Michael Jordan Anti-clutch Log

[QUOTE=Fatal9]What do you want? Did I say he wasn't clutch in most of those series? I'm looking at this from a game by game basis. I've didn't even use the word "choke" (because I don't think Jordan ever really did) just curious to see the # of games where he didn't come through. I'm estimating by the end of this thread we'll have a 100+ incidents, which might surprise some people. This is what made Jordan so clutch, he screws up here and there but in the end he is beating you any which way.

I love how in Jordan's case a long three pointer at the end of regulation shouldn't count but in Kobe's case they don't hesitate to post his FG% at the buzzer (when good chunk of those shots are exactly those long threes with a couple of seconds left). This is the double standard I'm a bit annoyed with.[/QUOTE]
You never put what you wrote in your first paragraph in your original post, so it kinda moot to say right now. Also, you claim you are mad at how today's players un clutch moments, but DonDadda exposed you on a earlier post when he quoted actual posts where you bring up Lebron as unclutch. I have also seen various other posts of yours where you bring up moments of Lebron being unclutch. Double standard much?

[QUOTE=Knoe Itawl]Lakers Showtime is one of like three or four Lakers fans I can tolerate on here, but ultimately he's still a Lakers fan and has the biases that entails. Fatal is clear as day to those who understand what he's trying to do. Fatal actually knows that, his purpose is to try to infect those people who he thinks will buy is routine. He knows going with the Alpha Wolf, Can't Stop brand of idiocy won't cut it, so he hopes that by saying he's a big Jordan fan and posting manipulated data, he'll convince the naive that "Hey, that Jordan guy was great but not as great as reported, and hey that Kobe is actually closer to him than people want to admit".[/QUOTE]


Good post but even Fatal knows the truth... MJ IS THE BEST AND has the best PER ever... :applause: EVEN VATOS AND ESSAYS NO THE TRUTH... :roll:

[QUOTE=juju151111]He would be on Kobe/shaq popular level if he played today. That means you don't have to watch BB to know who he is. LOL People taslked about his failures back then too. Read articles from 86-90 when he only won MVPs and stuff. They were ripping him and saying a leading scorer can't win crap, that he not a winner, and he just flashy. After he won in 1991 they pretty much stopped. They started again [B]when the bulls lose to Magic and articles and mags started saying Penny was better then MJ[/B].:lol[/QUOTE]

i still have an ESPN basketball preview magazine that says "WHO'S BEST?" and it has a picture of Hakeem and a picture of Jordan, prior to the start of the '95-96 season. hakeem is a legend and was coming off of 2 rings while Jordan was getting ready to play his first full season back from striking out for the birmingham barons. but the events of that season and the following 2 seasons kinda put that one to bed pretty quickly.

:roll:
Everyone should just give Fatal what he wants and post one moment u recall of Jordan being anti-clutch.
I'm sure it would help him sleep at night, pondering over Jordan's imperfections.
I'll think about it and post some

[QUOTE=NBASTATMAN]Good post but even Fatal knows the truth... MJ IS THE BEST [B]AND has the best PER ever[/B]... :applause: EVEN VATOS AND ESSAYS NO THE TRUTH... :roll:[/QUOTE]
Kobe's peak > Hakeem's peak because he had a higher PER, right? Statistically prime Kareem (who played with only 10-15% difference in pace) kills Jordan. This is why I hate Jordan fans (not the player, but his fans). They make his teammates seem worse than they really are, they try to make it seem like the "GOAT" status is questionable, they are usually ignorant kids who really have followed only his career (mostly through biased youtube highlights), don't place his career in context, they are sensitive to any opinion or comment that doesn't praise him, and the worst part is that there are so many of them on the internet (crazy amount of youtube tribute videos).

There isn't even a negative comment about Jordan in the OP but these guys are so insecure it's crazy.

[QUOTE=Fatal9]Kobe's peak > Hakeem's peak because he had a higher PER, right? Statistically prime Kareem (who played with only 10-15% difference in pace) kills Jordan. This is why I hate Jordan fans (not the player, but his fans). They make his teammates seem worse than they really are, they try to make it seem like the "GOAT" status is questionable, [B]they are usually ignorant kids who really have followed only his career (mostly through biased youtube highlights), don't place his career in context, they are sensitive to any opinion or comment that doesn't praise him, and the worst part is that there are so many of them on the internet (crazy amount of youtube tribute videos).[/B]
There isn't even a negative comment about Jordan in the OP but these guys are so insecure it's crazy.[/QUOTE]
LMAO I think you got mixed up with Kobe Stans:oldlol:

[QUOTE=Fatal9]Kobe's peak > Hakeem's peak because he had a higher PER, right? Statistically prime Kareem (who played with only 10-15% difference in pace) kills Jordan. This is why I hate Jordan fans (not the player, but his fans). They make his teammates seem worse than they really are, they try to make it seem like the "GOAT" status is questionable, they are usually ignorant kids who really have followed only his career (mostly through biased youtube highlights), don't place his career in context, they are sensitive to any opinion or comment that doesn't praise him, and the worst part is that there are so many of them on the internet (crazy amount of youtube tribute videos).

There isn't even a negative comment about Jordan in the OP but these guys are so insecure it's crazy.[/QUOTE]
That 15% difference in pace makes the difference that's adjusted for in PER, and that's why Jordan's is higher no?

[QUOTE=Dave3]That 15% difference in pace makes the difference that's adjusted for in PER, and that's why Jordan's is higher no?[/QUOTE]
The difference in pace would have little to no effect on Kareem's scoring numbers (half the time he didn't even cross the half court line when Oscar or someone else would push the ball). In a slower pace, you usually have a more structured offense and the superstar as a result ends up getting just as many touches, if not more (current Cavs system is a good example). PER is a flawed and BS statistic. The only time I use it is when comparing Kobe with someone like say Hakeem. Why? Because everyone knows Hakeem at his peak was more dominant but PER tells us otherwise, and it points out the hypocrisy of the same people who say MJ is unquestionably the best because of PER (who then try to dismiss it as being useless when it works in someone else's favor). PER tells me Wade had the greatest finals performance ever, which is a joke considering it probably wasn't even top 15 by my count. It's a useless statistic that is used by ignorant fans. Also, Kareem's 4-5 blocks in his peak season also don't go towards "PER". Using PER to supposedly end an argument is an excellent way to show you know d!ck all.

[QUOTE=Fatal9]The difference in pace would have little to no effect on Kareem's scoring numbers (half the time he didn't even cross the half court line when Oscar or someone else would push the ball). In a slower pace, you usually have a more structured offense and the superstar as a result ends up getting just as many touches, if not more (current Cavs system is a good example). PER is a flawed and BS statistic. The only time I use it is when comparing Kobe with someone like say Hakeem. Why? Because everyone knows Hakeem at his peak was more dominant but PER tells us otherwise, and it points out the hypocrisy of the same people who say MJ is unquestionably the best because of PER (who then try to dismiss it as being useless when it works in someone else's favor). PER tells me Wade had the greatest finals performance ever, which is a joke considering it probably wasn't even top 15 by my count. It's a useless statistic that is used by ignorant fans. Also, Kareem's 4-5 blocks in his peak season also don't go towards "PER". Using PER to supposedly end an argument is an excellent way to show you know d!ck all.[/QUOTE]
1. You think there are 15 better performances than Wades' in the finals??
2. I didn't watch Karim play so I don't know how the pace affected him whether it favoured or not so I won't comment, but I think there has to be more to it than you explained
3. So PER is useful for comparing players in the same generation then?

[QUOTE=Dave3]1. You think there are 15 better performances than Wades' in the finals??[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136524[/url] (I'm such a hater that Jordan is #1 on my list :oldlol:)

[QUOTE=Fatal9][url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136524[/url] (I'm such a hater that Jordan is #1 on my list :oldlol:)[/QUOTE]
We're not all teenagers here. Most of us see right through the act. You use that to somehow justify your opinions and give yourself credibility in your desperate attempt to brainwash kids into thinking the way you think. It's pathetic how far Kobe fans are determined to go. Nobody says Jordan's untouchable. Hell, LeBron might reach him. But KOBE WILL NOT. That's a fact. Kobe will not enter the Immortal 6. Yes, you have permission to kill yourself now that you know this fact about your idol.

Some more additions:

Nov 6, 1986 vs. Pistons - Jordan misses 2 FTs in the last three minutes of the game, and commits two costly turnovers. As a result, Bulls lose a close game to the Pistons.

Nov 26, 1986 vs. Denver - Jordan goes 0-4 on the last 1:30. Bulls lose a close one as Denver wins 109-107.

Dec 5, 1986 vs. Phoenix - Jordan has two shot attempts to send the game to overtime or win it outright, but fails to do so. He misses a shot with 1 second left as the Suns win 114-112.

Dec 31, 1986 vs. Warriors - Jordan misses a long game tying three point attempt at the buzzer.

Literally finding 3-4 cases every month.

I think I'll revise my estimate of 100 unclutch moments to about 200 (about 15-20% of the games he played in!).

[QUOTE=Yung D-Will][url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=97818&page=2[/url]

There are actually alot of people who did surprisingly.[/QUOTE]

Saying he doesn't have a weakness and saying he's perfect is completely different. His 3 point shooting was not a weakness. He doesn't really have a weakness.

[QUOTE=Fatal9]Some more additions:

Nov 6, 1986 vs. Pistons - Jordan misses 2 FTs in the last three minutes of the game, and commits two costly turnovers. As a result, Bulls lose a close game to the Pistons.

Nov 26, 1986 vs. Denver - Jordan goes 0-4 on the last 1:30. Bulls lose a close one as Denver wins 109-107.

Dec 5, 1986 vs. Phoenix - Jordan has two shot attempts to send the game to overtime or win it outright, but fails to do so. He misses a shot with 1 second left as the Suns win 114-112.

Dec 31, 1986 vs. Warriors - Jordan misses a long game tying three point attempt at the buzzer.

Literally finding 3-4 cases every month.

I think I'll revise my estimate of 100 unclutch moments to about 200 (about 15-20% of the games he played in!).[/QUOTE]
Where are you getting this info from??

[QUOTE=juju151111]Where are you getting this info from??[/QUOTE]
:confusedshrug: