Pau Gasol vs. Dirk Nowitzki

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]What logic is this based on? I have heard several posters say this and I don't understand it. Would you rather have Gasol as your #2 option than Lebron because Gasol has done well as the #2 option and Lebron is an unknown in that role?

This "option" stuff is vastly overrated on ISH. When Jordan retired Pippen took one more shot a game. In other words, on the court his role was basically the same as it was with Jordan. Pippen himself has said this. Did that extra shot make him a better player?[/QUOTE]

it was brought up to bring discussion. notice the question mark.

I know. I am not asking you in particular but the half a dozen or so posters in this thread who have said they would rather have Gasol as their #2. It is a good question.

[QUOTE=LA_Showtime]i was asking a question. i hardly qualify that as a statement.[/QUOTE]
Oh, I thought it was sarcasm, like you were stating something by asking a question that seemed obvious. My bad

I like Gasol, and he fits into the Triangle really well. Having said that, ARE YOU F"NG KIDDING ME?!? Dirk on the Lakers would be, as I have said in the past, redirkulous.

[QUOTE=elementally morale]Dirk is a top 5 player this year, Gasol is top10. There is the answer: Dirk is better. Speaking of their careers, NBA-wise it's Dirk. In the FIBA compteitions it's Gasol, due to having had a better team. (Both of them play very well at international events.) [/quote]

Dirk has easily played better in most FIBA competitions. Pau isn't even demanding half the defensive attention Dirk is, be it FIBA or NBA games.

[quote] Defensively, Pau is better and he is a bit more efficient with the ball. [/quote]

how in bloody hell is Pau more efficient with the ball than Dirk. Are you aware of Dirk's ridiculously low TO rates considering that he is the #1 option on his team for years? Even as the #2 option alongside Kobe and one of the most stacked teams of this decade Pau is averaging more TOs than Dirk.

[quote]
Still, overall I take Dirk. He is a top50 player of all time for sure. Let's see how he ends his career to get into more details.[/QUOTE]

Dirk is a top 30 player of all time as of right now, and top 5 this past decade.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Who is the better player? He has had the better career thus far? Who had the better peak? They play the same position and are similar in age (Dirk is 31, Gasol 29).

[B][U]Dirk Nowitzki[/U][/B]

2007 MVP
4x all-NBA first team
3x all-NBA second team
2x all-NBA third team
3x Top 3 in MVP voting
7x top 10 in MVP voting
8x all-star
Led his team to nine straight 50+ win seasons

[B][U]Pau Gasol
[/U][/B]

1x all-NBA third team
2x all-star
2002 Rookie of the Year
2009 NBA champion

[B]Stats[/B]

[U]Dirk[/U]

Career: 23/9/3
Peak: 27/9/3 (probably not his best season but statistically his best year)

[U]Pau[/U]

Career: 19/9/3
Peak: 21/10/3 (not his best season but statistically his best year)

I go with Dirk for all three. Dirk is top 40 all-time imo.[/QUOTE]


Dirk... what an easy question to answer

I'm not sure Dirk is Top 30. But Simmons is amending what he said earlier in his own book:

[quote]To answer your rankings question about my book from five tangents ago, I have many small regrets (to be expected) and one big one: Putting Iverson (No. 29) too high. That was the one Pyramid-related instance of my affection for someone clouding my judgment to some degree. If I could do it over again, Level 3 of the Pyramid would start with George Mikan at No. 36, then the George Gervin/Sam Jones combo, then Iverson at No. 33, then Kevin McHale, then Dave Cowens and Willis Reed. But as I rattle off this group again, I'm realizing that Dirk (the league's best clutch scorer and its third most important player behind LeBron and Kobe) and Nash (having a vintage Nash season and reinventing the whole "D'Antoni's offense made Nash" argument to the point that you could make a much better case that Nash made D'Antoni) are enjoying such renaissances that they might have bulldozed their way into Level 3. So maybe Nash jumps to No. 36 and Dirk vaults past Iverson to No. 32.[/quote]

[QUOTE]how in bloody hell is Pau more efficient with the ball than Dirk.[/QUOTE]

By shooting a higher % and having more assists. That is offensive efficiency with the ball in your hand.


[QUOTE]Dirk has easily played better in most FIBA competitions.[/QUOTE]

I said both of them played well and Pau had more success. What's wrong with this assessment?


[QUOTE]
Dirk is a top 30 player of all time as of right now[/QUOTE]

If I put everyone in the top 30 people claim is a top 30 player, I'd have like 50-60 players there already. I'm not saying it's out of the question Dirk will be top 30 when it's all said and done, but I find it hard to make a place for him there for now. Top 40 is more like it, I think. But let's wait until he finishes his career and rate him then.

[quote=Locked_Up_Tonight]I'm not sure Dirk is Top 30. But Simmons is amending what he said earlier in his own book:[/quote]Is there a link to BS's all time NBA Ranking list?

[QUOTE=vert48]Is there a link to BS's all time NBA Ranking list?[/QUOTE]


He changed it two times since the book got published. Moved Shaq futher down and Kobe up for example. He should have wated a few more years until Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Garnett, Iverson et al. retire to be able to make better, longer-lasting standings.

[quote=elementally morale]He changed it two times since the book got published. Moved Shaq futher down and Kobe up for example. He should have wated a few more years until Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Garnett, Iverson et al. retire to be able to make better, longer-lasting standings.[/quote]It is always going to be a moving target. Link to current list?

[QUOTE=vert48]It is always going to be a moving target. Link to current list?[/QUOTE]

I have only his top 10 (now top 11) at hand. When the book came out it was:


10. Hakeem Olajuwon
09. Oscar Robertson
08. Jerry West
07. Tim Duncan
06. Wilt Chamberlain
05. Larry Bird
04. Magic Johnson
03. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
02. Bill Russell
01. Michael Jordan


And Shaq was at #12 and Kobe at #15. Simmons wrote a few weeks ago that he puts Kobe at #9 now and is thinking of pushing Shaq a bit down.

[QUOTE=elementally morale]By shooting a higher % and having more assists. That is offensive efficiency with the ball in your hand. [/quote]

you're not saying he is a better offensive player, are you? He shoots a higher percentage basically because he isn't a #1 option anymore and shoots less overall, not because he is a better scorer.

Anyways, I can't believe we're really comparing a go-to guy superstar to a complimentary offensive player. Pau was never really good enough to have the role of a Dirk, Kobe, Wade offensively, which is why he has never taken more than 15.4 shots per game, which he did on 48% shooting. Despite Gasols great passing, Dirk is pretty easily and obviously the better offensive player.



[quote]
I said both of them played well and Pau had more success. What's wrong with this assessment?[/quote]

we're ranking individual players here, and Pau simply had far better teammates, which is the only reason he has won more than Dirk. Dirk lead Germany, a team with no other relevant international player, to a silver medal at ECs and a bronze medal at WCs.



[quote]
If I put everyone in the top 30 people claim is a top 30 player, I'd have like 50-60 players there already. I'm not saying it's out of the question Dirk will be top 30 when it's all said and done, but I find it hard to make a place for him there for now. Top 40 is more like it, I think. But let's wait until he finishes his career and rate him then.[/QUOTE]

Dirk is pretty much in that Clyde Drexler category or even higher, depends on how much value his MVP and leading the league in PER twice. And we surely do agree that Drexler is top 30 at the very least.

[QUOTE]you're not saying he is a better offensive player, are you?[/QUOTE]


No, I'm not. I'm saying he is more efficient with the ball in his hand. It's like saying Nash is more efficient with the ball in his hand than Kobe Bryant is. it is true, and it still wont't make nash a better offensive player (he is on par though or very very close, I have to admit).


[QUOTE]Dirk is pretty easily and obviously the better offensive player.[/QUOTE]


Noone argued otherwise, I have certainly not. Dirk is the better offensive player, yes. And Gasol is the better defensive player. Dirk had better teammates in the NBA, resulting is more success as the #1. Gasol had better teammates in FIBA, resulting in more success as the #1.

With all this said, I'd take Dirk as well (as I said here more than once). I just don't think the difference is huge.



[QUOTE]
Dirk is pretty much in that Clyde Drexler category[/QUOTE]


Maybe. I saw Drexler play... I'm not sure, but it's not out of the question.



[QUOTE]we surely do agree that Drexler is top 30 at the very least.[/QUOTE]


We don't. He is borderline top 30, but I'd put him a bit lower.

[quote=elementally morale]I have only his top 10 (now top 11) at hand. When the book came out it was:


10. Hakeem Olajuwon
09. Oscar Robertson
08. Jerry West
07. Tim Duncan
06. Wilt Chamberlain
05. Larry Bird
04. Magic Johnson
03. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
02. Bill Russell
01. Michael Jordan


And Shaq was at #12 and Kobe at #15. Simmons wrote a few weeks ago that he puts Kobe at #9 now and is thinking of pushing Shaq a bit down.[/quote]Interesting. Simmons said last year at the All-Star break that Kobe would be top 10 if he won the title that year. He assumed either the Cavs or Celtics would beat the Lakers without Bynum at full strength, but then had to make good on his quote after people called him on it when the book came out.