1994 Knicks vs Bulls Game 3. What was Pippen thinking?

[QUOTE]Wrong time to try to outsmart the field. I can only imagine the scrutiny that guy would have faced if he decided to run a play for a guy that didn't play the whole fourth quarter when you got the most unstoppable offensive force during his peak physical prime on your team and who is having an EPIC game. Wow. We would have never seen Doug Collins again.[/QUOTE]

I agree. :roll: I am glad it worked out. Collins is my favorite analyst after Hubie Brown.

How would you compare Detroit's thuggery to the early 90's Knicks? Pippen was tripped twice in one game in the 94' series. That is just one player and just one game!

[QUOTE]Kukoc saved the Bulls from a sweep.[/QUOTE]

In a way perhaps. They probably would have won Game 4 out of pride and determination but I agree that if he missed the series would be over. There would be no Game 7, no Hue Hollins stealing Game 5 and a 3-2 series lead from the Bulls with what many believe was the worst call in NBA history (ESPN poll, 7th worst call ever and #1 among NBA calls, #2 in basketball history behind the call in favor of the Soviets in 72' or 76'). However, Kukoc averaged 8/3 in that series on poor shooting. Let's not magnify his role.

I agree, though, that if the Bulls lost that game they would have been toast--just as they would have been toast if they lost Game 3 in the 93' ECF. Remember who stepped up with 29 points on 83% shooting that game? If you credit Kukoc for one shot you have to credit your favorite Bull for 29 points on 83%. :D

[QUOTE]Yeah, if it was in the book, and no one denied it, it probably happened. If it didn't, there should have been some kind of lawsuit or statement by now.[/QUOTE]

Well, it wasn't big enough of a deal to warrant a lawsuit but if it didn't happen you would think there would have been a denial from Collins because it makes him look very bad.

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]Jordan had 18 points, 5 rebounds and 9 assists.

Here's the game for those interested. It's one of those games I want to update (add more footage and improve the quality) but there's enough for anyone to watch and make up their own minds.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/user/tjhunt76#g/c/E996199CF0192C40[/url]

My opinion is Jordan didn't shoot as much as he usually did or as much as he should have, but he didn't stop [I]playing[/I]. He still played great d, dished the ball... It wasn't the same as what Kobe did against the Suns where he totally stopped playing and camped out behind the 3 pt line. But that's my opinion.
[/QUOTE]

I agree. LOL @ equating that to Kobe's game 7 vs. the Suns or Pippen's sitting out. LOL @ equating that to quitting. A player doesn't get 9 assists by quitting. They don't put a ton of effort on the defensive end if they quit. Not to mention that there were a few instances in that game where Jordan gave a teammate a great open look and they just missed it, and there were also a few instances where Jordan jumped up for a shot and passed it to a teammate who had a better look at the last second. Kobe had 1 freaking assist in the game vs. the Suns.

And lol @ using Sam Smith as you're source in a book where he made it a point to highlight Jordan's flaws.

I'm not saying Jordan didn't subconsciously take less shots. He obviously did. But how do you know what his intentions were? How do you know he was trying to make a point? How do you know he wasn't genuinely just taking Doug Collins' advice and may have just overdone it (which has happened plenty of times in these situations)? How do you know he wasn't doing both?

I'm not saying Jordan had a good game. He definitely should've been more aggressive. All I'm saying is using a paragraph from Sam Smith's Jordan's Rules as a source and passing it off as completely reliable is not exactly right. And equating that to "quitting" and to those other two games is definitely not right.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]
I agree, though, that if the Bulls lost that game they would have been toast--just as they would have been toast if they lost Game 3 in the 93' ECF. Remember who stepped up with 29 points on 83% shooting that game? If you credit Kukoc for one shot you have to credit your favorite Bull for 29 points on 83%. :D [/QUOTE]

Kudos to Scottie for an awesome scoring performance, but give credit to Jordan for having a near triple double as well. He led the team in assists and rebounds that game plus he added 2 steals and two blocks. It was almost as if they switched roles for the game, Scottie handling scoring duties and Jordan switching his priorities to passing, playing defense(Starks was destroyed that game) and grabbing boards.

Just to be clear, both were awesome that night aside from Jordan's poor shooting which can't be denied.

What do you expect? 0/0/0? Even Vince Carter was still scoring 16 ppg when he "quit" in Toronto (28 ppg when he left!). This applies to other sports. When Moss quit did he have 0 catches? When Jarno Trulli wanted to make a point he finish last? No, he ran mid-pack all race and then ran by far his fastest lap on the final one to make a point.

[QUOTE]I'm not saying Jordan didn't subconsciously take less shots. He obviously did. But how do you know what his intentions were? How do you know he was trying to make a point? How do you know he wasn't genuinely just taking Doug Collins' advice and may have just overdone it (which has happened plenty of times in these situations)? How do you know he wasn't doing both?[/QUOTE]

No one can know for sure. There is circumstantial evidence to look at.

28 FGA in 15 games, 8 FGA in that game.

From 1991 onward we have game logs for the playoffs. Here is the lowest number of shots MJ took in any playoff game in each season:

1991: 15
1992: 22
1993: 18
1995: 19
1996: 14
1997: 15
1998: 14

If you want to believe it is just a coincidence that his FGA never approached 8 in [I]any[/I] game through six championship runs more power to you. If you want to believe he went from 28 FGA in the playoffs to 8 (25 in the very next game) coincidentally more power to you. The circumstantial evidence is clear.

Sam Smith knows more about the inner workings of that team than anyone here. He can't be summarily dismissed.

[QUOTE]Kudos to Scottie for an awesome scoring performance, but give credit to Jordan for having a near triple double as well. He led the team in assists and rebounds that game plus he added 2 steals and two blocks. It was almost as if they switched roles for the game, Scottie handling scoring duties and Jordan switching his priorities to passing, playing defense(Starks was destroyed that game) and grabbing boards.

Just to be clear, both were awesome that night aside from Jordan's poor shooting which can't be denied.[/QUOTE]

:applause: I agree. I aimed that comment only at duncan. He has said before that Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong>Pippen's importance on the 94' Bulls so I couldn't pass up the opportunity presented by his comments on 8/3 Kukoc by mentioning what Pippen did in 93'.

MJ did have a triple double in that series. I think it was Game 5. That is one reason he won so many championships. Even when he shot poorly he could do so many other things to help his team. He almost even led the team in rebounding in the 97' playoffs (Rodman averaged only 8 boards that year in the playoffs. He averaged more technical than rebounds that year :oldlol: ).

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]:applause: I agree. I aimed that comment only at duncan. He has said before that Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong>Pippen's importance on the 94' Bulls so I couldn't pass up the opportunity presented by his comments on 8/3 Kukoc by mentioning what Pippen did in 93'.[/quote]

Understood. :)

[quote]MJ did have a triple double in that series. I think it was Game 5. That is one reason he won so many championships. Even when he shot poorly he could do so many other things to help his team. He almost even led the team in rebounding in the 97' playoffs (Rodman averaged only 8 boards that year in the playoffs. He averaged more technical than rebounds that year :oldlol: ).[/QUOTE]

Agreed on Jordan. I'm not sure what happened to Rodman in the 97 playoffs, although I heard that he just wasn't getting his head in the games. I thought he redeemed himself a bit when he nearly played the whole season the next year and helped Chicago deal with losing Scottie for nearly half the year, though as well as giving Malone a headache at certain periods of the Finals.

[QUOTE=Mister JT]But Roundball_Rock, you are getting overly defensive. You talk about the trolls that could come in this thread, yet you look at his username and avatar, and reply by posting something negative about Magic Johnson. Why don't you start the thread about Magic running Westhead out of town?

Then you dictate what legit replies are supposed to look like.

Anyway, I remember that the incident was not a big deal to me personally. We didn't get full coverage of the playoffs back then with preview shows and post game analyses. All we got was live games and the newspaper recaps. Kukoc made the shot. The Bulls won. I was happy.

Even the Pippen-Jordan spat in game 1 of the 98 finals was not a big deal to me. I knew they were veterans and would come back stronger. And they did.[/QUOTE]

He's a pip fanboy, so he gets a bit defensive. i mean he actually thinks pip with mitch richmond, kevin johnson and rik smits would top 6 rings in the 90s. so he thinks they could win 7 rings in the 90s. with that lineup.

yeah.

[QUOTE=EricForman]He's a pip fanboy, so he gets a bit defensive. i mean he actually thinks pip with mitch richmond, kevin johnson and rik smits would top 6 rings in the 90s. so he thinks they could win 7 rings in the 90s. with that lineup.

yeah.[/QUOTE]

Pippen/Johnson/Richmond/Smits/Grant>Garnett/Pierce/Allen/Rondo/Perkins. They may not have won six but they would be the favorites practically every year from 91' to 97' or 98'. The team MJ fans kept citing as the team that would stop them was the 0 championship Knicks. That "juggernaut" had trouble with Indiana (Pippen/Johnson/Richmond>Miller/Smits/Davis) and needed the refs to bail them out against Pippen/Grant/Armstrong/and scrubs in 94'. Yet they were going to dominate Pippen/Johnson/Richmond/Smits/Grant? :roll:

You could post a hypothetical about Pippen playing with Kareem, Duncan, Magic and Kobe and MJ fans would still argue he wouldn't win anything even though he came within 2 minutes of a ring with Rasheed Wallace/Steve Smith in 00' while past his prime (with prime Pippen that team wins) and we all know about Hollins and 94'. :oldlol: @ MJ fans claiming the Knicks would have won Game 6 if they lost Game 5. They lost 15 of 16 in Chicago and something like 8 or 9 straight by the end of 1994.

[QUOTE]Agreed on Jordan. I'm not sure what happened to Rodman in the 97 playoffs, although I heard that he just wasn't getting his head in the games. I thought he redeemed himself a bit when he nearly played the whole season the next year and helped Chicago deal with losing Scottie for nearly half the year, though as well as giving Malone a headache at certain periods of the Finals.[/QUOTE]

It's Rodman. You never know what is going on with Rodman, even to this day. :oldlol: Was 97' the year his popularity peaked? Was that the year of the book tour, the Carmen Electra gimmick marriage, etc.?

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]What do you expect? 0/0/0? Even Vince Carter was still scoring 16 ppg when he "quit" in Toronto (28 ppg when he left!). This applies to other sports. When Moss quit did he have 0 catches? When Jarno Trulli wanted to make a point he finish last? No, he ran mid-pack all race and then ran by far his fastest lap on the final one to make a point. [/QUOTE]

So you're comparing 1 game of Jordan's to 20 games of Vince's?

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]
No one can know for sure. There is circumstantial evidence to look at.

28 FGA in 15 games, 8 FGA in that game.

From 1991 onward we have game logs for the playoffs. Here is the lowest number of shots MJ took in any playoff game in each season:

1991: 15
1992: 22
1993: 18
1995: 19
1996: 14
1997: 15
1998: 14

If you want to believe it is just a coincidence that his FGA never approached 8 in [I]any[/I] game through six championship runs more power to you. If you want to believe he went from 28 FGA in the playoffs to 8 (25 in the very next game) coincidentally more power to you. The circumstantial evidence is clear. [/QUOTE]

I don't think its a coincidence. Jordan was asked by his coach to shoot less and pass more. So he did. That doesn't mean his intentions were bad. Did you even watch the game? IMO I don't see how you can call what he did "quitting". Like Da Realist said, he didn't camp out behind the 3point line like Kobe did, and he didn't take himself out of the game like Pippen did. Jordan still put a ton of effort in that game. Thats not quitting. Its obvious he went overboard and was TOO passive, but that doesn't mean he had bad intentions.


Of course, maybe he did have somewhat bad intentions and was trying to make a point (doesn't mean he quit, cause if you watch that game its clear he didn't). All I'm saying is one paragraph without much detail from a book by a biased journalist with an agenda who's main objective was to greatly highlight Jordan's flaws isn't a great source and doesn't hold much weight to me and IMO probably does not to most people.


[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]
Sam Smith knows more about the inner workings of that team than anyone here. He can't be summarily dismissed.
[/QUOTE]

Of course he shouldn't. I'm sure whatever Sam has said in the past does have some truth to it. But as a journalist who's had an agenda against Jordan, you can't dismiss the great possibility that he greatly exaggerates and twists the truths in order to fit that agenda.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]They may not have won six but they would be the favorites practically every year from 91' to 97' or 98'.[/QUOTE]

No, they would not. Anyone who believes they would be the favorites pratically every year to win it all is stupid. :rolleyes:

All good points, guy.

[QUOTE=raptorfan_dr07]No, they would not. Anyone who believes they would be the favorites pratically every year to win it all is stupid. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Been there, done that. There was a long thread on it. The one team MJ fans (no one else obsessed with dissing that team and I notice that aren't dissing the Jordan/Pippen/Malone hypothetical and they positively gushed about MJ/Hakeem/Drexler) kept pointing to as the savior was the Knicks.

Stupid? Dazzle us with your brilliance. Who would be favored over them in 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, and 1998? Give specific teams for specific years, not a generic "the Knicks", "Seattle." That scenario had the best SF of the 90's, the second or third best SG of the 90's, the second or third best PG of the 90's playing with two all-star caliber big men with players like BJ Armstrong and Toni Kukoc leading the bench. What teams boasted a better roster?

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]All good points, guy.



Been there, done that. There was a long thread on it. The one team MJ fans (no one else obsessed with dissing that team and I notice that aren't dissing the Jordan/Pippen/Malone hypothetical and they positively gushed about MJ/Hakeem/Drexler) kept pointing to as the savior was the Knicks.

Stupid? Dazzle us with your brilliance. Who would be favored over them in 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, and 1998? Give specific teams for specific years, not a generic "the Knicks", "Seattle." That scenario had the best SF of the 90's, the second or third best SG of the 90's, the second or third best PG of the 90's playing with two all-star caliber big men with players like BJ Armstrong and Toni Kukoc leading the bench. What teams boasted a better roster?[/QUOTE]

Raptorsfan where are you? people don't hang around when they can't handle the truth :confusedshrug:

I didn't read this topic, but the Pippen hate really bothers me. This guy was one of the best defensive players of all time and he voluntarily allowed himself to be a #2 option for 6 title runs.

And don't forget that he was the leader of a team that almost upset Kobe/Shaq in 2000.

Hmm... he was thinking "I've had a terrible, terrible game. I don't want to lose it for my team." Nice try though.

[quote=1987_Lakers][URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Flqc9tSmfxE&feature=video_response"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Flqc9tSmfxE&feature=video_response[/URL]
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtF-DtYBi8E"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtF-DtYBi8E[/URL]

The game in which Phil Jackson went to Kukoc for the game winning shot instead of Pippen. And Pippen at the worst possible time let his insecurities get to him and exploded with anger. Go to the first vid and skip to 9:13, Pippen wanted the Bulls to inbound him the ball with 1.8 sec left. What was Pippen thinking? Why didn't Pippen want the timeout? Maybe he knew Jackson was going with Kukoc for the Final shot instead of him. And if you notice in the second vid, Pippen is not even on the floor for the Bulls final possession and he is no where to be found after Kukoc hit the game winning shot. I'm sorry, but this is a total dick move by Pippen. I bring the subject up because it seems like everyone has forgotten about the incident, just refreshing people's minds.[/quote]

i watched this game live and when it all went down, i just couldnt believe it. i had never seen a pro athlete do anything like pippen did at a time like this

it is one of the reasons that my respect for pippen dropped tremendously after this incident-- no matter how much he tried to apologize afterwards

[QUOTE=Bodhi]I didn't read this topic, but the Pippen hate really bothers me. This guy was one of the best defensive players of all time and he voluntarily allowed himself to be a #2 option for 6 title runs.

And don't forget that he was the leader of a team that almost upset Kobe/Shaq in 2000.[/QUOTE]

I don't think that you can say that he VOLUNTARILY ALLOWED himself to be the number 2 option for 6 title runs. He wasn't gonna be the Bulls' number 1 option as long as MJ was playing, even if he tried his absolute best to be one.

However, if you mean that he STUCK IT OUT with the Bulls longer than he had to, despite how Krause treated him, to win 5 or 6 championships instead of maybe 4 or 5, then I agree with you.