Micheal Jordan Denial

[QUOTE]It doesn't matter if Russell would have had 7-8 finals mvp's, the fact remains is that he doesn't.[/QUOTE]

That's a bad excuse, really. Either if they existed or not, the fact remains that Russell was the MVP in more Finals' series than any player in history.

[QUOTE]And when he played their were only 2 playoff rounds, which makes it quite easy to win titles.[/QUOTE]

Whether it was easy or not to win titles, ask his opponents. :)
Actually, in most of these years, there were not 2 rounds, but 3. However, the team with the best record in the conference got a free pass to the Conference Finals up to 1966. And, really, what's the big deal with the absence of the playoff 1st round? Do you think Russell and the Celtics would for some reason fall victim of big-time upsets if there esixted 3 or 4 rounds instead of 2 or 3?

[QUOTE]Who cares about rebound records?[/QUOTE]

Anyone who knows that basketball is not only about shooting and scoring, I guess...

[QUOTE]Wilt averaged 11.7 ppg in the finals one year and never averaged 30 ppg in any finals. That's pathetic for a guy whose main focus was scoring in a fast paced era.[/QUOTE]

How obvious it is that you come from RealGM. :D It's the only place I've seen people use this number. Too bad they convincingly ignore the whole picture (willingly, nonetheless), which says that Wilt averaged 11.7 ppg, 25.0 rpg, likely dissed 3-4 apg, blocked numerous shots and shot at a high FG percentage.
As for the 30 ppg finals, it's once again a deceiving thing. He didn't do so, because in his high scoring years he couldn't get past the Celtics and go to the NBA Finals. He did however average 30+ ppg against the eventual champions in multiple playoff series, anyway, one round before the Finals. It's no wonder that once Wilt's team moved in west, they reached to the 1964 NBA Finals and Wilt averaged 29.2 pts and 27.6 rebs there. If they were already in west for more years, it's very likely that Wilt would have multiple 30+ ppg Finals' series.

[QUOTE]Shaq has 3 finals MVP's and is 3rd all time in finals ppg. Wilt isn't as good nor does he care when it matters most.[/QUOTE]

Again, there's much more than Finals' MVP's and ppg in the Finals...And Shaq is at 28.8 ppg now, so he's lower than #3 (Jerry West is No3, at 30.5 ppg). At least, he's lucky he won't play in more Finals' games and see his numbers go down even more. :)

[QUOTE]Whether it was easy or not to win titles, ask his opponents.
Actually, in most of these years, there were not 2 rounds, but 3. However, the team with the best record in the conference got a free pass to the Conference Finals up to 1966. And, really, what's the big deal with the absence of the playoff 1st round? Do you think Russell and the Celtics would for some reason fall victim of big-time upsets if there esixted 3 or 4 rounds instead of 2 or 3?[/QUOTE]

If 4 rounds existed he would have maybe won 6 titles. He got a break by having a series off while the other team had to battle out the first round. Of course it was easy for him to win titles.

Rebounds were easy in the 60's because guys were only 6'5" and couldn't jump. Also don't forget the pace factor and the fact guys were allowed to play 47 mpg.

[QUOTE]If 4 rounds existed he would have maybe won 6 titles. He got a break by having a series off while the other team had to battle out the first round. Of course it was easy for him to win titles.[/QUOTE]

If you get more than a few days or rest, it's equally easy for your team to get cold and lose a portion of its physique. Read playoff series previews and reviews between teams which got a multiple-day rest and teams which didn't. You'll see that there's always that possibility.
BTW, Russell won his last 2 titles in 3 series' leagues, anyway, while never having a full home court advantage.

[QUOTE]Rebounds were easy in the 60's because guys were only 6'5" and couldn't jump. Also don't forget the pace factor and the fact guys were allowed to play 47 mpg.[/QUOTE]

Man, you had some of the best posters in RealGM educate people as to what a big lie it is that centers were 6'5, yet you come to another board and start all over again with this lie. The "6'5 center" crap has been busted multiple times both here and there. As for the 47 mpg guys, they weren't multiple, either. Only Wilt, Russell (at times) and Oscar would get here. It boosted their numbers somewhat, but deflated their energy, as well.
I'll give you pace factor for rebounding, but, if you extend it to more stats, it appeals to a degree to any era before the last 5-10 years.

Funny how most of the anti-Jordan crowd are Laker/Kobe fans. Let it go Kobe fans. Kobe is nowhere near Jordan in any aspect of basketball, physically or mentally. No current player is close. If someone wants to say, Magic, Wilt, Russell, or even Shaq was better than Jordan. I can accept that opinion. But to say guys like Wade and Kobe are better than him? That's gotta be a joke. Kobe is overrated.

no need to argue with psileas about wilt. his reasons for picking the dipper are sound even if you don't necessarily agree with the conclusion.

[QUOTE=dejordan]no need to argue with psileas about wilt. his reasons for picking the dipper are sound even if you don't necessarily agree with the conclusion.[/QUOTE]
There are a lot of valid cases for past legends. But no valid cases for today's current players.

[QUOTE=Make It Rain]There are a lot of valid cases for past legends. But no valid cases for today's current players.[/QUOTE]
personally i agree with you. a shaq or duncan fanatic might feel like he's got an argument though.

[QUOTE=dejordan]personally i agree with you. a shaq or duncan fanatic might feel like he's got an argument though.[/QUOTE]
I'd tolerate an argument about a Prime Shaq or a Prime Duncan, but neither are in their primes right now.

Also, what people underrate about Jordan is how long his prime was. It was insanely long. And even when he wasn't in his prime anymore, he was still the best.

[QUOTE=EricForman]It may not be fact but it is the overwhelming consensus among fans/commentators/former players/coaches, generally anyone who's watched the game or been around the league for decades.

:)[/QUOTE]

the consensus among the majority of players in the nba and former players and coaches is that Kobe is the best in the world...But no one hear recognizes that...So it is ok to recognize them if you agree but if you dont agree those same people are idiots??

[QUOTE=Make It Rain]Funny how most of the anti-Jordan crowd are Laker/Kobe fans. Let it go Kobe fans. Kobe is nowhere near Jordan in any aspect of basketball, physically or mentally. No current player is close.[B] If someone wants to say, Magic, Wilt, Russell, or even Shaq was better than Jordan. I can accept that opinion.[/B] But to say guys like Wade and Kobe are better than him? That's gotta be a joke. Kobe is overrated.[/QUOTE]

that is all that was said..stop reaching troll

[QUOTE=Younggrease]that is all that was said..stop reaching troll[/QUOTE]
You're the troll. Lemme guess a Kobe fan? Read through the thread 99% of the Jordan hate is by Kobe fans.

when talking about the GOAT,it should a combination of team success + personal individual feats/accomplishments.When taking these into consideration along with clutch factor,Jordan basically beats them all.




I can't find the the exact quote right now but Hubie once said ssomething along the lines of "Wilt was the most dominant offensive force ever and Russell was the most dominant defensive force ever but noone was as equally dominant on both ends as Jordan".

I hope someone can find the link to that Hubie quote above

[QUOTE=kidachi]Kevin Martin too.[/QUOTE]


Thabo Sefolosha is better than MJ too :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=falcon#5]Micheal Jordan was one of the greatest players to play the game but people are going to have to face it sooner or later that they're are players just as good as him if not better.

People are in denial and they will never let anyone be better than Micheal jordan people just wont accept it thats how it is.

People ride off other players before they have even compared them to him because they wont let anyone be better seriously think about it.

woRd OUT[/QUOTE]



MJ was the perfect bball player. if you could customize and create the perfect bball guard it would be MJ, really no flaws in his game and probably more will to win than any athlete in the history of sports.

[QUOTE=Diesel J]when talking about the GOAT,it should a combination of team success + personal individual feats/accomplishments.When taking these into consideration along with clutch factor,Jordan basically beats them all.

Hubie brown sums it all up here...

[b][i]Hubie Brown on Jordan[/i][/b]



I can't find the the exact quote right now but Hubie once said ssomething along the lines of "Wilt was the most dominant offensive force ever and Russell was the most dominant defensive force ever but noone was as equally dominant on both ends as Jordan".

I hope someone can find the link to that Hubie quote above[/QUOTE]


Thank you so much for that. Nice work.

I love Hubie; the way he phrases things...like "game attendance".

I can hear him saying it. Too funny. :oldlol:

What bothers me the most about MJ conversations, and we've all been part of them, is when he is called G.O.A.T. In my humble opinion, that from a realistic and humble perspective, there is absolutley no such thing as "the greatest of all time for anything. John Coltrane wasn't the greatest tenor man ever just like Richard Pryor wasn't the greatest stand-up comic ever. Saying there is a greatest of anything is like a father calling one of his children "favorite." One of his kids may excel at one thing, but each child has thier own respective unique quality. Certainly Jordan was a very accomplished player, and there's no doubt he earned his plave in the annals of NBA time. However, if we weren't around to see the 60's and just how relevant Oscar or Russell were to thier teams and there era, and how relevant there era was to them, then we can't say Jordan was better than them. You have to take into account the relvence of Jordan's era and vice versa. Part of his lore was what he did for the sport. He made the game more popular amongst white suburban youth, skyrocketed the shoe market and made the NBA a brand name. You can't say he's the greatest when you also have to take into account his postion. He may have been the best SG, but that doesn't make him the best player ever. Kobe is just as lethal a scorer today as MJ was back then. If you think about all the rule-changes etc. that it easier for him to score, then take tem away, you can obviously see that helped him. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's just an opinion.

[QUOTE=BBallBeatwriter]What bothers me the most about MJ conversations, and we've all been part of them, is when he is called G.O.A.T. In my humble opinion, that from a realistic and humble perspective, there is absolutley no such thing as "the greatest of all time for anything. John Coltrane wasn't the greatest tenor man ever just like Richard Pryor wasn't the greatest stand-up comic ever. Saying there is a greatest of anything is like a father calling one of his children "favorite." One of his kids may excel at one thing, but each child has thier own respective unique quality. Certainly Jordan was a very accomplished player, and there's no doubt he earned his plave in the annals of NBA time. However, if we weren't around to see the 60's and just how relevant Oscar or Russell were to thier teams and there era, and how relevant there era was to them, then we can't say Jordan was better than them. You have to take into account the relvence of Jordan's era and vice versa. Part of his lore was what he did for the sport. He made the game more popular amongst white suburban youth, skyrocketed the shoe market and made the NBA a brand name. You can't say he's the greatest when you also have to take into account his postion. He may have been the best SG, but that doesn't make him the best player ever. [B]Kobe is just as lethal a scorer today as MJ was back then[/B]. If you think about all the rule-changes etc. that it easier for him to score, then take tem away, you can obviously see that helped him. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's just an opinion.[/QUOTE]

This has already been discussed.
MJ averages 30 ppg in the season, playoffs and finals. No one is as good as him especially scoring. He has 10 scoring titles to show.

[QUOTE=Younggrease]the consensus among the majority of players in the nba and former players and coaches is that Kobe is the best in the world...But no one hear recognizes that...So it is ok to recognize them if you agree but if you dont agree those same people are idiots??[/QUOTE]



yes, the best player today does not necessarily mean the best player ever

"Unless they change the dimensions of the game, there will be a player far greater than me." -Michael Jordan, from [I]The Love of the Game, My Story[/I]

I believe this to be true, but as of now, he's unmatched in greatness as a basketball player.

I just have one question for Kobe supporters who say stuff like "Kobe is just as good, or better a scorer".

Why do you not take into account:

A. Efficiency, fg% and such? Kobe has never shot 50% for a season, while Jordan was a CAREER 50% shooter (yes even including the Washington years). He shot 53% the year he scored 35ppg.

B. The FACT that Kobe has NEVER faced a team like the Detroit Pistons or 90s Knicks teams. Teams that would PUNISH you for driving the lane. Go back and look at some of the footage from Jordan vs. those teams and then point out to me where Kobe's EVER been through anything like it?

C. PLAYOFFS vs. REGULAR SEASON. If you compare their scoring from the playoffs it isn't even CLOSE. Kobe has yet to show that he can be anywhere near the dominant scorer Jordan was in the post season. And as any knowledgeable basketball fan should know, it's a lot harder to score in the post season against comp like the 90s Knicks then it is to score against the awful Toronto Raptors in the regular season.

The playoffs are the time where the comp is harder, the pressure is greater and where real NBA legends are made. Jordan actually RAISED his scoring in the playoffs. Please show me examples of Kobe's scoring brilliance in the playoffs vs. Jordan's. You can't.

So given all of that, I don't get the "Kobe is as good a scorer as Jordan" stuff. It's really ignorant.

Here's a more direct quote from the book a mentioned before:

[QUOTE]Somewhere there is a little kid working to enhance what we've done. It may take awhile, but someone will come along who approaches the game the way I did. He won't skip steps. He won't be afraid. He will learn from my example, just as I learned from others. He will master the fundamentals. Maybe he will take off from the free-throw line and do a 360 in midair. Why not? No one thought they would see a 6-foot-9 point guard or a 7-foot-7 center. But here we are. There are now more 6-foot-10 perimeter players than at any time in history. Magic would have been a center 30 years ago. Evolution knows no bounds. Unless they change the height of the basket or otherwise alter the dimensions of the game, there will be a player much greater than me.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=BBallBeatwriter]What bothers me the most about MJ conversations, and we've all been part of them, is when he is called G.O.A.T. In my humble opinion, that from a realistic and humble perspective, there is absolutley no such thing as "the greatest of all time for anything. John Coltrane wasn't the greatest tenor man ever just like Richard Pryor wasn't the greatest stand-up comic ever.[B] Saying there is a greatest of anything is like a father calling one of his children "favorite." One of his kids may excel at one thing, but each child has thier own respective unique quality.[/B] Certainly Jordan was a very accomplished player, and there's no doubt he earned his plave in the annals of NBA time. However, if we weren't around to see the 60's and just how relevant Oscar or Russell were to thier teams and there era, and how relevant there era was to them, then we can't say Jordan was better than them. You have to take into account the relvence of Jordan's era and vice versa. Part of his lore was what he did for the sport. He made the game more popular amongst white suburban youth, skyrocketed the shoe market and made the NBA a brand name. You can't say he's the greatest when you also have to take into account his postion. He may have been the best SG, but that doesn't make him the best player ever. Kobe is just as lethal a scorer today as MJ was back then. If you think about all the rule-changes etc. that it easier for him to score, then take tem away, you can obviously see that helped him. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's just an opinion.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, man. That's not the same. Your kid is your fresh and blood. If you truely love your children, you have no favorite. Period. Trane and MJ are people who we watch for entertainment, and as big fans, we analyse. Huge difference. BTW, ever heard Bird on the tenor? Just picked one up, didn't warm up on it or anything, did one session with Miles...[I]crazy![/I]

MJ fans are so insecure :oldlol: It's quite amusing and pathetic at the same time.

Well, I give a sh*t about stats.

And I won

[QUOTE=dhenk]Well, I give a sh*t about stats.

And I won

[QUOTE]ESPN SportsCentury: Top 100 Athletes of the 20th Century

[B]# 1. Michael Jordan[/B]
# 2. Babe Ruth
# 3. Muhammad Ali
# 4. Jim Brown
# 5. Wayne Gretzky
# 6. Jesse Owens
# 7. Jim Thorpe
# 8. Willie Mays
# 9. Jack Nicklaus
# 10. Babe Didrikson
# 11. Joe Louis
# 12. Carl Lewis
# 13. Wilt Chamberlain
# 14. Hank Aaron
# 15. Jackie Robinson
# 16. Ted Williams
# 17. Magic Johnson
# 18. Bill Russell
# 19. Martina Navratilova
# 20. Ty Cobb
# 21. Gordie Howe
# 22. Joe DiMaggio
# 23. Jackie Joyner-Kersee
# 24. Sugar Ray Robinson
# 25. Joe Montana[/QUOTE]

Close thread.

^^up

[QUOTE=BIZARRO]Famous story about how Bird, Magic, and MJ all stayed up all night in Barcelona one night and they talked about about who's the greatest.

After going back and forth, Bird stopped the conversation and said, "Magic you were great, I was great, but MJ was the greatest." The way Bird put it, Magic and him conceded.


I'll try to find a link, but it's a pretty famous story.[/QUOTE]

At the 2:40 mark, someone gives notice of that story you're talking about.

[url]http://youtube.com/watch?v=nP-Rm2atzU0[/url]

[QUOTE=Z3120]At the 2:40 mark, someone gives notice of that story you're talking about.

[url]http://youtube.com/watch?v=nP-Rm2atzU0[/url][/QUOTE]



Thanks man. :)

I would also like to say, that although I have never been a big fan of Isiah as a guy, he is supremely complimentary to Mike in this video.

I think that shows something on his part. :applause:

^^^thanks for that video link!

[QUOTE=Diesel J]An interesting article with all time greats prasing MJ..

[b][i] Michael Jordan Retires - Praise from his peers - Monday February 01, 1999 03:52 PM[/i][/b]

[url]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/1999/jordan_retires/news/1999/01/13/jordan_greatest/[/url][/QUOTE]

..by the way,I heard that Red Aurebach said that Jordan was the best he ever saw play.Is this true?

[QUOTE]SportsCentury: Top 100 Athletes of the 20th Century

# 1. Michael Jordan
# 2. Babe Ruth
# 3. Muhammad Ali
# 4. Jim Brown
# 5. Wayne Gretzky
# 6. Jesse Owens
# 7. Jim Thorpe
# 8. Willie Mays
# 9. Jack Nicklaus
# 10. Babe Didrikson
# 11. Joe Louis
# 12. Carl Lewis
# 13. Wilt Chamberlain
# 14. Hank Aaron
# 15. Jackie Robinson
# 16. Ted Williams
# 17. Magic Johnson
# 18. Bill Russell
# 19. Martina Navratilova
# 20. Ty Cobb
# 21. Gordie Howe
# 22. Joe DiMaggio
# 23. Jackie Joyner-Kersee
# 24. Sugar Ray Robinson
# 25. Joe Montana[/QUOTE]

Great list, but no Pele?
He owns everyone there. Several lists have him at 1.
I guess its just the US known athletes.

I think Pele was somewhere below #25. Maybe at around 40. The poll includes only American athletes and I guess is hugely biased towards USA ones. This doesn't make it worse than plenty of non-American polls, though: Take European polls, and you'll see them flooded with soccer players. NFL? Baseball? Hockey? All of them will be lucky to have like 3-5 athletes in the top-50 or top-100. The only American athletes who are widely recognised outside America are NBA players and track/field stars. And if the poll is made in England, you'll even see cricket and snooker legends ranked above basketball ones...

[QUOTE=Poseidon]I've said this once and I'll say it again....

Jordan = right place, right time

He'd just be another great swingman had he played in today's game. Jordan would be grouped wirth Kobe, Wade, Iverson and McGrady (also maybe LeBron).

Also his stats would not be as inflated due to Zone defense, non-hand checking rule and better athletes in his position and in the league.

No more 50 point games againt the Craig Ehlo's or the Danny Ainge's or the Jeff Malone's of the world. He'll now be facing some real, athletic competition.

Also players like Vince Carter, Jason Richardson, Josh Smith and about 10 others would put Jordan's "AIR" moniker to shame with their dunks compared the MJ's generic ones. He can kiss any Slam Dunk title away because he would NEVER win one in today's league.

:oldlol:[/QUOTE]

I was too young when Jordan was around and kicking ass, but I am 100% sure that Michael Jordan, if he played in 2008, would NOT be grouped with the likes of McGrady and Carter, that I have absolutely no doubt.

[QUOTE=brantonli]I was too young when Jordan was around and kicking ass, but I am 100% sure that Michael Jordan, if he played in 2008, would NOT be grouped with the likes of McGrady and Carter, that I have absolutely no doubt.[/QUOTE]

I am old enough and I can assure you that you are 100% correct.

[QUOTE=Diesel J]..by the way,I heard that Red Aurebach said that Jordan was the best he ever saw play.Is this true?[/QUOTE]

anyone know anything about this?

[QUOTE=Diesel J]anyone know anything about this?[/QUOTE]
i seem to remember this too, but i can't find footage of it. maybe on his centerstage interview? jerry west says so unequivocally if you're looking to quote a great gm. so does pat riley. and bob cousy. larry bird. magic johnson. isiah thomas. grant hill. dominique wilkins. charles barkley. reggie miller. kenny smith. hubie brown. tracy mcgrady. allen iverson. shaquille oneal. bob knight. dean smith. actually pretty much every player, coach, or gm i've ever heard questioned on it since jordan hit his peak has said he was the best except big o (who said big o was the best), wilt (who said wilt was the best), russell (who said there's about 6 possibilities but wouldn't commit to one), and mark jackson who said it was kobe.

not that we should believe what experts have to say. half the time they are full of it, and we all know that the league extorts them to lie on jordan's behalf. duh.

There are no "IFs". What happened is what happened. Jordan, 6 rings, Finals MVP on all of them. Made the Bulls franchise Top 10 Teams of All Time list. :cheers:

To be clear, Jordan created the Chicago Bulls! XD

[QUOTE=dejordan]i seem to remember this too, but i can't find footage of it. maybe on his centerstage interview? jerry west says so unequivocally if you're looking to quote a great gm. so does pat riley. and bob cousy. larry bird. magic johnson. isiah thomas. grant hill. dominique wilkins. charles barkley. reggie miller. kenny smith. hubie brown. tracy mcgrady. allen iverson. shaquille oneal. bob knight. dean smith. actually pretty much every player, coach, or gm i've ever heard questioned on it since jordan hit his peak has said he was the best except big o (who said big o was the best), wilt (who said wilt was the best), russell (who said there's about 6 possibilities but wouldn't commit to one), and mark jackson who said it was kobe.
[/QUOTE]

yeah,I posted an article a few pages back where Cousy says he's the best player he ever saw.

You should learn to spell correctly anyone you are trying to denigrate.

That is all.