09' Mo outproduced 16' Klay

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Thread Cliffs

09' Lebron enjoyed better statistical production from his high usage/high ppg teammates (sidekick) than 16' Curry got from his sidekick.

However, Curry got slightly more production from replaceable [I]low[/I] usage players, due to the equitable, ball movement system that his skillset allows... Systems are meant to boost the role players, and Curry's skillet allows such a system.. Every dynasty used a ball movement system that required an all-time off-ball player like Curry, Duncan, Shaq or MJ.

Ultimately, the 09' Cavs, 16' Warriors and 07' Mavs were 1-man teams that got upset in the playoffs.. The were also upset [U]by[/U] 1-man teams (Dwight, Baron), except Lebron's big 3 preseason favorite super-teams (16' Cavs).

If had to choose.... no team in the league would take Mo in their starting line-up for their upcoming 2010 season compared to Klay for their 2017 season.

Mo made 35 3pt'ers in 2009

Klay made 276 in 2016


[I]Mo was better[/I] :roll:

[QUOTE=3ba11;15028826]Klay destroys Mo[/QUOTE]

Correct.

[QUOTE=Hey Yo;15028916]If had to choose.... no team in the league would take Mo in their starting line-up for their upcoming 2010 season compared to Klay for their 2017 season.

Mo made 35 3pt'ers in 2009

Klay made 276 in 2016


[I]Mo was better[/I] :roll:[/QUOTE]


Relative to the league in 2009 (before the 3-point boom), Mo was a top 3 shooter in the league based on 3-point makes and efficiency

This is why he provided more help than Klay based on BPM, WS/48 and VORP

Btw, Lebron is a guy that needs MAJOR playmaking help, so Mo fit the bill, while Klay was trash - he doesn't pass or get to the line, so he lacks the sophistication of Mo

Injuries destroyed Mo's career, but Lebron still got the best Mo (> Klay) and they were an OKC level favorite vs 1-star team in 09'.. Unfortunately, excessive ball-domination can't beat top teams, so Lebron can't carry the scoring load against top teams... Accordingly, he needs more than 18 on 38% (pippen level) - he needs all-time scorers like Wade, Kyrie, AD

And the cherry on top is that Mo arrived on a 45-win team in 2009, but his spacing elevated Lebron's stats and game to 66 wins. . He taught everyone that LeDrive needs spacing to play his best and MVP caliber.. Otoh, great jumpshooters like MJ, SGA, Kobe and Curry can shoot over packed paints, so they can win with bad spacing/three-pt shooting... Accordingly, LeDrive's need for spacing is a weakness

[video=youtube;K_9gGorAfqI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_9gGorAfqI[/video]

[video=youtube;-SPjJ197oKE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=-SPjJ197oKE[/video]

With the season on the line Mo could never.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15028938][video=youtube;-SPjJ197oKE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=-SPjJ197oKE[/video]

With the season on the line Mo could never.[/QUOTE]

Yeah bron would freeze him out if he started getting that hot. Bron would rather lose than give his teammates any shine, see 2011

If we replaced 09' Mo with Klay, then Lebron would still need an [I]additional player[/I] because the Cavs would have no secondary ball-handler after Lebron and Lebron needs a lot of playmaking help.. It's easy to forget that Jeff McGinnis led the Cavs in assists in 04', and then Lebron needed 5-10 APG guys like Snow, Hughes, Mo, Wade, Kyrie, Rondo and Luka.. he NEVER got by with a nothingburger in the playmaking department like Klorver

[QUOTE=3ba11;15029096]If we replaced 09' Mo with Klay, then Lebron would still need an [I]additional player[/I] because the Cavs would have no secondary ball-handler after Lebron and Lebron needs a lot of playmaking help.. It's easy to forget that Jeff McGinnis led the Cavs in assists in 04', and then Lebron needed 5-10 APG guys like Snow, Hughes, Mo, Wade, Kyrie, Rondo and Luka.. he NEVER got by with a nothingburger in the playmaking department like Klorver[/QUOTE]


Thread Cliffs

Lebron enjoyed better statistical production from Mo in 2009 than Curry got from Klay in 2016.. The 09' Cavs, 16' Warriors and 07' Mavs were simply 1-man teams that got upset in the playoffs.. they were also upset BY one-man teams (Dwight, Baron), except Lebron's big 3 preseason favorite super-team.. Heading into the 2015 season, Curry's Warriors were actually considered a horrible roster with +2800 preseason odds and a sidekick that under-produced 09' Mo or Hornacek.. [I]So the results-oriented saying "73-win team" robs Curry of the 1-man carry-job that Lebron or Dirk got credit for with higher-producing teammates in 09' or 07'.[/I]

[QUOTE=3ba11;15029096]If we replaced 09' Mo with Klay, then Lebron would still need an [I]additional player[/I] because the Cavs would have no secondary ball-handler after Lebron and Lebron needs a lot of playmaking help.. It's easy to forget that Jeff McGinnis led the Cavs in assists in 04', and then Lebron needed 5-10 APG guys like Snow, Hughes, Mo, Wade, Kyrie, Rondo and Luka.. he NEVER got by with a nothingburger in the playmaking department like Klorver[/QUOTE]

He would still need an additional player and playerS because that team would have been the weakest champion sans their #1 player in the modern 3 pt line NBA.

[QUOTE=3ba11;15029098]Thread Cliffs

Lebron enjoyed better statistical production from Mo in 2009 than Curry got from Klay in 2016.. The 09' Cavs, 16' Warriors and 07' Mavs were simply 1-man teams that got upset in the playoffs.. they were also upset BY one-man teams (Dwight, Baron), except Lebron's big 3 preseason favorite super-team.. Heading into the 2015 season, Curry's Warriors were actually considered a horrible roster with +2800 preseason odds and a sidekick that under-produced 09' Mo or Hornacek.. [I]So the results-oriented saying "73-win team" robs Curry of the 1-man carry-job that Lebron or Dirk got credit for with higher-producing teammates in 09' or 07'.[/I][/QUOTE]

You thread-cliffed yourself 9 minutes after your post? Nice.

[QUOTE=Carbine;15029108]He would still need an additional player and playerS because that team would have been the weakest champion sans their #1 player in the modern 3 pt line NBA.[/QUOTE]


Mo's spacing is what allowed LeDrive's stats to explode in 2009 and the team to increase from 45 to 66 wins - Pippen's bricklaying would never be the perfect fit that Mo was, just like Ingram, Hughes or Westbrook were bad fits that failed.

Pippen was a system player, while Mo could get 17 ppg and 6 apg [I]without a system[/I], or create his own shot in the halfcourt, or space the floor - Mo was simply a better scorer than Pippen, while the Cavs had better team defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls.. The 07' Cavs also had better defensive ranking, which was long before Lebron made All-Defense, so the Cavs simply had a great defensive roster.

Even if you disagree that Mo was a better scorer than Pippen, [I]Jamison easily was[/I] - he was a 20k scorer that outscored Lebron in the 07' 1st Round and was 14th for MVP in 2008 (considered better than Pau before Pau joined Kobe).. Jamison/Shaq were added to a 66-win league favorite.

But I openly concede that the 09' Cavs, 07' Mavs, 16' Warriors or 90's Bulls were 1-man teams... The issue is that if people referred to the 07' Mavs or 09' Cavs as "67-win teams", this would imply they were stacked, thereby robbing Lebron/Dirk of having carry-jobs and 1-man teams.. Similarly, saying "73-win team" robs Curry of having a carry-job and 1-man team, despite a +2800 roster and a sidekick that under-produced 09' Mo, 07' Howard, or Hornacek.

[QUOTE=3ba11;15029168]Mo's spacing is what allowed LeDrive's stats to explode in 2009 and the team to increase from 45 to 66 wins - Pippen's bricklaying would never be the perfect fit that Mo was, just like Ingram, Hughes or Westbrook were bad fits that failed.

Pippen was a system player, while Mo could get 17 ppg and 6 apg [I]without a system[/I], or create his own shot in the halfcourt, or space the floor - Mo was simply a better scorer than Pippen, while the Cavs had better team defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls.. The 07' Cavs also had better defensive ranking, which was long before Lebron made All-Defense, so the Cavs simply had a great defensive roster.

Even if you disagree that Mo was a better scorer than Pippen, [I]Jamison easily was[/I] - he was a 20k scorer that outscored Lebron in the 07' 1st Round and was 14th for MVP in 2008 (considered better than Pau before Pau joined Kobe).. Jamison/Shaq were added to a 66-win league favorite.

But I openly concede that the 09' Cavs, 07' Mavs, 16' Warriors or 90's Bulls were 1-man teams... The issue is that if people referred to the 07' Mavs or 09' Cavs as "67-win teams", this would imply they were stacked, thereby robbing Lebron/Dirk of having carry-jobs and 1-man teams.. Similarly, saying "73-win team" robs Curry of having a carry-job and 1-man team, despite a +2800 roster and a sidekick that under-produced 09' Mo, 07' Howard, or Hornacek.[/QUOTE]

'16 Warriors a one man team?

LOL

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15029169]'16 Warriors a one man team?

LOL[/QUOTE]


09' MO......... 2.3 BPM... 0.165 WS.48... 3.1 VORP... 17.2 PER
16' KLAY...... 1.8 BPM... 0.144 WS/48... 2.5 VORP... 18.6 PER


if people referred to the 07' Mavs or 09' Cavs as "67-win teams", this would imply they were stacked, thereby robbing Lebron/Dirk of having carry-jobs and 1-man teams..

Similarly, saying "73-win team" robs Curry of having a carry-job and 1-man team, despite a sidekick that under-produced 09' Mo, 07' Howard, or Hornacek.

The 15' Warriors were considered a horrible roster with +2800 preseason odds, so they shocked the league and took the league by storm in that regular season

Wasn't Draymond on his way to win FMVP if the warriors won in 2016?

I don't know why you always devalue defensive players.

NBA teams already tried your method of all scoring players with no defense (KD's Nets & Suns teams), and they failed miserably.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15029171]Wasn't Draymond on his way to win FMVP if the warriors won in 2016?

I don't know why you always devalue defensive players.

NBA teams already tried your method of all scoring players with no defense (KD's Nets & Suns teams), and they failed miserably.[/QUOTE]
[URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?489427-Breaking-The-Houston-Rockets-are-trading-James-Harden-to-the-Brooklyn-Nets&p=14226806&viewfull=1#post14226806"]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?489427-Breaking-The-Houston-Rockets-are-trading-James-Harden-to-the-Brooklyn-Nets&p=14226806&viewfull=1#post14226806[/URL]

He also predicted the Suns would win the title in 2024 when they got swept in the first round :lol Just absolutely clueless about basketball.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15029171]Wasn't Draymond on his way to win FMVP if the warriors won in 2016?

I don't know why you always devalue defensive players.

NBA teams already tried your method of all scoring players with no defense (KD's Nets & Sun's teams), and they failed miserably.[/QUOTE]


You're purposefully misunderstanding the points being made so you can hold onto false beliefs that you were told by someone on TV

First of all, my method isn't an all-scoring team... My method and every GM's dream is to get a player like Curry, Kobe or MJ that can carry the "star" category of scoring, thereby allowing GM's to fill out the roster with cheap defenders - this is a GM's dream, as opposed to having a guy that can't carry the scoring load and therefore needs a bunch of expensive star help..

In this case, it's common knowledge that excessive ball-domination can't beat top teams, so Lebron can't carry the scoring load against top teams.. This inability to carry the star category of scoring requires more stars, which prevents GM's from getting the right defenders/others, aka elite roster construction.. Without elite roster construction, Lebron can't win with normal rosters of 1 franchise player, aka organic.

Secondly, guys like Lebron would never be able to play with non-scorers like Rodman or Draymond - this is common knowledge.. Bron-ball needs a ton of scoring help, so it can't go 4 on 5.

Thirdly, bringing up low usage/low FGA players makes my point that the Warriors were a 1-man team.. Draymond was just a role player that was lucky to land in a goat system that Curry's skillet allowed

Low usage/low FGA players like Draymond only have positive plus/minus on winning teams... On a losing team, Draymond is a big negative - he simply got a good slot in the goat system... It's similar to Kukoc being 4th in the league in plus/minus but then -300 in 1999 without the system

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15029171]Wasn't Draymond on his way to win FMVP if the warriors won in 2016?


[/Quote]


No because a Draymond-led team is a weak team - Dray needs to be at 5th or 6th option for a team to be any good, let alone 73 wins..

And the fact that Dray was the scoring leader instead of Klay further boosts my point about Klay (< 09' Mo).

In addition to Klay's ineptness, the reason the Warriors were so depleted by Game 7 is because of Curry's surgically-repaired MCL, which needed a rest after his hero-job against OKC... Meanwhile, Dray's suspension shut off the most well-oiled machine of all-time, and there simply wasn't enough time to get the engine back up to speed .. They had just enough gas in the tank for 73 wins + title, but the Dray suspension left then with an empty tank and job unfinished.. That's also partly why Dray was more motivated than anyone in Game 7 - it probably ruined their normal chemistry - again, they needed a little more time to get the engine back revving to full speed

[QUOTE=3ba11;15029185]No because a Draymond-led team is a weak team - Dray needs to be at 5th or 6th option for a team to be any good, let alone 73 wins..

And the fact that Dray was the scoring leader instead of Klay further boosts my point about Klay (< 09' Mo).

In addition to Klay's ineptness, the reason the Warriors were so depleted by Game 7 is because of Curry's surgically-repaired MCL, which needed a rest after his hero-job against OKC... Meanwhile, Dray's suspension shut off the most well-oiled machine of all-time, and there simply wasn't enough time to get the engine back up to speed .. They had just enough gas in the tank for 73 wins + title, but the Dray suspension left then with an empty tank and job unfinished.. That's also partly why Dray was more motivated than anyone in Game 7 - it probably ruined their normal chemistry - again, they needed a little more time to get the engine back revving to full speed[/QUOTE]
They just ran into the GOAT

[IMG]https://i.pinimg.com/736x/b3/75/c7/b375c7a409b2c1eaafcf56ef23a110b3--lebron-james-stats-nba-finals-.jpg[/IMG]

[img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClArCksWQAQ_EqP.jpg[/img]


[SIZE=4]Imagine if Mathurin dominated SGA, or Pippen dominated FMVP Barkley - it's impossible to lose when your sidekick dominates the current MVP - destroying the MVP is the most help possible, and Lebron is the only guy that ever had this kind of help..[/SIZE]

The only reason the Cavs were down 1-3 is because Lebron wet the bed through 4 games (24 and 6 TO's per game).. That's the only reason a big 3 preseason favorite was losing to a 1-man team.. Lebron had a team with 3 franchise players versus a 1-man team that was carried to 70 wins, despite a sidekick that under-produced 09' Mo or Hornacek..



[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15029186]They just ran into the GOAT

[IMG]https://i.pinimg.com/736x/b3/75/c7/b375c7a409b2c1eaafcf56ef23a110b3--lebron-james-stats-nba-finals-.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]



^^^ baby-brained

It's called a statistical anomaly and a meaningless footnote in history.

Lebron had teammates match him in every category, so he [i]never CARRIED any category[/i].. It isn't even optimal to lead role player categories like rebounding, since teams want their role players doing the role player stuff.. Otoh, the ultimate carry-job is carrying the "star" category of scoring, thereby needing less stars and winning with cheap defenders/others, while facing max defensive attention (carrying scoring load)..

Accordingly, all of Jordan Finals destroy Lebron's, especially Jordan's 41.0 ppg in the 93' Finals while facing "all eyes on me" defensive attention (carrying scoring load) in a slower-paced series - this is far superior to Lebron's 29.7 ppg, while having an equal-scoring partner to attract equal defensive attention and CLOSE.. It's night and day.

Defeating max defensive attention (carrying scoring load) > defeating HALF defensive attention (equal-scoring partner & CLOSER)

Who were the Warriors Cheap defenders?

Klay, Draymond, Iggy and Bogut all cost more against the cap than Curry did in 2016.

Here's a thought - they were far more than "defensive" players.

[QUOTE=Carbine;15029221]Who were the Warriors Cheap defenders?

Klay, Draymond, Iggy and Bogut all cost more against the cap than Curry did in 2016.

Here's a thought - they were far more than "defensive" players.[/QUOTE]


Generally, the category with the biggest correlation to higher salaries is scoring - it's the "star" category... And..

* Bogut = Big Z or Ben Wallace

31 year old Iggy (1x all-star) = 31-year old Szczerbiak (1x all-star) -

* Klay < 09' Mo and easily Jamison

* DraySystem Green = all defensive heady Varejao or Ben Wallace, or even old Shaq



So again, "the phrase" 73-win team" implies a stacked team, which robs Curry of having the carry-job and 1-man teams that 07' Dirk or 09' Lebron got credit for (despite higher-producing teammates)... Curry was the only unanimous MVP ever FOR A REASON (1-man team)

[QUOTE=3ba11;15029224]Generally, the category with the biggest correlation to higher salaries is scoring - it's the "star" category... And..

* Bogut = Big Z or Ben Wallace

31 year old Iggy (1x all-star) = 31-year old Szczerbiak (1x all-star) -

* Klay < 09' Mo and easily Jamison

* DraySystem Green = all defensive heady Varejao or Ben Wallace, or even old Shaq



So again, "the phrase" 73-win team" implies a stacked team, which robs Curry of having the carry-job and 1-man teams that 07' Dirk or 09' Lebron got credit for (despite higher-producing teammates)... Curry was the only unanimous MVP ever FOR A REASON (1-man team)[/QUOTE]
I think this is genuinely the worst post of the year.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15029289]I think this is genuinely the worst post of the year.[/QUOTE]


The only difference between the teams is that Curry's off-ball game and ball movement chemistry allowed a goat system that elevated Iggy, Bogut, and Dray, while Lebron's ball-domination reduced Zydrunas, Varejao, Szczerbiak, Delonte, Jamison and others.. Otherwise, Zydrunas was comparable to Bogut, or Jamison easily better than Klay, or Varejao and Mo compare to Iggy and Dray... System-ball and winning simply makes Curry's teammates seem better than Lebron imposing spot-up roles and losing upon everyone

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Thread Cliffs

Saying that Jamison/Shaq were added to a 66-win league favorite robs Lebron of the carry-job in 09', while saying that KD was added to a 73-win team robs Curry of his carry-job despite lesser-producing teammates than 09' Lebron or 07' Dirk (stats in OP).. Accordingly, the proper way to say it is that "KD was added to a 1-man team that won 73 games".

This response was necessary because a "normal" roster of 1 franchise player can't compete with a super-team of 3 franchise players, and a +2800 preseason roster can't compete with someone that assembled a record 6 straight preseason favorites (the previous record was 3 straight)..

The point was that the term "66-win team" implies that the 09' Cavs were a stacked team - that's the point... Same thing with "73-win team" even though Curry's high usage teammates (Klay )were lower producers than Lebron's (Mo)