker to Robinson and KAT to Butler for the years I said. Because they were first option in other years doesn't negate that they were 2nd during the years they made the all-NBA team. How could Tim Hardaway be 1B in 1991 when both Chris Mullin and Mitch Richmond scored more than him? In 1996 Mourning was 23ppg to Hardaways 17. In what world is that '1B'? By 2000 Mourning was 20ppg and Tim 13ppg. Tim was never the first option whether he played with Mullin and Richmond, Sprewell or Mourning.
43-47 win teams does not constitute 'winning spotlight' at all. There are some years where 43 wins doesn't even get you into the playoffs. Oh wait, like this years playoffs in the West. You clearly used that term in reference to like the 2015 Warriors winning 67 games. You're now stretching the 'winning spotlight' down into the 40's :roll: That's never NOT been considered a middle of the road team. So no, the David Lee example doesn't support your opinion but you know what's even funnier. You said an upward moving Curry in the same breadth, Curry didn't make all-NBA that year. :lol
[SIZE=6][B]Still waiting for your 'tons' of first options made all-NBA on 20-30 win teams' list.[/B][/SIZE]
Even you trying to dismiss some of my list I still have more examples. :lol And since you said before you couldn't think of ANY 2nd options on lower level teams getting all-NBA, I've already made my point because you were trying to argue that it was more or less non-existent.
Here's this years all-nba teams with team record
First:
Giannis Antetokounmpo (48)
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (67)
Nikola Jokić (50)
Donovan Mitchell (64)
Jayson Tatum (61)
Second:
Jalen Brunson (51)
Stephen Curry (48)
Anthony Edwards (49)
LeBron James (50)
Evan Mobley (67)
Third:
Cade Cunningham (44)
Tyrese Haliburton (50)
James Harden (50)
Karl-Anthony Towns (51)
Jalen Williams (67)
3ball: [I]"Meanwhile, it's standard for 1st options to make All-NBA with weak teams of 30-40 wins"[/I]
:oldlol:
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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
[QUOTE=Phoenix;15023040]Derrick Coleman was 2nd option to Petrovic in 93. Yao to Tmac, Howard to Webber, Baker to Robinson and KAT to Butler for the years I said. Because they were first option in other years doesn't negate that they were 2nd during the years they made the all-NBA team. How could Tim Hardaway be 1B in 1991 when both Chris Mullin and Mitch Richmond scored more than him? In 1996 Mourning was 23ppg to Hardaways 17. In what world is that '1B'? By 2000 Mourning was 20ppg and Tim 13ppg. Tim was never the first option whether he played with Mullin and Richmond, Sprewell or Mourning.
43-47 win teams does not constitute 'winning spotlight' at all. There are some years where 43 wins doesn't even get you into the playoffs. Oh wait, like this years playoffs in the West. You clearly used that term in reference to like the 2015 Warriors winning 67 games. You're now stretching the 'winning spotlight' down into the 40's :roll: That's never NOT been considered a middle of the road team. So no, the David Lee example doesn't support your opinion but you know what's even funnier. You said an upward moving Curry in the same breadth, Curry didn't make all-NBA that year. :lol
[SIZE=6][B]Still waiting for your 'tons' of first options made all-NBA on 20-30 win teams' list.[/B][/SIZE]
Even you trying to dismiss some of my list I still have more examples. :lol And since you said before you couldn't think of ANY 2nd options on lower level teams getting all-NBA, I've already made my point because you were trying to argue that it was more or less non-existent.
Here's this years all-nba teams with team record
First:
Giannis Antetokounmpo (48)
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (67)
Nikola Jokić (50)
Donovan Mitchell (64)
Jayson Tatum (61)
Second:
Jalen Brunson (51)
Stephen Curry (48)
Anthony Edwards (49)
LeBron James (50)
Evan Mobley (67)
Third:
Cade Cunningham (44)
Tyrese Haliburton (50)
James Harden (50)
Karl-Anthony Towns (51)
Jalen Williams (67)
3ball: [I]"Meanwhile, it's standard for 1st options to make All-NBA with weak teams of 30-40 wins"[/I]
:oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Again, all those guys are 1st options.. None of them are 2nd options like Klay or Pippen, so I'm fine taking the win on that... Ultimately, you provided 4 examples of 2nd options getting All-NBA with 20-40 win teams, while it's common for 1st options to get All-NBA with weak teams.. It's happened dozens of times for 1st options, but only 4 times for 2nd options.
So the point remains that 2nd options like Klay and Pippen need winning spotlight to get All-NBA - they wouldn't get anything if they were barely scraping 20 ppg and losing on the Wizards... They'd be like any bum 20 ppg scorer that doesn't get any accolades (i.e. Kuzma, tons of guys).
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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
[QUOTE=3ba11;15023049]Again, all those guys are 1st options.. None of them are 2nd options like Klay or Pippen, so I'm fine taking the win on that... Ultimately, you provided 4 examples of 2nd options getting All-NBA with 20-40 win teams, while it's common for 1st options to get All-NBA with weak teams.. It's happened dozens of times for 1st options, but only 4 times for 2nd options.
[B]So the point remains that 2nd options like Klay and Pippen need winning spotlight to get All-NBA - they wouldn't get anything if they were barely scraping 20 ppg and losing on the Wizards... They'd be like any bum 20 ppg scorer that doesn't get any accolades (i.e. Kuzma, tons of guys).[/B][/QUOTE]
:facepalm
You're welcome for the facepalm response. But..Jesus dude.
I respect your lack of shame I guess.
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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
[QUOTE=3ba11;15023049][B]So the point remains that 2nd options like Klay and Pippen need winning spotlight to get All-NBA[/B] - they wouldn't get anything if they were barely scraping 20 ppg and losing on the Wizards... They'd be like any bum 20 ppg scorer that doesn't get any accolades (i.e. Kuzma, tons of guys).[/QUOTE]
Pippen as a 1st option made All-NBA First Team and finished 3rd in MVP voting.
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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
[QUOTE=3ba11;15023049]Again, all those guys are 1st options.. None of them are 2nd options like Klay or Pippen, so I'm fine taking the win on that... Ultimately, you provided 4 examples of 2nd options getting All-NBA with losing teams, while it's common for 1st options to get All-NBA with 20-40 win teams.. It's happened dozens of times.
So the point remains that 2nd options like Klay and Pippen need winning spotlight to get All-NBA - they wouldn't get anything if they were barely scraping 20 ppg and losing on the Wizards... They'd be like any bum 20 ppg scorer that doesn't get no accolades (i.e. Kuzma).[/QUOTE]
Again, those players were 2nd options the years I mentioned for those all-NBA selections, so I'm fine taking the win as well. Ultimately you've only provided 1 example, Richmond, of first option all-NBA teamers on 20-30 wins teams so you saying there are tons of players and happened 'dozens of times' isn't anything you've substantiated. I spotted you Tmac, because you needed the boost. Love's all-nba on the Wolves in 2012 came during a lockout year so doesn't really count. So your list is only two as of now with 'dozens' or 'tons' of other examples you can't provide despite being asked multiple times, so I win simply by default. It doesn't matter if I had 4 examples, 10 examples, or 1 example, because you said this:
[QUOTE=3ba11;15022975]but the reality is that I'm struggling to find any 2nd options that made All-NBA with even like 40 wins
[/QUOTE]
Even with your flaccid attempts to discredit some of my list, 4 is still more than you've provided. Ultimately whats a 'real' 2nd option ain't up to you or what legitimizes someone on the all-NBA team that doesn't adhere to your 'first option' narrative. You can slice it anyway you like, defensive players, 2nd options...it doesn't matter. Guys like Bogut and Drummond were among the scoring leaders on their teams so being a 'defensive' big doesn't disqualify them. And don't' think I didn't notice your sleight of hand not mentioning Sabonis.
Oh by the way, since I showed above that every single member of the 2025 all-NBA team won at least 44 games this year, tomorrow I"m going to start dropping all-NBA teams going back several years. Let's see how 'common' first options getting all-NBA on sub 40 teams really is, per your comments.
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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
2024 All NBA teams
1st Team
Giannis Antetokounmpo (49)
Luka Dončić (50)
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (57)
Nikola Jokić (57)
Jayson Tatum (64)
2nd Team
Jalen Brunson (50)
Anthony Davis (47)
Kevin Durant (49)
Anthony Edwards (56)
Kawhi Leonard (51)
3rd Team
Devin Booker (49)
Stephen Curry (46)
Tyrese Haliburton (47)
LeBron James (47)
Domantas Sabonis (46)
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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
[QUOTE=Phoenix;15023066]2024 All NBA teams
1st Team
Giannis Antetokounmpo (49)
Luka Dončić (50)
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (57)
Nikola Jokić (57)
Jayson Tatum (64)
2nd Team
Jalen Brunson (50)
Anthony Davis (47)
Kevin Durant (49)
Anthony Edwards (56)
Kawhi Leonard (51)
3rd Team
Devin Booker (49)
Stephen Curry (46)
Tyrese Haliburton (47)
LeBron James (47)
Domantas Sabonis (46)[/QUOTE]
That only happened because of the winning spotlight.
And before you try to refute me...a second option CANNOT play the game in such a way, regardless of stats, that makes a team better. They're all garbage dudes getting carried.
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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
2023 All-NBA
Giannis Antetokounmpo (58)
[B]Luka Dončić (38) played 66 games[/B]
Joel Embiid (54)
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (40)
Jayson Tatum (57)
2nd Team
Jaylen Brown (57)
Jimmy Butler (44)
Stephen Curry (44)
Nikola Jokić (53)
Donovan Mitchell (51)
3rd Team
De'Aaron Fox (48)
LeBron James (43)
[B]Damian Lillard (33) played 58 games[/B]
Julius Randle (47)
Domantas Sabonis (48)
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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15023070]That only happened because of the winning spotlight.
And before you try to refute me...a second option CANNOT play the game in such a way, regardless of stats, that makes a team better. They're all garbage dudes getting carried.[/QUOTE]
:lol
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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
2022 All-NBA team
1st Team
Giannis Antetokounmpo (51)
Devin Booker (64)
Luka Dončić (52)
Nikola Jokić (48)
Jayson Tatum (51)
2nd Team
Stephen Curry (53)
DeMar DeRozan (46)
Kevin Durant (44)
Joel Embiid (51)
Ja Morant (56)
3rd Team
[B] LeBron James (33) played 56 games[/B]
Chris Paul (64)
Pascal Siakam (48)
Karl-Anthony Towns (46)
Trae Young (43)
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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
2021 all-nba [B]( 72 game season)[/B]
1st Team
Giannis Antetokounmpo (46)
[B]Stephen Curry (39) played 63 games[/B]
Luka Dončić (42)
Nikola Jokić (47)
Kawhi Leonard
2nd Team
Joel Embiid (49)
LeBron James (42)
Damian Lillard (42)
Chris Paul (51)
Julius Randle (41)
3rd Team
[B]Bradley Beal (34) played 60 games[/B]
Jimmy Butler (40)
Paul George (47)
Rudy Gobert (52)
Kyrie Irving (46)
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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
So of the last 5 all-NBA teams, the only players first option, second option, defensive player, whatever....who didn't win 40 games were:
2023:
Luka who missed 16 games and won 38
Dame who missed 24 games and won 33
2022:
Lebron who missed 26 games and won 33
2021( 72 game season):
Steph who missed 9 games but the final record was 39-33 so a winning season regardless
Beal who missed 12 games and won 34, averaged 31.3 so no way he's not getting voted in
Suffice to say, Richmond playing 78 games and winning 27 like he did in 94 ain't getting an all-NBA nod nowadays. 2004 Tmac winning 21 ain't cutting it either.
Oh BTW, can someone please give Jamal Murray some winning spotlight love FFS? Dude averages 20+ every season, 26 on a title run, team wins 50 games practically every year and he can't even get into the all-star game?:confusedshrug:
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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
.
.
[size=4]All-NBA selections that won 20-40 games since 1980 (2nd options in bold)[/size]
[indent]1980 Dantley - 24 wins
1981 Dantley - 28 wins
1982 Dantley - 25 wins
1983 Isiah - 37 wins
1985 Jordan - 37 wins
[B]1986 Robertson - 35 wins[/B]
[B]1987 Lever - 37 wins [/B]
1990 Mullin - 37 wins
1991 King - 30 wins
[B]1992 Willis - 34 wins[/B]
1993 Hardaway - 34 wins
1994 Dominique - 27 wins
1994 Richmond - 27 wins
1998 Richmond - 28 wins
1995 Richmond - 39 wins
1996 Richmond - 39 wins
1997 Richmond - 34 wins
2000 Marbury - 31 wins
2004 McGrady - 21 wins
2005 Lebron - 35 wins
[B]2012 Chandler - 36 wins[/B]
2012 Melo - 36 wins
2012 Love - 26 wins
2012 Dwight - 37 wins
2015 Cousins - 29 wins
2016 Cousins - 33 wins
2017 AD - 34 wins
2019 Kemba - 39 wins
2020 Lillard - 35 wins
2023 Luka - 38 wins[/indent]
[B]CONCLUSION[/B]: 2nd options need winning teams to make All-NBA, with only 4 exceptions in 40 years.. They need winning spotlight to be seen as All-NBA because their dominance isn't enough on it's own.. Otoh, 1st options routinely dominate enough to make All-NBA with losing teams... Essentially, All-NBA is reserved for 1st options, unless a secondary option has sufficient winning spotlight.
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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
[QUOTE=3ba11;15023090].
.
[size=4]All-NBA selections that won 20-40 games since 1980 (2nd options in bold)[/size]
1980 Dantley - 24 wins [B][SIZE=4]Didn't make all-nba team that year[/SIZE][/B]
1981 Dantley - 28 wins
1982 Dantley - 25 wins [B][SIZE=4]Didn't make all-nba team that year[/SIZE][/B]
[B]1983 Isiah - [/B]37 wins 2nd option at 22.9ppg, first option was Kelly Tripucka at 26.5ppg. Argument for me :bowdown:
1985 Jordan - 37 wins
[B]1986 Robertson - 35 wins[/B]
[B]1987 Lever - 37 wins [/B]
1990 Mullin - 37 wins
1991 King - 30 wins [B]missed 18 games[/B]
[B]1992 Willis - 34 wins[/B]
[B]1993 Hardaway [/B]- 34 wins
1994 Dominique - 27 wins [B][SIZE=4]played 49 games for Hawks, and 25 games for the Clippers, won 42 between the two teams.[/SIZE] [/B]:oldlol:
1994 Richmond - 27 wins
1998 Richmond - 28 wins
1995 Richmond - 39 wins
1996 Richmond - 39 wins
1997 Richmond - 34 wins
2000 Marbury - 31 wins
2004 McGrady - 21 wins
2005 Lebron - 35 wins [B[SIZE=4]]Cavs won 42 games in 2005[/SIZE][/B]
[B]2012 Chandler - 36 wins[/B] [B][SIZE=4]lockout year,thanks for including him as a defensive big, argument for me[/SIZE][/B]
2012 Melo - 36 wins [B][SIZE=4]lockout year[/SIZE][/B]
2012 Love - 26 wins [B][SIZE=4]lockout year[/SIZE][/B]
2012 Dwight - 37 wins missed 28 games, would have easily won 40+ otherwise
2015 Cousins - 29 wins [B]missed 23 games[/B]
2016 Cousins - 33 wins
2017 AD - 34 wins
2019 Kemba - 39 wins
2020 Lillard - 35 wins [B][SIZE=4]lockdown, suspended season[/SIZE][/B]
2023 Luka - 38 wins [B]missed 16 games or would have won 40+
[/B]
[B]CONCLUSION[/B]: 2nd options need winning teams to make All-NBA, with only 4 exceptions in 40 years.. They need winning spotlight to be seen as All-NBA because their dominance isn't enough on it's own.. Otoh, 1st options routinely dominate enough to make All-NBA with losing teams... Essentially, All-NBA is reserved for 1st options, unless a secondary option has sufficient winning spotlight.[/QUOTE]
So let's see:
- You lied about Adrian Dantley, he didn't make all-NBA in 80 and 82. Off the list those years
- Isiah was 2nd option to Tripucka in 83, so that argument works for me thanks
- Dominique won 42 wins in 94 per basketball reference, playing 25 for the Clips and 49 for ATL. Nice try, he's off the list.:oldlol:
- Lebron won 42 games in 2004-2005. The 35 wins you're giving his is for his rookie year. Off the list :oldlol:
- 2012 Chandler is a defensive big,so since you count him you've legitimized guys like Bogut, Drummond, Mutumbo, Horford, thanks
- 2012 is also a asterisk year due to lockout, 66 game season but the Knicks were 36-30 so Melo/Chandler had a winning season that year. Nice try
- Dwight missed 28 games and missed out on 40 wins by 3 games.
- 2020 was a shortened season due to lockdowns, asterisk
- Luka missed out on 40 wins by 2 wins, missing 16 games
[B]CONCLUSION[/B]: You lied about Adrian Dantley in 1980 and 82 being all-NBA those years, Isiah was 2nd option to Tripucka in 83, lied about 94 Nique who got 42 total wins playing for both the Hawks( 49) and the Clippers( 25) and you sneakily gave him the Clips 27 win total when he didn't even play that many games for LA :oldlol:, lied about Lebron giving his rookie win total of 35 wins instead of 42 in 2005 when he made 2nd team, ignore that 2012 was a 66 game lockout year and then pretend like Melo and Chandler didn't have a winning record at 36/30, 2020 was pandemic year shortened season, and Luka wins 40+ if he didn't miss 16 games.
So, your actual list of first options for which you didn't lie( 80 and 82 Dantley, 94 Wilkins, 05 Lebron), not note legit asterisks for why a player wouldn't have easily broke 40 wins( Luka 2023) if not for serious time missed to injury or shortened seasons( Melo 2012, Dame 2020), meaning the player played the majority of the year and wouldn't have gotten 40 wins because the team just was that bad/mediocre:
- Adrian Dantley 82
- Jordan 85
- Mullin 90
- Richmond 94-98( which is actually one player just getting in multiple times instead of multiple players, but I'll play along)'
- Maybury 2000
- Tmac 2004
- Cousins 2015
- Cousins 2016 [B]won 33 whlle missing 17, but we'll let that one slip[/B]
- AD 2017
- Kemba 2020
That's very far from there being 'tons' of first options who made all-nba with 20-40 wins, and that's if you include players who missed 16-28 games and act like they wouldn't have won 40 games in some cases,weren't impacted by lockout, or ignore that a few players happened to benefit from periods of weak positional competition ( Richmond winning 27 games, for example) that largely wouldn't fly today. Heaps of context needed here that you conveniently omit.
OTOH 83 Isiah can now be added to my list of non-first option players so you'll appreciate me bolding him, who made all-NBA without 'winning spotlight' inflation like 85 Alvin Robertson,87 Fat Lever, 92 Kevin Willis, 93 Derrick Coleman, 93 Hardaway( bolded him as well for your convenience),96 Juwan Howard,97 Vin Baker, 98 Rod Strickland, 02 Mutumbo( defensive centric big like CHandler), 06 Yao Ming, 2013 David Lee, 2016 Andre Drummond( defensive big like Chandler), 2018 KAT, 2011 Horford( defensive big like CHandler), 2023/2024 Sabonis. These players were either 2nd option/scorer for the years I listed, or 2nd/3rd best player like a Mutumbo or Strickland type BUT more specifically, were not the defacto first options for those years. If they were definitive first option in other years, like Coleman in 94, doesn't dismiss that he was 2nd option to Petrovic in 93. Furthermore the lists provided here by both of us, regardless of how certain players are described for the purpose of our respective arguments, show recent voting patterns clearly indicating that players getting all-NBA whether they be first or 2nd option on sub 40 win teams is becoming even less common in recent years, let alone over history. The historical record of the past 5 seasons as I listed shows that outside of Luka in 2023 getting 38 wins while missing 16 games, Kemba in 2019, and 2020 Dame in a lockout year, the voters aren't handing out all-NBA awards like candy to sub 40 win players. There's no Mitch Richmonds getting all-nba for 27 wins in the year 2025, not when over the past 5-6 years Devin Booker has seasons averaging 26-28 on 50 win teams and doesn't touch all-NBA.
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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
Can't believe 3ball really used 2012, does he not know it was a lockout year?
And lying about Dantley making All-NBA in '80 & '82.
This is why nobody takes him seriously.
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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15023143]Can't believe 3ball really used 2012, does he not know it was a lockout year?
And lying about Dantley making All-NBA in '80 & '82.
This is why nobody takes him seriously.[/QUOTE]
Of course he knows. He also knows 2020 was the suspended covid year. And he knows Nique played for both the Hawks and Clippers in 94, but thought he'd use the Clippers win total of 27( hilarious because he didn't even play that many games for the Clippers that year) and hoped no-one would notice. These aren't errors, they're blatant lies or just disingenuous trolling.
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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
His threads all go to shit with even low effort fact checking. Theres wrong numbers and claims in every single post. Who' the hell signs up to look like such an idiot for such a high volume of posts?
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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
[QUOTE=Phoenix;15023145]Of course he knows. He also knows 2020 was the suspended covid year. And he knows Nique played for both the Hawks and Clippers in 94, but thought he'd use the Clippers win total of 27( hilarious because he didn't even play that many games for the Clippers that year) and hoped no-one would notice. These aren't errors, they're blatant lies or just disingenuous trolling.[/QUOTE]
There are a number of reasons 3ball is a fakkit, but besides the repetitiveness of the topic, it's the fact he just shamelessly lies in so many of his posts. It's bitch made behavior.
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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
[QUOTE=Phoenix;15023066]2024 All NBA teams
1st Team
Giannis Antetokounmpo (49)
Luka Dončić (50)
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (57)
Nikola Jokić (57)
Jayson Tatum (64)
2nd Team
Jalen Brunson (50)
Anthony Davis (47)
Kevin Durant (49)
Anthony Edwards (56)
Kawhi Leonard (51)
3rd Team
Devin Booker (49)
Stephen Curry (46)
Tyrese Haliburton (47)
LeBron James (47)
Domantas Sabonis (46)[/QUOTE]
All of the perimeter players on this list are clearly better than prime Klay. I would've said it was close with Haliburton but after his playoff run hell nah. Klay never came close to doing the shit he did over and over and over. So he wouldn't have made All NBA in that year.
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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
[QUOTE=tpols;15023151]All of the perimeter players on this list are clearly better than prime Klay. I would've said it was close with Haliburton but after his playoff run hell nah. Klay never came close to doing the shit he did over and over and over. So he wouldn't have made All NBA in that year.[/QUOTE]
Is that something you felt the need to just say for your sake :confusedshrug:? Because Klay has nothing to do with why I dropped that list.
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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
[QUOTE=tpols;15023151]All of the perimeter players on this list are clearly better than prime Klay. I would've said it was close with Haliburton but after his playoff run hell nah. Klay never came close to doing the shit he did over and over and over. So he wouldn't have made All NBA in that year.[/QUOTE]
And Pippen was without question a top 10 player throughout the 90's, making 3ball's entire premise moot. Considering Richmond was making All-NBA multiple times on sub 30 win teams, it's safe to say Pippen would've been a perennial All-NBA player regardless of where he played.
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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15023143]Can't believe 3ball really used 2012, does he not know it was a lockout year?
And lying about Dantley making All-NBA in '80 & '82.
This is why nobody takes him seriously.[/QUOTE]
^^^ Impact-less oversights, so the point stands that 2nd options need winning teams to make All-NBA, with only 4 exceptions in 40 years..
2nd options need winning spotlight to be seen as All-NBA because their performance isn't enough on it's own.. Otoh, 1st options routinely make All-NBA with losing teams because they dominate... Essentially, All-NBA is reserved for 1st options and their dominance, unless a secondary option has sufficient winning spotlight
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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
[QUOTE=3ba11;15023165]^^^ Impact-less oversights, so the point stands that 2nd options need winning teams to make All-NBA, with only 4 exceptions in 40 years..
2nd options need winning spotlight to be seen as All-NBA because their performance isn't enough on it's own.. Otoh, 1st options routinely make All-NBA with losing teams because they dominate... Essentially, All-NBA is reserved for 1st options, unless a secondary option has sufficient winning spotlight[/QUOTE]
You got caught lying son. You lost.
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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15023166]You got caught lying son. You lost.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I'm not 5 so that's not going to work.. I won the argument regarding 2nd options needing winning teams to make All-NBA - [I]it's the historical record[/I].. And thanks for summarizing 'Phoenix's edits (to the list of All-NBA players that won 20-40 games)
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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
[QUOTE=3ba11;15023167]Yeah I'm not 5 so that's not going to work.. I won the argument regarding 2nd options needing winning teams to make All-NBA - [I]it's the historical record[/I].. And thanks for summarizing 'Phoenix's edits (to the list of All-NBA players that won 20-40 games)[/QUOTE]
Um,no. Me arguing with you over what's a first or 2nd option isn't a lie. You putting Adrian Dantley on all-NBA teams he was never on, or using Lebron's rookie season win total are not 'impactless' oversights. You lied, multiple times, and it's all there for everyone to see. So you haven't won anything, neither the basis of your content or the fact that you tried to extend your list with blatantly false info and trying pass it off as 'harmless oversight'. You're just a straight up bitch.
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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
[QUOTE=Phoenix;15023170]Um,no. Me arguing with you over what's a first or 2nd option isn't a lie. You putting Adrian Dantley on all-NBA teams he was never on, or using Lebron's rookie season win total are not 'impactless' oversights. You lied, multiple times, and it's all there for everyone to see. So you haven't won anything, neither the basis of your content or the fact that you tried to extend your list with blatantly false info and trying pass it off as 'harmless oversight'. You're just a straight up bitch.[/QUOTE]
Four 2nd options in 45 years made All-NBA with losing teams... That's what matters - 2nd options need winning spotlight to make All-NBA.
And Isiah is a 1st option by virtue of being one for his entire career - he isn't a "pippen" or "klay", and this is common knowledge..
Infact, Klay and Pippen needed 67-win teams and league favorite to make their first All-NBA - the subsequent titles gave them the permanent winning spotlight that Parker, Ginobili and Pau enjoyed to get their All-NBA selections as well.. The idea is to trick the dumb media by landing alongside a goat 1st option that can carry you to titles - the historical and statistical record shows that this is what these winning 2nd options did to make All-NBA.
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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
.
.
.
[SIZE=4]REVISED LIST of All-NBA selections w/ losing teams (40 wins or less), since 1980 (2nd options bolded[/SIZE]
[indent]1981 Dantley - 28 wins
1983 Isiah - 37 wins
1985 Jordan - 37 wins
[B]1986 Robertson - 35 wins[/B]
[B]1987 Lever - 37 wins [/B]
1990 Mullin - 37 wins
1991 King - 30 wins
[B]1992 Willis - 34 wins[/B]
1993 Hardaway - 34 wins
1994 Richmond - 27 wins
1998 Richmond - 28 wins
1995 Richmond - 39 wins
1996 Richmond - 39 wins
1997 Richmond - 34 wins
2000 Marbury - 31 wins
2004 McGrady - 21 wins
2004 Lebron - 35 wins
2015 Cousins - 29 wins
2016 Cousins - 33 wins
2017 AD - 34 wins
2019 Kemba - 39 wins
2020 Lillard - 35 wins
2023 Luka - 38 wins[/indent]
[B]CONCLUSION[/B]: 2nd options need winning teams to make All-NBA, with only 4 exceptions in 40 years..
2nd options need winning spotlight to be seen as All-NBA because their performance isn't enough on it's own.. Otoh, 1st options routinely make All-NBA with losing teams because they dominate... Essentially, All-NBA is reserved for 1st options and their dominance, unless a secondary option has sufficient winning spotlight.
Finally, if we run the numbers for 40-50 win teams, there are only a half dozen examples of 2nd options getting All-NBA with these records - infact, Klay and Pippen needed 67-win teams and league favorite to make their first All-NBA - the subsequent titles gave them the permanent winning spotlight that Parker, Ginobili and Pau enjoyed to get their All-NBA selections as well.. The idea is to trick the dumb media by landing alongside a goat 1st option that can carry you to titles - the historical and statistical record shows that this is what these winning 2nd options did to make All-NBA
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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
[QUOTE=3ba11;15023173]Four 2nd options in 45 years made All-NBA with losing teams... That's what matters - 2nd options need winning spotlight to make All-NBA.
And Isiah is a 1st option by virtue of being one for his entire career - he isn't a "pippen" or "klay", and this is common knowledge..
Infact, Klay and Pippen needed 67-win teams and league favorite to make their first All-NBA - the subsequent titles gave them the permanent winning spotlight that Parker, Ginobili and Pau enjoyed to get their All-NBA selections as well.. The idea is to trick the dumb media by landing alongside a goat 1st option that can carry you to titles - the historical and statistical record shows that this is what these winning 2nd options did to make All-NBA.[/QUOTE]
Nah my list is in the dozens, and I invalidated multiple parts of yours with your lying. You're a conniving little bitch who needs to validate yourself with self-congratulatory 'I won something' rhetoric. If you weren't micro-dicked I'm sure you'd suck yourself off and then claim it as sex.
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Re: +2800 roster and sidekick < Hornacek, so 73 wins means CURRY is goat-like, not le
[QUOTE=3ba11;15023175].
.
.
[SIZE=4]REVISED LIST of All-NBA selections w/ losing teams (40 wins or less), since 1980 (2nd options bolded[/SIZE]
[indent]1981 Dantley - 28 wins
1983 Isiah - 37 wins
1985 Jordan - 37 wins
[B]1986 Robertson - 35 wins[/B]
[B]1987 Lever - 37 wins [/B]
1990 Mullin - 37 wins
1991 King - 30 wins
[B]1992 Willis - 34 wins[/B]
1993 Hardaway - 34 wins
1994 Richmond - 27 wins
1998 Richmond - 28 wins
1995 Richmond - 39 wins
1996 Richmond - 39 wins
1997 Richmond - 34 wins
2000 Marbury - 31 wins
2004 McGrady - 21 wins
2004 Lebron - 35 wins
2015 Cousins - 29 wins
2016 Cousins - 33 wins
2017 AD - 34 wins
2019 Kemba - 39 wins
2020 Lillard - 35 wins
2023 Luka - 38 wins[/indent]
[B]CONCLUSION[/B]: 2nd options need winning teams to make All-NBA, with only 4 exceptions in 40 years..
2nd options need winning spotlight to be seen as All-NBA because their performance isn't enough on it's own.. Otoh, 1st options routinely make All-NBA with losing teams because they dominate... Essentially, All-NBA is reserved for 1st options and their dominance, unless a secondary option has sufficient winning spotlight.
Finally, if we run the numbers for 40-50 win teams, there are only a half dozen examples of 2nd options getting All-NBA with these records - infact, Klay and Pippen needed 67-win teams and league favorite to make their first All-NBA - the subsequent titles gave them the permanent winning spotlight that Parker, Ginobili and Pau enjoyed to get their All-NBA selections as well.. The idea is to trick the dumb media by landing alongside a goat 1st option that can carry you to titles - the historical and statistical record shows that this is what these winning 2nd options did to make All-NBA[/QUOTE]
So let's see:
- You lied about Adrian Dantley, he didn't make all-NBA in 80 and 82. Off the list those years
- Isiah was 2nd option to Tripucka in 83, so that argument works for me thanks
- Dominique won 42 wins in 94 per basketball reference, playing 25 for the Clips and 49 for ATL. Nice try, he's off the list.
- Lebron won 42 games in 2004-2005. The 35 wins you're giving his is for his rookie year. Off the list
- 2012 Chandler is a defensive big,so since you count him you've legitimized guys like Bogut, Drummond, Mutumbo, Horford, thanks
- 2012 is also a asterisk year due to lockout, 66 game season but the Knicks were 36-30 so Melo/Chandler had a winning season that year. Nice try
- Dwight missed 28 games and missed out on 40 wins by 3 games.
- 2020 was a shortened season due to lockdowns, asterisk
- Luka missed out on 40 wins by 2 wins, missing 16 games
CONCLUSION: You lied about Adrian Dantley in 1980 and 82 being all-NBA those years, Isiah was 2nd option to Tripucka in 83, lied about 94 Nique who got 42 total wins playing for both the Hawks( 49) and the Clippers( 25) and you sneakily gave him the Clips 27 win total when he didn't even play that many games for LA , lied about Lebron giving his rookie win total of 35 wins instead of 42 in 2005 when he made 2nd team, ignore that 2012 was a 66 game lockout year and then pretend like Melo and Chandler didn't have a winning record at 36/30, 2020 was pandemic year shortened season, and Luka wins 40+ if he didn't miss 16 games.
So, your actual list of first options for which you didn't lie( 80 and 82 Dantley, 94 Wilkins, 05 Lebron), not note legit asterisks for why a player wouldn't have easily broke 40 wins( Luka 2023) if not for serious time missed to injury or shortened seasons( Melo 2012, Dame 2020), meaning the player played the majority of the year and wouldn't have gotten 40 wins because the team just was that bad/mediocre:
- Adrian Dantley 82
- Jordan 85
- Mullin 90
- Richmond 94-98( which is actually one player just getting in multiple times instead of multiple players, but I'll play along)'
- Maybury 2000
- Tmac 2004
- Cousins 2015
- Cousins 2016 won 33 whlle missing 17, but we'll let that one slip
- AD 2017
- Kemba 2020
That's very far from there being 'tons' of first options who made all-nba with 20-40 wins, and that's if you include players who missed 16-28 games and act like they wouldn't have won 40 games in some cases,weren't impacted by lockout, or ignore that a few players happened to benefit from periods of weak positional competition ( Richmond winning 27 games, for example) that largely wouldn't fly today. Heaps of context needed here that you conveniently omit.
OTOH 83 Isiah can now be added to my list of non-first option players so you'll appreciate me bolding him, who made all-NBA without 'winning spotlight' inflation like 85 Alvin Robertson,87 Fat Lever, 92 Kevin Willis, 93 Derrick Coleman, 93 Hardaway( bolded him as well for your convenience),96 Juwan Howard,97 Vin Baker, 98 Rod Strickland, 02 Mutumbo( defensive centric big like CHandler), 06 Yao Ming, 2013 David Lee, 2016 Andre Drummond( defensive big like Chandler), 2018 KAT, 2011 Horford( defensive big like CHandler), 2023/2024 Sabonis. These players were either 2nd option/scorer for the years I listed, or 2nd/3rd best player like a Mutumbo or Strickland type BUT more specifically, were not the defacto first options for those years. If they were definitive first option in other years, like Coleman in 94, doesn't dismiss that he was 2nd option to Petrovic in 93. Furthermore the lists provided here by both of us, regardless of how certain players are described for the purpose of our respective arguments, show recent voting patterns clearly indicating that players getting all-NBA whether they be first or 2nd option on sub 40 win teams is becoming even less common in recent years, let alone over history. The historical record of the past 5 seasons as I listed shows that outside of Luka in 2023 getting 38 wins while missing 16 games, Kemba in 2019, and 2020 Dame in a lockout year, the voters aren't handing out all-NBA awards like candy to sub 40 win players. There's no Mitch Richmonds getting all-nba for 27 wins in the year 2025, not when over the past 5-6 years Devin Booker has seasons averaging 26-28 on 50 win teams and doesn't touch all-NBA.