30 minute Lebron video and a totally statless case for him to be top 20 ever. Today.

[QUOTE=HighFlyer23]which should tell you that PER is a garbage stat[/QUOTE]

top 5 in PER this past season?

LeBron
Wade
Paul
Howard
Duncan

5 of the best players in basketball, not much argument right? Not a garbage stat.

[QUOTE=HighFlyer23]which should tell you that PER is a garbage stat[/QUOTE]
PER isn't a garbage stat, and I don't think any stat is garbage (that I can think of). They are however, tools one can use to measure a player's performance and consistency.

They aren't the ultimate decider, but they are something that help lead to a decision.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]



These 15 players I think you can say were better than Lebron and not get much argument:

Bob Petitt
Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Bird
Magic
Moses
Jordan
Hakeem
Duncan
Shaq
Baylor
West
Oscar

*Id throw Isiah in there but many people wouldnt.*

.[/QUOTE]
lol at Baylor/West/Oscar being on this list but not Kobe. What a joke. :oldlol:

You take away the MVP, you look at the wins, and then Lebron Doesn't look so good. Hes been to the Finals once, and played horrifically, he got to the conference finals and lifted his play, but none the less did not get his team mates involved and lost the series, even though they had proven they were the better team. Hes lead some average teams farther than they should go, but not a top 20 player in any way.
Now lets look at a guy like Wade, who Is definitely not top 20 player. He comes to a team, that was only 20 someive wins (though you cant give all the credit to wade, because Butler and Odom probably had more to do with the regular season wins than Wade) brings the team to 42 wins, sends the Heat to the second round, and then Wins 2 games against a 60 win team. Then the next year he raises his play to an All NBA level when Shaq comes along. Then the next year they go to the finals, where Wade actually raises his level of play by a large margin and won the championship. Then two years later, he come back from an injury, and leads a 15 win team, with only Beasley added, to 43 wins. He is definitely better than Lebron.

Well if Lebron is a top 20 player of all time... Than Wade is top 19.

He has accomplished more than Bron and his numbers are just as good. Yeah Bron has a MVP title, but wade has a [B]Finals MVP[/B].

As do paul pierce, jojo White, Billups, Cornbread, worthy, Tony Parker, and Joe Dumars. **** John Starks has one if not for Hakeems pinky getting on that shot in game 6. Finals MVPs are more likely than regular season MVPs to be less than all time great because you have to have a great team to get one. And you can win it with one or two good games. A single good matchup in a series can win a finals MVP.

You will never see a guy like Maxwell win a real MVP. The title is relevant. The finals MVP is....something. But on average id say its a lesser player than the actual MVP. There are finals MVPs who put up 12/9 i nthe playoffs and 11/8 in the regular season. And its not even one of the guys I mentioned above. And other guy(Unseld) won one waaaay past his prime years past his last all star game as an 8/12 player on a fantastic team.

You have to be a key player on a good team to be finals MVP. You gnerally have to be exceptional to be a real MVP.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]As do paul pierce, jojo White, Billups, Cornbread, worthy, Tony Parker, and Joe Dumars. **** John Starks has one if not for Hakeems pinky getting on that shot in game 6. Finals MVPs are more likely than regular season MVPs to be less than all time great because you have to have a great team to get one. And you can win it with one or two good games. A single good matchup in a series can win a finals MVP.

You will never see a guy like Maxwell win a real MVP. The title is relevant. The finals MVP is....something. But on average id say its a lesser player than the actual MVP. There are finals MVPs who put up 12/9 i nthe playoffs and 11/8 in the regular season. And its not even one of the guys I mentioned above. And other guy(Unseld) won one waaaay past his prime years past his last all star game as an 8/12 player on a fantastic team.

You have to be a key player on a good team to be finals MVP. You gnerally have to be exceptional to be a real MVP.[/QUOTE]


True, but wades finals MVP was not a "right place at the right time" situation. He carried that team, he dominated that series in ways that few swingman in history have been able to.

Infact, compare wades Finals MVP numbers to anyone in history... and you tell me...

I dont include Wade on the "Not all that great..." finals MVP list. He earned it. 100%. He was Jordan like that series. Im just saying that a finals MVP in and of itself doesnt make you greater than those without it. at least not in the way an MVP(usually...) does.

Also...Wade last year was as good as or better than the MVP was in at least 5 seasons of the last 15.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Also...Wade last year was as good as or better than the MVP was in at least 5 seasons of the last 15.[/QUOTE]

Which five? I don't disagree...just curious.

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]Which five? I don't disagree...just curious.[/QUOTE]


I'm sure it would include Nash's MVPs. That... I would agree with

Kblaze, I think you're asking the question backwards. It's not "What did any of these(the players you threw into the dirt) guys do that Lebron didn't?" It's "What has Lebron done that any of those guys haven't?" And until he wins a ring(as the best player on his team) that's how the question should stay.

Look, I like Lebron, I think he's a good kid(although a bit egotistical, but who wouldn't be with his level of sucess so far?) and I seriously hope he does win a ring as the best player on a team because if he doesn't, well, let's just say that the media's been hyping him since day 1. And if he doesn't deliver, everyone will blame him, even though it was the media who constantly force fed him down everyone's throat, saying he's the next Michael, that's all they care about, a story.

And if he doesn't win in the next 6 years(6 chances left) Then he will probably move down to second best player on a team. And if that happens, I really really really hope he does win a ring. Because not winning your whole carrer sucks for a great player.

The guy is 6'9 and 260 yet he has no post game. And if you say that is because he is a perimeter player then you have to know he has a poor mid range game(Spurs 07 finals trapping pick and roll).

And if you want to say that Oscar was a product of his era than I have two words for you.

Hand Checking. That's the reason Lebron is so dominate now. He is a great player, but not yet top 25, these are the guys I would take ahead of him off the top of my head, not in order.

Magic
Jordan
Bird
Chamberlain
Russel
Abdul Jabbar
Mosses
Barkley
Dr. J
Oscar
West
Walton
Gervin
Isiah
Shaq
Kobe
Pippen
Malone
Ewing
Robinson
Olajuwan
Duncan
Kidd
Webber
Garnett


That's 25 and I'm missing some I'm sure. Again, I like the guy and I think he is great, but he has a long way to go...

[QUOTE=ElBronco]Kblaze, I think you're asking the question backwards. It's not "What did any of these(the players you threw into the dirt) guys do that Lebron didn't?" It's "What has Lebron done that any of those guys haven't?" And until he wins a ring(as the best player on his team) that's how the question should stay.

Look, I like Lebron, I think he's a good kid(although a bit egotistical, but who wouldn't be with his level of sucess so far?) and I seriously hope he does win a ring as the best player on a team because if he doesn't, well, let's just say that the media's been hyping him since day 1. And if he doesn't deliver, everyone will blame him, even though it was the media who constantly force fed him down everyone's throat, saying he's the next Michael, that's all they care about, a story.

And if he doesn't win in the next 6 years(6 chances left) Then he will probably move down to second best player on a team. And if that happens, I really really really hope he does win a ring. Because not winning your whole carrer sucks for a great player.

The guy is 6'9 and 260 yet he has no post game. And if you say that is because he is a perimeter player then you have to know he has a poor mid range game(Spurs 07 finals trapping pick and roll).

And if you want to say that Oscar was a product of his era than I have two words for you.

Hand Checking. That's the reason Lebron is so dominate now. He is a great player, but not yet top 25, these are the guys I would take ahead of him off the top of my head, not in order.

Magic
Jordan
Bird
Chamberlain
Russel
Abdul Jabbar
Mosses
Barkley
Dr. J
Oscar
West
Walton
Gervin
Isiah
Shaq
Kobe
Pippen
Malone
Ewing
Robinson
Olajuwan
Duncan
Kidd
Webber
Garnett


That's 25 and I'm missing some I'm sure. Again, I like the guy and I think he is great, but he has a long way to go...[/QUOTE]

Wow. Pippen? Kidd? Webber? Gervin? Even picking guys like Isiah and KG is a bit crazy. I hope you're not talking about prime, and you're talking about careers. When you say you would take them ahead of him, you don't mean to start a team right?

[QUOTE=ElBronco]Kblaze, I think you're asking the question backwards. It's not "What did any of these(the players you threw into the dirt) guys do that Lebron didn't?" It's "What has Lebron done that any of those guys haven't?" And until he wins a ring(as the best player on his team) that's how the question should stay.

Look, I like Lebron, I think he's a good kid(although a bit egotistical, but who wouldn't be with his level of sucess so far?) and I seriously hope he does win a ring as the best player on a team because if he doesn't, well, let's just say that the media's been hyping him since day 1. And if he doesn't deliver, everyone will blame him, even though it was the media who constantly force fed him down everyone's throat, saying he's the next Michael, that's all they care about, a story.

And if he doesn't win in the next 6 years(6 chances left) Then he will probably move down to second best player on a team. And if that happens, I really really really hope he does win a ring. Because not winning your whole carrer sucks for a great player.

The guy is 6'9 and 260 yet he has no post game. And if you say that is because he is a perimeter player then you have to know he has a poor mid range game(Spurs 07 finals trapping pick and roll).

And if you want to say that Oscar was a product of his era than I have two words for you.

Hand Checking. That's the reason Lebron is so dominate now. He is a great player, but not yet top 25, these are the guys I would take ahead of him off the top of my head, not in order.

Magic
Jordan
Bird
Chamberlain
Russel
Abdul Jabbar
Mosses
Barkley
Dr. J
Oscar
West
Walton
Gervin
Isiah
Shaq
Kobe
Pippen
Malone
Ewing
Robinson
Olajuwan
Duncan
Kidd
Webber
Garnett


That's 25 and I'm missing some I'm sure. Again, I like the guy and I think he is great, but he has a long way to go...[/QUOTE]
Nice way to look at it.

Didn't go through the list you provided, but your reasoning makes sense.

[QUOTE=guy]Wow. Pippen? Kidd? Webber? Gervin? Even picking guys like Isiah and KG is a bit crazy. I hope you're not talking about prime, and you're talking about careers. When you say you would take them ahead of him, you don't mean to start a team right?[/QUOTE]
It's not his fault. It is like KBlaze said I guess. We are not ready to call a 24 year old top 20.