Re: There is one reason why Michael Jordan is the greatest of all-time
Shit I just realized , it's close to the NBA championship and new threads of how great Kobe is compared to Jordan was will come out of the woodwork.
Jasper - stay out of MJ Kobe threads till October .....
Re: There is one reason why Michael Jordan is the greatest of all-time
One of the thing that stands out to me about Jordan is he won against teams with obviously more talented supporting casts. How often does that happen? Rick Barry did it, and I don't really know of another. Walton did too now that I think of it, and probably one or two other I forgot. The point is it doesn't happen often. Barely ever.
Re: There is one reason why Michael Jordan is the greatest of all-time
[QUOTE=AK47DR91]I think everybody is overrating Jordan's supporting cast. Aside from Pippen, the rest were role players and this includes Rodman. Rodman was a role player, a great one in rebounding and defending!
The thing is, they knew how to play their role.
I would say 70% of the Bulls success was because of Jordan. Th other 30% goes to Pippen, supporting cast and coaching staff.
You'll think that Pippen, Phil and the supporting cast would have been beaten Ewing, Barkley, Malone, Stockton, etc without Jordan?
In fact, I believe the Knicks took out the Bulls in '94 when MJ was playing minor league baseball.
Jordan from 1986-1998 is/was the greatest player of all-times. He didn't win any championships in the late 80's but his greatness was already there.
He dropped 63 on Bird and the Celtics at the old Boston Garden. His team lost but his greatness was there.
Jordan's talented supporting cast only added championship to his greatness. They didn't make him great because he was already great.[/QUOTE]
Actually Jordan's supporting cast is probably the most [B][U]UNDERRATED IN NBA HISTORY.[/U][/B]
Below is some factual info in regard to Jordan's supporting cast that I posted in another thread a few days ago.
Jordan and the Bulls won the title in 1993.
The Bulls won 57 games that year.
Before the 1994 season, Jordan retired. This is gives us a real good "apples to apples" comparison as to just how good Jordan's supporting cast really was.
The following year without Jordan (1994), the Bulls with Pippen, Grant etc. won 55 games and still advanced to the second round of the playoffs. There was only a 2 game difference between the Bulls in 1993 vs 1994 even without the remarkable Jordan.
Here is a look at how Bulls (without Jordan) faired in 1994 against the compeition that included some HOF all time great players.
Here are the records of some notable teams in 1994.
Houston Rockets 58-24- Hakeem Olajuwon is in the prime of his career. He is voted MVP and Defensive Player of the Year. He is regarded as the best player in the world. He is MVP of the NBA finals.
New York Knicks 57-25- Patrick Ewing is in the prime of his career. So is John Starks. Pat Riley is the head coach. Yet they are only 2 games better than the Jordanless Bulls.
Phoenix Suns 56-26- Charles Barkley is in the prime of his career. He was MVP of the league last year.
San Antonio Spurs 55-27-David Robinson is in the prime of his career. He leads the NBA in scoring at 29.8 points per game. Rodman is at his peak too. He leads the NBA in rebounding at 17.3 per contest.
*******Chicago Bulls 55-27- No Jordan, no problem. With Pippen, Grant and Head coach Phil Jackson the Bulls have no problem hanging with the NBA
Re: There is one reason why Michael Jordan is the greatest of all-time
[QUOTE=t-rex]Actually Jordan's supporting cast is probably the most [B][U]UNDERRATED IN NBA HISTORY.[/U][/B]
Below is some factual info in regard to Jordan's supporting cast that I posted in another thread a few days ago.
Jordan and the Bulls won the title in 1993.
The Bulls won 57 games that year.
Before the 1994 season, Jordan retired. This is gives us a real good "apples to apples" comparison as to just how good Jordan's supporting cast really was.
The following year without Jordan (1994), the Bulls with Pippen, Grant etc. won 55 games and still advanced to the second round of the playoffs. There was only a 2 game difference between the Bulls in 1993 vs 1994 even without the remarkable Jordan.
Here is a look at how Bulls (without Jordan) faired in 1994 against the compeition that included some HOF all time great players.
Here are the records of some notable teams in 1994.
Houston Rockets 58-24- Hakeem Olajuwon is in the prime of his career. He is voted MVP and Defensive Player of the Year. He is regarded as the best player in the world. He is MVP of the NBA finals.
New York Knicks 57-25- Patrick Ewing is in the prime of his career. So is John Starks. Pat Riley is the head coach. Yet they are only 2 games better than the Jordanless Bulls.
Phoenix Suns 56-26- Charles Barkley is in the prime of his career. He was MVP of the league last year.
San Antonio Spurs 55-27-David Robinson is in the prime of his career. He leads the NBA in scoring at 29.8 points per game. Rodman is at his peak too. He leads the NBA in rebounding at 17.3 per contest.
*******Chicago Bulls 55-27- No Jordan, no problem. With Pippen, Grant and Head coach Phil Jackson the Bulls have no problem hanging with the NBA
Re: There is one reason why Michael Jordan is the greatest of all-time
[QUOTE=Soothsayer]Irrelevant. That 94 team had already added both Kerr and Kukoc, and the 93 team had coasted a bit during the regular season after the Olympics for both Pippen and Jordan. The previous season, the same team had won 67 games.
Put Jordan on that 94 team coming off a championship, with Grant, Pippen, And ADDING Kerr and Kukoc, and we are talking 70 wins or so.[/QUOTE]
IRRELEVANT? Kerr replaced Paxson, and Kukoc replaced Jordan...and the results were nearly identical. The Bulls won a title in '93, and were within a couple of points of beating a team in a game seven, that would lose a close game seven to the Rockets in the 94 Finals.
I can't think of ONE team that had more talent than the the Bulls in their six titles. And MJ's 95 Bulls were beaten by a Magic team that would get swept by the Rockets.
Look, if MJ is going to get the credit for the six rings, then he should get the blame for playing on FIVE losing teams in his career, too.
Re: There is one reason why Michael Jordan is the greatest of all-time
[QUOTE=jlauber]
I can't think of ONE team that had more talent than the the Bulls in their six titles.[/QUOTE]
Then you're not thinking hard enough. These teams had equal or superior talent:
'91 Pistons
'92 Knicks, Blazers, Cavs
'93 Suns, Knicks, Cavs
'96 Magic, Sonics
'98 Pacers
Hell, even teams that went out early like the '97 Hawks (Blaylock/Laettner/Smith/Deke) and '98 Nets (Cassell/Seikaly/Gatling/Gill/Williams/Kittles) had a lot of talent.
Re: There is one reason why Michael Jordan is the greatest of all-time
[QUOTE=jlauber]IRRELEVANT? Kerr replaced Paxson, and Kukoc replaced Jordan...and the results were nearly identical. The Bulls won a title in '93, and were within a couple of points of beating a team in a game seven, that would lose a close game seven to the Rockets in the 94 Finals.
I can't think of ONE team that had more talent than the the Bulls in their six titles. And MJ's 95 Bulls were beaten by a Magic team that would get swept by the Rockets.
Look, if MJ is going to get the credit for the six rings, then he should get the blame for playing on FIVE losing teams in his career, too.[/QUOTE]
Kukoc didn't replace Jordan. Pete Myers did. The bulls added the GOAT 3PT shooter in Kerr, and a versatile, albeit soft big man in Kukoc. Keeping Grant for rebounding and defending PF and the occasional center, and keeping Pippen to help defend the perimeter...and with MJ younger than in 96....yeah, you are talking an EPIC year in terms of wins....IF the Bulls decide not to coast through the regular season like they did in 93.
I'm guessing both Pip and Jordan would have rested some in the offseason, vs. 92 with the Olympics. So 94, adding Kerr, Kukoc, to a championship team ALREADY capable of 67 wins....yeah, you are looking at a good possibility of 70 wins.
Re: There is one reason why Michael Jordan is the greatest of all-time
[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]Then you're not thinking hard enough. These teams had equal or superior talent:
'91 Pistons
'92 Knicks, Blazers, Cavs
'93 Suns, Knicks, Cavs
'96 Magic, Sonics
'98 Pacers
Hell, even teams that went out early like the '97 Hawks (Blaylock/Laettner/Smith/Deke) and '98 Nets (Cassell/Seikaly/Gatling/Gill/Williams/Kittles) had a lot of talent.[/QUOTE]
Oh sure...if you take MJ out of the picture. Of course, you could say the same thing for Shaq on his Laker title teams, or Kobe on his titles team, or Magic on his Laker teams, or Russell on his.
There is not ONE team on your list that any more talent...PERIOD.
Re: There is one reason why Michael Jordan is the greatest of all-time
[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]Then you're not thinking hard enough. These teams had equal or superior talent:
'91 Pistons
'92 Knicks, Blazers, Cavs
'93 Suns, Knicks, Cavs
'96 Magic, Sonics
'98 Pacers
Hell, even teams that went out early like the '97 Hawks (Blaylock/Laettner/Smith/Deke) and '98 Nets (Cassell/Seikaly/Gatling/Gill/Williams/Kittles) had a lot of talent.[/QUOTE]
No doubt man. Many of the teams Jordan faced had superior talent to what he had for a supporting cast. Jordan was often the difference, and WHAT a difference. :cheers:
Re: There is one reason why Michael Jordan is the greatest of all-time
[QUOTE=Soothsayer][B]Kukoc didn't replace Jordan. Pete Myers did[/B]. The bulls added the GOAT 3PT shooter in Kerr, and a versatile, albeit soft big man in Kukoc. Keeping Grant for rebounding and defending PF and the occasional center, and keeping Pippen to help defend the perimeter...and with MJ younger than in 96....yeah, you are talking an EPIC year in terms of wins....IF the Bulls decide not to coast through the regular season like they did in 93.
I'm guessing both Pip and Jordan would have rested some in the offseason, vs. 92 with the Olympics. So 94, adding Kerr, Kukoc, to a championship team ALREADY capable of 67 wins....yeah, you are looking at a good possibility of 70 wins.[/QUOTE]
THAT explains why the Bulls had nearly the same record in '94. I always felt that Myers was a HOFer too.
Re: There is one reason why Michael Jordan is the greatest of all-time
[QUOTE=jlauber]THAT explains why the Bulls had nearly the same record in '94. I always felt that Myers was a HOFer too.[/QUOTE]
Actually, it's pretty obvious why the 93-94 team had nearly an identical record to the 92-93 team. Once again, that 94 team had already added both Kerr and Kukoc to a championship team, and the 93 team had coasted during the regular season after the Olympics for both Pippen and Jordan. The previous season, the [B]same team[/B] had won 67 games.
Put Jordan on that 94 team coming off a championship, with Grant, Pippen, And ADDING Kerr and Kukoc, and we are talking 70 wins or so, vs. 55 without him.
Re: There is one reason why Michael Jordan is the greatest of all-time
[QUOTE=Soothsayer]Actually, it's pretty obvious why the 93-94 team had nearly an identical record to the 92-93 team. Once again, that 94 team had already added both Kerr and Kukoc to a championship team, and the 93 team had coasted during the regular season after the Olympics for both Pippen and Jordan. The previous season, the [B]same team[/B] had won 67 games.
[B]Put Jordan on that 94 team coming off a championship, with Grant, Pippen, And ADDING Kerr and Kukoc, and we are talking 70 wins or so, vs. 55 without him[/B].[/QUOTE]
I am not disputing that MJ's presence would PROBABLY have led to another championship. BUT, the FACT remains that the Bulls were a LOADED team, withOUT him.
Jordan never carried a GOOD team to a title. Hell, he played on FIVE losers in his career. How come Kareem, D. Robinson, Bird, and Wilt, could take last-place teams to instant contenders...but Jordan could not?
Re: There is one reason why Michael Jordan is the greatest of all-time
[QUOTE=Alhazred]Roundball is going to chew you out when he reads that. Just thought I should warn you now.[/QUOTE]
Roundball compared Gasol to Marion ... That is funnnnyyyy:roll:
Re: There is one reason why Michael Jordan is the greatest of all-time
[QUOTE=jlauber]I am not disputing that MJ's presence would PROBABLY have led to another championship. BUT, the FACT remains that the Bulls were a LOADED team, withOUT him.
Jordan never carried a GOOD team to a title. Hell, he played on FIVE losers in his career. How come Kareem, D. Robinson, Bird, and Wilt, could take last-place teams to instant contenders...but Jordan could not?[/QUOTE]
The Bulls that Jordan had led and helped create were a championship, battle tested squad, with a nice squad in 93-94. But to say that they were only 2 game worse "without Jordan" is silly, considering Jordan already led the same squad that won 57 games in 1993 to 67 wins the previous year.
Plus, once again, the bulls added both Kerr and Kukoc who contributed a combined 50 minutes per night in the 93-94 season. Add Jordan to that, and you are looking at 70 or so wins in 93-94 vs. 55 without him.
Other than that, Jordan's career can stand on it's own and nothing really needs to be said to defend it.
Re: There is one reason why Michael Jordan is the greatest of all-time
[QUOTE=t-rex]Actually Jordan's supporting cast is probably the most [B][U]UNDERRATED IN NBA HISTORY.[/U][/B]
Below is some factual info in regard to Jordan's supporting cast that I posted in another thread a few days ago.
Jordan and the Bulls won the title in 1993.
The Bulls won 57 games that year.
Before the 1994 season, Jordan retired. This is gives us a real good "apples to apples" comparison as to just how good Jordan's supporting cast really was.
The following year without Jordan (1994), the Bulls with Pippen, Grant etc. won 55 games and still advanced to the second round of the playoffs. There was only a 2 game difference between the Bulls in 1993 vs 1994 even without the remarkable Jordan.
Here is a look at how Bulls (without Jordan) faired in 1994 against the compeition that included some HOF all time great players.
Here are the records of some notable teams in 1994.
Houston Rockets 58-24- Hakeem Olajuwon is in the prime of his career. He is voted MVP and Defensive Player of the Year. He is regarded as the best player in the world. He is MVP of the NBA finals.
New York Knicks 57-25- Patrick Ewing is in the prime of his career. So is John Starks. Pat Riley is the head coach. Yet they are only 2 games better than the Jordanless Bulls.
Phoenix Suns 56-26- Charles Barkley is in the prime of his career. He was MVP of the league last year.
San Antonio Spurs 55-27-David Robinson is in the prime of his career. He leads the NBA in scoring at 29.8 points per game. Rodman is at his peak too. He leads the NBA in rebounding at 17.3 per contest.
*******Chicago Bulls 55-27- No Jordan, no problem. With Pippen, Grant and Head coach Phil Jackson the Bulls have no problem hanging with the NBA