Defensive Player of The Year 1955-1982

[QUOTE=dankok8]While Kareem did dominate Wilt more individually in 1971-1972, there is little doubt that Wilt was more impactful defensively in that season. More DWS in less minutes. And he fueled those Laker fast breaks with his outlet passing as well as anyone ever ever did. Plus in 1972-1973, both Cowens and Haywood gave him fits. Spencer Haywood averaged 28.8/14.8... Cowens 31.3/19.8. In his last season, despite winning the rebounding the title, Wilt got killed on the glass by the 3 best rebounders in the game other than himself.

21.6 to 16.6 by Thurmond (7-0 in individual games)
18.0 to 16.0 by Kareem (5-1 in individual games)
19.8 to 14.5 by Cowens (3-1 in individual games)

15-2... Ouch!

[B]Cowens' Celtics had the best defense in the league. Dave won the MVP over Kareem based on his defensive impact[/B].[/QUOTE]

Actually the Bucks had the best defense in the league. They finished second in ppg allowed behind the Knicks (99.0 to NY's 98.2 ppg), and ran away with FG% against mark of .422 (next best team was at .434.) BTW, Wilt's Lakers were also a better defensive team than Cowen's Celtics.

The Bucks from '70-71 thru 73-74 were arguably the greatest defensive team in NBA history.

[QUOTE=dankok8]Here are my DPOY's going back. We're doing a DPOY project on another forum and we're currently on 1972-1973 so we still have a lot to research but I have some thoughts. My list is kind of similar to SHAQisGOAT...

1982 - Jack Sikma
1981 - Dennis Johnson
1980 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
1979 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
1978 - Bill Walton
1977 - Bobby Jones
1976 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
1975 - Elvin Hayes
1974 - Elvin Hayes
1973 - Dave Cowens
1972 - Wilt Chamberlain
1971 - Nate Thurmond
1970 - Willis Reed
1969 - Bill Russell
1968 - Wilt Chamberlain
1967 - Wilt Chamberlain

1957-1966 - Bill Russell[/QUOTE]

The two Elvin Hayes selections really baffle me. Not only was Hayes not considered the best defender at his position, he didn't guard the oppositions centers either. He was a shot blocker, and a good one. Picture Amare Stoudemire with timing and defensive instincts, so I can see why someone might think of him as a top flight defender. D.C had good defenses in the 70's, but those Bullet teams had great defensive front courts overall. Unseld was a great help defender and could hold his own with most of the centers in the league. Dandridge was a top-notch defender and before him Riordan brought all-defensive team credentials to the table. Everyone did what they were best at.

The bigger issue is that Hayes was a lousy person and didn't have the mindset to be a great defender or great all-around offensive player. He once said of passing "I'm an all-star don't ask me to pass unless you'd ask Babe Ruth to bunt." And of defense, "The best defense is a good offense and the best offense is me."

Above all of my opinions, he was second team all-defense in both seasons as a forward. I don't think a second team player at the forward spot has ever won the award. Surely you could take Kareem, Thurmond, DeBusschere or Frazier or Havlicek or Sloan over him in '74.

In '75 Silas, Sloan, Havlicek, Kareem again are better choices in my opinion.

Be curious to see what you guys dug up on Hayes to make you lean that way.

Also confused by the Sikma pick in 1982. He had a habit of getting eaten alive by the top centers in the league. Kareem averaged 30 on him, Parrish 28, Issel 24 a game, an aging Artis Gilmore had a 20/20 game versus him that year I believe, Joe Barry Carrol had two 30+ games against him, and as someone pointed out today in the forum, Moses Malone out-rebounded him by 30 one game and averaged over 31 per game in five head to head meetings with Sikma.

Sikma was a good defender, but I don't think he ever made another all-defensive team besides that second team selection that season, also curious what discussion led to that choice.

Thanks for joining in the thread and sharing your opinions.

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]The two Elvin Hayes selections really baffle me. Not only was Hayes not considered the best defender at his position, he didn't guard the oppositions centers either. He was a shot blocker, and a good one. Picture Amare Stoudemire with timing and defensive instincts, so I can see why someone might think of him as a top flight defender. D.C had good defenses in the 70's, but those Bullet teams had great defensive front courts overall. Unseld was a great help defender and could hold his own with most of the centers in the league. Dandridge was a top-notch defender and before him Riordan brought all-defensive team credentials to the table. Everyone did what they were best at.

The bigger issue is that Hayes was a lousy person and didn't have the mindset to be a great defender or great all-around offensive player. He once said of passing "I'm an all-star don't ask me to pass unless you'd ask Babe Ruth to bunt." And of defense, "The best defense is a good offense and the best offense is me."

Above all of my opinions, he was second team all-defense in both seasons as a forward. I don't think a second team player at the forward spot has ever won the award. Surely you could take Kareem, Thurmond, DeBusschere or Frazier or Havlicek or Sloan over him in '74.

In '75 Silas, Sloan, Havlicek, Kareem again are better choices in my opinion.

[B]Be curious to see what you guys dug up on Hayes to make you lean that way.
[/B]
Also confused by the Sikma pick in 1982. He had a habit of getting eaten alive by the top centers in the league. Kareem averaged 30 on him, Parrish 28, Issel 24 a game, an aging Artis Gilmore had a 20/20 game versus him that year I believe, Joe Barry Carrol had two 30+ games against him, and as someone pointed out today in the forum, Moses Malone out-rebounded him by 30 one game and averaged over 31 per game in five head to head meetings with Sikma.

Sikma was a good defender, but I don't think he ever made another all-defensive team besides that second team selection that season, also curious what discussion led to that choice.

Thanks for joining in the thread and sharing your opinions.[/QUOTE]

Defensive Win Shares.

Russell from '57 thru '66 (but Wilt's impact in his '64 season was a remarkable turn-around for his Warriors.)

'67 Wilt
'68 Wilt
'69 Wilt
'70 Reed
'71 Kareem
'72 Wilt
'73 Wilt
'74 Kareem

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]The two Elvin Hayes selections really baffle me. Not only was Hayes not considered the best defender at his position, he didn't guard the oppositions centers either. He was a shot blocker, and a good one. Picture Amare Stoudemire with timing and defensive instincts, so I can see why someone might think of him as a top flight defender. D.C had good defenses in the 70's, but those Bullet teams had great defensive front courts overall. Unseld was a great help defender and could hold his own with most of the centers in the league. Dandridge was a top-notch defender and before him Riordan brought all-defensive team credentials to the table. Everyone did what they were best at.

The bigger issue is that Hayes was a lousy person and didn't have the mindset to be a great defender or great all-around offensive player. He once said of passing "I'm an all-star don't ask me to pass unless you'd ask Babe Ruth to bunt." And of defense, "The best defense is a good offense and the best offense is me."

Above all of my opinions, he was second team all-defense in both seasons as a forward. I don't think a second team player at the forward spot has ever won the award. Surely you could take Kareem, Thurmond, DeBusschere or Frazier or Havlicek or Sloan over him in '74.

In '75 Silas, Sloan, Havlicek, Kareem again are better choices in my opinion.

Be curious to see what you guys dug up on Hayes to make you lean that way.
[/QUOTE]

The arguments were: (Most posters leaned to Hayes btw)

Elvin Hayes (Washington Bullets)



1st In Defensive Win Shares (8.1)

1st in Rebounds Per Game (18.1)

5th In Blocks Per Game (3.0)

1st In Defensive Rebounds

2nd In Defensive Rating (88.6)

8th In Block Percentage (3.4)

1st In Defensive Rebound Percentage (29.7)

1st in Minutes Per Game: 44.5

Underrated in challenging shots, anchored 4th best defense, more weight to carry defensively than Kareem, greater statistical impact on his team opposed to Kareem/Lanier/Ray + Article: [URL="http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=4BldAAAAIBAJ&sjid=e1oNAAAAIBAJ&pg=4739,8464299&dq=elvin+hayes+defense&hl=en"]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=4BldAAAAIBAJ&sjid=e1oNAAAAIBAJ&pg=4739,8464299&dq=elvin+hayes+defense&hl=en[/URL]

If you're right about the stuff you posted than it does seem like you're a bit better informed though... Now I just rehashed some of the arguments made, haven't made any of my own research yet, so I won't judge.. None the less I was aware of Elvin being pretty lazy and not up mentally to be a defensive juggernaut / powerhouse.

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]The arguments were: (Most posters leaned to Hayes btw)

Elvin Hayes (Washington Bullets)



1st In Defensive Win Shares (8.1)

1st in Rebounds Per Game (18.1)

5th In Blocks Per Game (3.0)

1st In Defensive Rebounds

2nd In Defensive Rating (88.6)

8th In Block Percentage (3.4)

1st In Defensive Rebound Percentage (29.7)

1st in Minutes Per Game: 44.5

Underrated in challenging shots, anchored 4th best defense, more weight to carry defensively than Kareem, greater statistical impact on his team opposed to Kareem/Lanier/Ray + Article: [URL="http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=4BldAAAAIBAJ&sjid=e1oNAAAAIBAJ&pg=4739,8464299&dq=elvin+hayes+defense&hl=en"]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=4BldAAAAIBAJ&sjid=e1oNAAAAIBAJ&pg=4739,8464299&dq=elvin+hayes+defense&hl=en[/URL]

If you're right about the stuff you posted than it does seem like you're a bit better informed though... Now I just rehashed some of the arguments made, haven't made any of my own research yet, so I won't judge.. None the less I was aware of Elvin being pretty lazy and not up mentally to be a defensive juggernaut / powerhouse.[/QUOTE]

Excellent research...

:applause:

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Well, and as always, he SLAUGHTERED Nate on the glass in their five post-season games, 23.6 rpg to 17.2 rpg. As well as outshooting him from the field by a .611 to .373 margin. Keep in mind that Nate finished second in rpg during the regular season (and considerably behind Chamberlain.)[/QUOTE]

DPOY is a regular season award.

[QUOTE=dankok8]DPOY is a regular season award.[/QUOTE]

Yes. But then using a small sample of games against the league's BEST rebounder (and by 2 rpg I might add) is not fair to Wilt, either.

He was the DPOY in '73...clearly.

BTW, Wilt didn't just annihilate Thurmond in the '73 WCF's, either (23.6 rpg in 45 mpg to Nate's 17.2 rpg in 42.2 mpg). In the first round, against the Bulls "three-headed" monster of Dennis Awtry, Clifford Ray, and Tom Boerwinkle, Wilt outrebounded the three...combined... 172-95, in their seven game series (BTW, Wilt averaged 48 mpg in that series, and those three combined, averaged 47.7 mpg.) Then, in the Finals, he outrebounded the Knicks twosome of Reed and Lucas, who combined to play 48 mpg (same as Wilt's mpg)... 93-69.

Overall, in Wilt's LAST post-season, he outrebounded ALL of his centers...combined...383-250, or ...22.5 rpg to 14.7 rpg. He also collectively outshot them from the field by a .552 to .450 margin.

[QUOTE=ArbitraryWater]The arguments were: (Most posters leaned to Hayes btw)

Elvin Hayes (Washington Bullets)



1st In Defensive Win Shares (8.1)

1st in Rebounds Per Game (18.1)

5th In Blocks Per Game (3.0)

1st In Defensive Rebounds

2nd In Defensive Rating (88.6)

8th In Block Percentage (3.4)

1st In Defensive Rebound Percentage (29.7)

1st in Minutes Per Game: 44.5

Underrated in challenging shots, anchored 4th best defense, more weight to carry defensively than Kareem, greater statistical impact on his team opposed to Kareem/Lanier/Ray + Article: [URL="http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=4BldAAAAIBAJ&sjid=e1oNAAAAIBAJ&pg=4739,8464299&dq=elvin+hayes+defense&hl=en"]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=4BldAAAAIBAJ&sjid=e1oNAAAAIBAJ&pg=4739,8464299&dq=elvin+hayes+defense&hl=en[/URL]

If you're right about the stuff you posted than it does seem like you're a bit better informed though... Now I just rehashed some of the arguments made, haven't made any of my own research yet, so I won't judge.. None the less I was aware of Elvin being pretty lazy and not up mentally to be a defensive juggernaut / powerhouse.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't say Hayes anchored those teams, I'd say Unseld did, at least other than '74 when he was injured and missed a lot of time. If you notice their team defense was better statistically in '73 and '75 when Unseld was healthy and their leading rebounder.

I also don't think Hayes had a greater burden to carry than Kareem. As I mentioned Hayes played with two very good defenders in the frontcourt whereas Kareem never had a legit PF to play alongside until Kermit Washington, years later in LA. Kareem didn't have the ultimate team player and one of the leagues best rebounders by his side, he had to guard the opposing centers every night. Cowens, Thurmond, McAdoo, Lanier, Sam Lacey. When they played the Knicks he had to chase DeBusschere or Lucas outside the paint or give up chip shots and still anchor the defense.

I can see how someone could look at the raw numbers and draw that conclusion, but watching Hayes he seemed to play defense for stats. He'd gamble a lot, try to block too many shots and give up on help to get rebounding position. He never made the all-defensive team after '74 and '75 or before. I just don't see him as a DPOTY type guy.

"Hayes scored 8 points in the closing minutes and his defensive work helped the Capitol Bullets take a 102-100 National Basketball Associated victory over the Knicks Tuesday night."

[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=4BldAAAAIBAJ&sjid=e1oNAAAAIBAJ&pg=4739,8464299&dq=elvin+hayes+defense&hl=en[/url]

"A man of considerable self-confidence, Shue believed he could alleviate most of the pressure that had so obviously troubled Hayes on the Rockets, a poor team for which Elvin felt he had to win games singlehandedly. Shue has done it by dividing the center's offensive duties between sure-handed Unseld, who does most of the passing and picking, and Hayes, who takes

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]I just don't see [Elvin Hayes] as a DPOTY type guy.[/QUOTE]

Me neither.

[QUOTE=WillC]Me neither.[/QUOTE]

Me neither.

Wow , Great work .

I agree with all , beside of 71 . Bucks had best drtg and We know How Knicks Stacked on defence . But Bucks had better drtg than Knicks . Kareem should real choice .

G.O.A.T is goat poster.. his threads is awesome