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I find it kind of funny that the guy that was too soft to play small forward and too slow to play the two in seatle is now starting pf for the magic at 6'10 215 (probably 225 now)
but the manchild Lebron James (6'9 260) isn't big or strong enough to play on todays phsically dominant power forwards
You all need to understand we're not saying he plays in the post, just is listed as a pf and either he or the sf guard the oposing pf the same as lewis
I've always perfered LeBron in the post then him at the top of the key going 1against 5. In the post it is deficult to have defenders swarm you like you would see happen when he goes 1 vs 5. Also it is a lot easier to find the open man when the doubles do come.
[QUOTE=MMM]I've always perfered LeBron in the post then him at the top of the key going 1against 5. In the post it is deficult to have defenders swarm you like you would see happen when he goes 1 vs 5. Also it is a lot easier to find the open man when the doubles do come.[/QUOTE]Why would they double him when all the other 29 teams know his post game is anemic?
Damn, I know this board was stupid, but damn !
Just because he'd be a PF doesn't mean he'd have to play in the post. He won't change his game.
[QUOTE=Mikaiel]Damn, I know this board was stupid, but damn !
Just because he'd be a PF doesn't mean he'd have to play in the post. He won't change his game.[/QUOTE]
This thread is a litany of horrible posts. Moving to PF does not mean that he has to change his offensive game in the least. All it means is that, occasionally, he may be matched up defensively with massive 4's like Rashard Lewis and that the Cavs will put more emphasis on a smaller lineup... Which they've been experimenting with for the past couple of seasons anyway (with great success much of the time).
Saying that he has to play in the post because he is listed as a 4 is as asinine as saying that no guard can play in the post simply because of where they are listed on the roster.
"Michael Jordan was a shooting guard. To think that he can play in the post is laughable. He is listed as a 2, for God's sake!"
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]This thread is a litany of horrible posts. Moving to PF does not mean that he has to change his offensive game in the least. All it means is that, occasionally, he may be matched up defensively with massive 4's like Rashard Lewis and that the Cavs will put more emphasis on a smaller lineup... Which they've been experimenting with for the past couple of seasons anyway (with great success much of the time).
Saying that he has to play in the post because he is listed as a 4 is as asinine as saying that no guard can play in the post simply because of where they are listed on the roster.
"Michael Jordan was a shooting guard. To think that he can play in the post is laughable. He is listed as a 2, for God's sake!"[/QUOTE]
if what you are insinuating is correct then why bother announcing that lebron is going to be listed as a 4. if nothing at all is going to change as you say, whats the point of making a deal about it?
personally i think its dumb if he is going to be switching back to guarding a different player after every possession. frankly this whole idea is dumb, he will be a sf and play just as he did last season.
[QUOTE=T-bomb 25]Why would they double him when all the other 29 teams know his post game is anemic?[/QUOTE]
He certainly isn't the most gifted player with his back to the back but he is getting better. Last season you can see at times they were using it more and more in the offense and as they did that he did improve. His post game still needs a lot of work but you should remember he could also face up from the block which is when he can draw the double teams.
[QUOTE=YAWN]if what you are insinuating is correct then why bother announcing that lebron is going to be listed as a 4. if nothing at all is going to change as you say, whats the point of making a deal about it?
[/QUOTE]
...because it represents the Cavaliers going in a different direction than in years past (relying on the size and slow-footed Z/Wallace/Varejao/Smith) in favor of a smaller, more versatile lineup that resembles Orlando more than conventional teams like Boston.
It isn't the fact that LeBron may be playing at the 4 that is the most note-worthy thing... It is that he will likely be paired with Shaq and a more athletic 3 to go along with the backcourt (however that shakes out). It would be a different philosophy, both offensively and defensively.
I'm not saying I'm for it, but I have no doubt that LeBron can work with Shaq down low and more athletic scorers at the 1, 2, and 3 spots.
That is why it is news (and rightfully so). If you saw how lumbering the Cavs looked during the Orlando series, it is a huge change in philosophy... And a possible over-reaction to those mismatches that were exploited.
The only reason I believe they are studying that possibility... Is again, to beat the Orlando Magic...
Why everything I see the Cavs doing sounds like a move to better prepare the team to beat the Magic?
I though Shaq trade was motivated to beat Dwight Howard. And now, moving LeBron to PF sounds to me a way to stop Rashard Lewis shooting.
IF the Cavs are trying to prepare the team to beat the Magic, I think they are taking the wrong way... I guess they did the same thing before, but for the Celtics after they beat the Cavs.
Cavaliers should try to play under their strengths and strengths of their coaching staff instead of messing around and risking making things worst instead of improving it... And a lot of franchise done that sort of mistakes before.
[QUOTE=Lebron23]How about this starting 5?
C- Shaquille O'Neal
F- LeBron James
F- Charlie Villanueva
G- Danny Green
G- Mo Williams
By the way Larry Bird played the PF Position earlier in his NBA Career, and he averaged a double double.[/QUOTE]
Danny Green isn't going to be starting. And if they sign Villanueva there's no way they're moving LeBron to power forward.
[QUOTE=sobeking]Cavaliers should try to play under their strengths and strengths of their coaching staff instead of messing around and risking making things worst instead of improving it... And a lot of franchise done that sort of mistakes before.[/QUOTE]
The fact of the matter is, changes were going to have to come in the frontcourt whether the Orlando debacle happened or not. Big Z is no longer a starting center on a contender in this league and that was becoming obvious before DHo completely embarrassed him in the ECF.
I love Z... he is a great guy and he is the only player on the roster that bridges the struggles before the 'LeBron lottery' and what has happened since. He deserves respect for that alone. But, he also happens to be a great character guy that will accept any role in an attempt to do what is best for the team. He is a consummate professional and, on top of all of that, he married a Cleveland girl and his core group of friends are all random Cleveland people that he has met over the years.
Z is a beloved figure in Cleveland and I hope to never see him in another uniform. It would be a great disservice to him and the fans that he has made if he doesn't retire in wine-and-gold.
That said, he is a backup center right now... Nothing more.
Varejao has never been the caliber a player to start at the 4 on a championship contender. He is an energy guy that should get 15-20 minutes or so per night.
It was [B]clear [/B]that moves had to be made and, long before the Orlando series, during the trade deadline, the Cavs made a push for a bevy of frontcourt players (including Shaq) because they recognized these problems.
I'm not saying that we should change the entire team philosophy of going with a half-court, slow-it-down style with a big, slow frontcourt, but something had to be done to address the Big Z/Varejao/Wallace/Smith situation. Those guys could not go another season as the rotation in the frontcourt.
The Shaq move was made for a hell of a lot more reasons than Howard. He was part of the equation, but a relatively small part.
The keys were that Shaq is still a top tier center in the NBA -- the likes of which the Cavs have not had during these LeBron years -- and the fact that his $20 million contract expires next season, freeing up the Cavs to do even more work on a team that is aging in a lot of spots.
The Shaq move, to me, cannot fail. The worst-case scenario... Shaq gets hurt in the preseason and never plays for the Cavs -- would still not be a total loss because of the moves that his contract will allow us to do in 2010. I don't see how anyone could view that as a bad move, especially with how well Shaq played last year, particularly in the second half of the year when he could have packed it in since he was playing for a team that had no chance of making a run.
Now that we have Shaq, another move [B]has [/B]to be made, because you simply cannot pair Shaq in the frontcourt with Varejao. That would be a horrible pairing and, as I said, Varejao isn't good enough to be a starting 4 on a contender in the NBA, anyway... Let alone standing under the rim next to Shaq.
Villanueva is the move that makes the most sense to me, from a floor spacing stand-point. Shaq will take care of the low post work (something the Cavs haven't had in the LeBron years), but he needs to be paired with a 4 that can step out and hit the medium range jumper consistently to have proper floor spacing and open up driving lanes for LeBron. I don't see a better option out there, although so many on this board seem to have such negative feelings toward CV.
I've seen the Bucks quite a bit over the years and I have always been impressed with the guy. Also, he isn't going to have to be a primary scorer like he was when Milwaukee lost Redd to injury and Mo to the Cavs. All he has to do is fill his role, knock down his open jumpers, and maybe occasionally create (which he is entirely capable of). He is also athletic enough to help with more athletic 4's that gave the Cavs fits against Orlando. Yes... His defense has never been good, but he is young and Mike Brown has a track record of making suspect defenders into serviceable (or better) on that end of the floor (Mo, LeBron... he even had Drew Gooden playing pretty good defense in-between his brain farts).
If the decision is to sign an athletic 3 and move LeBron to the 4, I have to have faith that it will work.
The point is, though, that moves [B]had [/B]to be made this offseason. Varejao and Z were not capable of being the cornerstones in the frontcourt. I'm surprised that most people seem... surprised at these moves. They almost had to happen for the Cavs to continue as a contender.
[QUOTE=Meticode]Danny Green isn't going to be starting. And if they sign Villanueva there's no way they're moving LeBron to power forward.[/QUOTE]
Correct and correct.
Although, I do like what I've seen out of Green. He certainly won't be a starter or even a player that will get heavy minutes off of the bench next year (imo), but he is a long 2/3 that has good all-around skill. I could see him being a solid role player in the NBA in a few years and maybe used in certain situations in the next couple of years when we play teams that require bigger defenders in the backcourt.
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]The fact of the matter is, changes were going to have to come in the frontcourt whether the Orlando debacle happened or not. Big Z is no longer a starting center on a contender in this league and that was becoming obvious before DHo completely embarrassed him in the ECF.
I love Z... he is a great guy and he is the only player on the roster that bridges the struggles before the 'LeBron lottery' and what has happened since. He deserves respect for that alone. But, he also happens to be a great character guy that will accept any role in an attempt to do what is best for the team. He is a consummate professional and, on top of all of that, he married a Cleveland girl and his core group of friends are all random Cleveland people that he has met over the years.
Z is a beloved figure in Cleveland and I hope to never see him in another uniform. It would be a great disservice to him and the fans that he has made if he doesn't retire in wine-and-gold.
That said, he is a backup center right now... Nothing more.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. The man has basically been getting enough minutes to come off the bench anyway the last what...two or three years? If you didn't see how many games he started and just saw his minutes per game you'd think he was a bench player.
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]Varejao has never been the caliber a player to start at the 4 on a championship contender. He is an energy guy that should get 15-20 minutes or so per night.[/QUOTE]
It's ashame he's opting out for more money though. As much as a lot of people hate him he's really a valuable player bringing intangibles off the bench. And the fact he gets under everyone's skin is invaluable.
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]It was [B]clear [/B]that moves had to be made and, long before the Orlando series, during the trade deadline, the Cavs made a push for a bevy of frontcourt players (including Shaq) because they recognized these problems.
I'm not saying that we should change the entire team philosophy of going with a half-court, slow-it-down style with a big, slow frontcourt, but something had to be done to address the Big Z/Varejao/Wallace/Smith situation. Those guys could not go another season as the rotation in the front court.
The Shaq move was made for a hell of a lot more reasons than Howard. He was part of the equation, but a relatively small part.
[/QUOTE]
Even with this move we still need another front court player to me. Losing Varejao further shows this if he's asking too much money
The keys were that Shaq is still a top tier center in the NBA -- the likes of which the Cavs have not had during these LeBron years -- and the fact that his $20 million contract expires next season, freeing up the Cavs to do even more work on a team that is aging in a lot of spots.
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]The Shaq move, to me, cannot fail. The worst-case scenario... Shaq gets hurt in the preseason and never plays for the Cavs -- would still not be a total loss because of the moves that his contract will allow us to do in 2010. I don't see how anyone could view that as a bad move, especially with how well Shaq played last year, especially in the second half of the year.[/QUOTE]
This is one reason why I loved the trade. One, you're giving up basically nothing for a true-big man that's a true inside presence. If he doesn't work out, then in 2010 you have $21 million off the books still.
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]Villanueva is the move that makes the most sense to me, from a floor spacing stand-point. Shaq will take care of the low post work (something the Cavs haven't had in the LeBron years), but he needs to be paired with a 4 that can step out and hit the medium range jumper consistently to have proper floor spacing and open up driving lanes for LeBron. I don't see a better option out there, although so many on this board seem to have such negative feelings toward CV.[/QUOTE]
Before the Shaq trade I wasn't too keen on getting him, now after it, it's looking more and more obvious he would be a great fit from an offensive standpoint.
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]If the decision is to sign an athletic 3 and move LeBron to the 4, I have to have faith that it will work.[/QUOTE]
I've been hoping we can get Matt Barnes for this. 6-7, 230LBS. Guy is athletic, great energy guy, can knock down open jumpers, run the floor well, and be pesky on defense while being able to guard the 2 and 3 spots on the floor.
He's actually strong enough to do it, but I think it would wear him down at some point in the season. Not saying he'll get injured, but I have a feeling that if they push through with this, they'll put him back to his natural position halfway into the season.
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]Correct and correct.
Although, I do like what I've seen out of Green. He certainly won't be a starter or even a player that will get heavy minutes off of the bench next year (imo), but he is a long 2/3 that has good all-around skill. I could see him being a solid role player in the NBA in a few years and maybe used in certain situations in the next couple of years when we play teams that require bigger defenders in the backcourt.[/QUOTE]
Yes, don't get me wrong. I can see Green getting minutes. Especially if he wins over the coaches in whatever time he gets during the pre-season, but there's no way in hell you're starting a second round draft pick to make a championship run like that early in the season.