Who had the better PER?
Printable View
Who had the better PER?
[QUOTE=Soundwave]Shaq lost in '95, '96, '97, '98, '99, '03, and '04 on some very talented teams.
Lets not forget that when saying "unstoppable". Obviously teams found a way to beat him.
Jordan never lost a playoff series once he got a good supporting cast around him. Teams could beat him, but only when he had a garbage supporting cast or no All-Star player to compliment him.
I think Shaq was amazing, he and Jordan are the most dominant individual forces of the past 30 years in the NBA (in their prime), but if you're splitting hairs ... to me this is a rather important difference.
Teams could find a way to beat Shaq in his prime, but not Jordan.[/QUOTE]
If you play on as many good teams as Shaq does eventually you are going to get a wedge. Not to say he wasn't dominant and great but at some point something is going to happen. Shaq was more dominant but Jordan could adapt, adjust and overcome. Jordan would have found a way to win. To me his Will Power was other planetary that year - this is something that doesn't reach me in youtube quality videos. He had more weapons and his team was moreso connected to him than Shaq's team was.
You would have needed a truck to stop Jordan that year and Shaq is close to a truch but he isn't a truck. Jordan was too versatile, too focused, too athletic, too ruthless and destined. You also have to factor in that in the overlap it wasn't questionable as to who was better.
[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]
I take it you mean championships, individual awards, great playoff production ect.?
Well, Wilt in '67 and Olajuwon in '94 come to mind.[/QUOTE]
Do you think
'86 Bird
'87 Magic
'03 Duncan
would fit in that category with '91 MJ and '00 Shaq?
Jordan gets the automatic nod because he was able to close out games.
umm 1 on 1? Obviously Shaq. Not to take anything from Jordan, but at 6-6 and Shaq 7-1. Jordan goes to the rim a few times Shaq is going to throw all his weight on him and I dont think Jordan will survive that more than once
[quote]
'86 Bird
'87 Magic
'03 Duncan [/quote]
Indeed, I also neglected the obvious in '71 KAJ. Apparently the Dream at his peak was better than any version of the Captain. :facepalm
[QUOTE=laronprofit9]Do you think
'86 Bird
'87 Magic
'03 Duncan
would fit in that category with '91 MJ and '00 Shaq?[/QUOTE]
'03 Duncan isn't quite in the category '91 Jordan and '00 Shaq are, IMO. Remarkable season, but not quite. With Jordan in '91 and Shaq in '00, there was no doubt who the best player in the league was and that's pretty telling. To me, Duncan in 2003 was the best in the league, no question in my mind, but the fact that there were debates makes a difference to me and I think Jordan and Shaq's big advantages as scorers also makes a difference.
Unfortunately for Kareem, his peak didn't come in a championship season, IMO, but in terms of success, performance in the playoffs and overall level of play, 1980 has to be up there. I've seen a lot of games from that season, so I have a better perspective regarding that year than other prime Kareem season. His 1971 season is hard to exclude because of the Bucks team success and his regular season, the one thing that hurts the season is that his playoff numbers were noticeably lower than his regular season numbers.
Bird's peak belongs among the elite for sure, when you factor in Bird's 24/10/10 finals series, his 26/10/7/2 regular season on 50/42/90 as well his playoff run when he averaged 26/9/8 on 52/41/93 and the fact that he was easily the best player on the team that I consider to be the greatest.
Magic's impact is so hard to compare to the others, which isn't to say he was better or worse, but it's hard to compare. If you asked me to pick, I'd pick '91 Jordan, '00 Shaq and '86 Bird above him, though. Jordan and Shaq's defensive impact and dominant scoring clinches it. I've always favored Bird over Magic as well to be honest. He was a SF grabbing 10 boards a game alongside Parish and McHale, he was probably the best shooter of his era, a dominant scorer and the best passing forward of all time.
Magic's '87 season ranks among the best ever, though and his finals series is also high up the list.
Kareem's peak could be the greatest of them all, but again it didn't come in a championship season and I think the criteria you set out included similar success, even so, his '71 and '80 seasons are still in the discussion.
When you get to the players this dominant at their peaks, it becomes so hard to rank them. I guess it depends on what the criteria is which will differ depending on who you talk to.
[QUOTE=bdreason]Jordan gets the automatic nod because he was able to close out games.[/QUOTE]
By close out games, do you mean play throughout the 4th in general or game winners? While I don't remember any particular game winners from Shaq in 2000, he was great in 4th quarters. Wouldn't surprise me if he averaged double figures in the 4th during the 2000 playoffs.
[QUOTE=laronprofit9]2001 Kobe and on was better than Scottie Pippen.
However, 2000 Kobe wasn't quite a superstar yet, he was borderline at that time. He could be considered a superstar if you include his defense.
2000 Kobe is very comparable to a 1991 Scottie Pippen as a sidekick.[/QUOTE]
Shaq likely wouldn't have won in 2000 had Bryant not lead the Lakers in points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks in game 7 of the WCF against Portland. Bryant wasn't a superstar at that point, but he was on his way...
[QUOTE=MaxFly]Shaq likely wouldn't have won in 2000 had Bryant not lead the Lakers in points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks in game 7 of the WCF against Portland. Bryant wasn't a superstar at that point, but he was on his way...[/QUOTE]
(Just looked) Not steals...but very impressive. Didn't realize that. :applause:
Hadn't seen that game in a while. Think I'll watch it tonight.
[QUOTE=MaxFly]Shaq likely wouldn't have won in 2000 had Bryant not lead the Lakers in points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks in game 7 of the WCF against Portland. Bryant wasn't a superstar at that point, but he was on his way...[/QUOTE]
I agree. Shaq had 18/9/5 as compared to 25/11/7 for Bryant. Shaq also got fortunate that Sabonis - who had some success defending Shaq this series (as opposed to ironically 1997 and 1998) - fouled out (on a somewhat bs call). Lakers would also have lost if not for 3 threes by Bryan Shaw in the fourth quarter which started the comeback. None of Jordan's championship teams were ever that close to elimination.
[QUOTE=kizut1659]I agree. Shaq had 18/9/5 as compared to 25/11/7 for Bryant. Shaq also got fortunate that Sabonis - who had some success defending Shaq this series (as opposed to ironically 1997 and 1998) - fouled out (on a somewhat bs call). Lakers would also have lost if not for 3 threes by Bryan Shaw in the fourth quarter which started the comeback. None of Jordan's championship teams were ever that close to elimination.[/QUOTE]
Lets not forget that Shaq did have 9 fourth quarter points himself to help lead LA to the comeback. And throughout the game, Snapper Jones was commenting about how poor of a job LA was doing getting Shaq the ball. Magic Johnson commented on this too, and O'Neal only got 9 shots in the game. Part of that has to be put on O'Neal's shoulders. He should've been more aggressive, but when you're a center, you need the guards to get you the ball.
And with a 3-1 lead, Shaq did what he could do give LA a chance to clinch the series in 5. He had 31/21/3 on 12/20 shooting while Kobe had 17/5/3 on 4/13 shooting and Glen Rice turned in a pathetic performance with just 4/2/1 on 1/8 shooting and LA's PF combo of Horry and Green combined for 7 points on 3/13 shooting while Sheed had 22/10 and Pippen had 22/6/3/6/4 on 8/12 shooting. And despite Shaq's 21 rebounds, the Lakers only outrebounded Portland by 1.
And in the finals, Shaq carried LA in all of the wins(except game 4 when Kobe had a very good game) and even in game 4, Shaq had 36/21 and 14 points in the 4th quarter. He was also basically the only Laker to show up in the losses.
Jordan's team dominated the postseason much more, but Jordan got more help consistently. Pippen had a better playoff run in '91 than Kobe in '00 and Grant was much better in the '91 playoffs than Rice was in the '00 playoffs.
[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Lets not forget that Shaq did have 9 fourth quarter points himself to help lead LA to the comeback. And throughout the game, Snapper Jones was commenting about how poor of a job LA was doing getting Shaq the ball. Magic Johnson commented on this too, and O'Neal only got 9 shots in the game. Part of that has to be put on O'Neal's shoulders. He should've been more aggressive, but when you're a center, you need the guards to get you the ball.
And with a 3-1 lead, Shaq did what he could do give LA a chance to clinch the series in 5. He had 31/21/3 on 12/20 shooting while Kobe had 17/5/3 on 4/13 shooting and Glen Rice turned in a pathetic performance with just 4/2/1 on 1/8 shooting and LA's PF combo of Horry and Green combined for 7 points on 3/13 shooting while Sheed had 22/10 and Pippen had 22/6/3/6/4 on 8/12 shooting. And despite Shaq's 21 rebounds, the Lakers only outrebounded Portland by 1.
And in the finals, Shaq carried LA in all of the wins(except game 4 when Kobe had a very good game) and even in game 4, Shaq had 36/21 and 14 points in the 4th quarter. He was also basically the only Laker to show up in the losses.
Jordan's team dominated the postseason much more, but Jordan got more help consistently. Pippen had a better playoff run in '91 than Kobe in '00 and Grant was much better in the '91 playoffs than Rice was in the '00 playoffs.[/QUOTE]
Most if not all of Shaq's 9 fourth quarter points came after Sabonis fouled out (on bs call) and after Lakers got back all of the momentum. Also, while Shaq had a good game 5, he had pretty bad game 6 with 17 points on 7/17 shooting. Shaq's game 2 (23 points, 5/17 fts) was also not all that. I think Pippen in 91 had marginally better playoffs than Kobe in 91 but Kobe had more big/clutch moments - game winner against Phoenix in game 2, best player on the Lakers in game 7 against Portland, and game 4 overtime takeover against Indiana. While I agree that Grant was better in 91 playoffs than Rice in 00 playoffs, the level of competition Lakers faced in 2000 was worse than the Bulls in 1999. Detroit and (to a lesser degree) Lakers were ageing but neither Portland not even Indiana had players the caliber of Magic Johnson or even Isiah Thomas.
I am not trying to take anything away from Shaq's playoff run in 2000 - i think he was the best player in the league by some margin that year. . . I just don't think he was quite equal to Jordan. . .and the fact that the Lakers almost (and should have been) beat by a Portland team that did not have a single superstar is what seals the deal for me on this.
[QUOTE=kizut1659]Most if not all of Shaq's 9 fourth quarter points came after Sabonis fouled out (on bs call) and after Lakers got back all of the momentum. Also, while Shaq had a good game 5, he had pretty bad game 6 with 17 points on 7/17 shooting. Shaq's game 2 (23 points, 5/17 fts) was also not all that. I think Pippen in 91 had marginally better playoffs than Kobe in 91 but Kobe had more big/clutch moments - game winner against Phoenix in game 2, best player on the Lakers in game 7 against Portland, and game 4 overtime takeover against Indiana. While I agree that Grant was better in 91 playoffs than Rice in 00 playoffs, the level of competition Lakers faced in 2000 was worse than the Bulls in 1999. Detroit and (to a lesser degree) Lakers were ageing but neither Portland not even Indiana had players the caliber of Magic Johnson or even Isiah Thomas.
I am not trying to take anything away from Shaq's playoff run in 2000 - i think he was the best player in the league by some margin that year. . . I just don't think he was quite equal to Jordan. . .and the fact that the Lakers almost (and should have been) beat by a Portland team that did not have a single superstar is what seals the deal for me on this.[/QUOTE]
Shaq was instrumental in getting the momentum back in the 4th. Here's a recap. Highlighted are the key plays that involve Shaq.
[B]Shaq hit a jump hook off the glass[/B], Kobe then blocked a shot and kept the ball in play and the Lakers got a wide open 3 by Brian Shaw to cut the lead to 10. After a time out Pippen missed a 3 and Kobe leaked out for a fastbreak opportunity and got fouled and hit 1 out of 2. [B]Shaq got a big offensive rebound and got fouled and hit 1 for 2[/B]. Horry got an offensive rebound and went behind the 3 point line and hit the shot. Kobe then hit a contested jump shot.[B] Shaq sent back Brian Grant's shot emphatically, portland recovered and Pippen tried to penetrate, but Shaq and Shaw cut him off and he threw the ball back to Rasheed with the shot clock winding down and he missed. Shaq got the ball and got triple teamed and passed the ball to Shaw and brian Shaw tied the game with a 3.[/B] That completed their 15-0 run to tie the game. Rasheed Wallace gave Portland the lead again, but [B]Sabonis fouled out and Shaq hit 2 free throws to tie the game on the next possession. Shaq hit a jump hook off the glass over a double team to give the Lakers the lead.[/B] After Portland tied the game again, Kobe got to the line and hit both free throws. Kobe then hit a jump shot to extend the lead to 4 after Sheed missed 2 free throws. [B]Of course Bryant threw the alley oop to Shaq to extend the lead to 6.[/B]
Regarding competition, well, the superstars Jordan faced were better, but teams? That's hard to judge, a lot of that is based on health and chemistry. Jordan faced a 39 win team in the first round, a 44 win team in the second round, a 50 win team in the conference finals and a 58 win team in the finals.
But that Pistons team was not at their championship level as evidenced by their 50-32 record, and even with Isiah, they were still just 31-17. And Isiah was nowhere near his prime form in those playoffs either.
LA also had to deal with injuries to Worthy and Scott as well, granted, I think Chicago would have won anyway, just figured I'd mention it.
LA faced a 44 win team in the first round, a 53 win team in the second round, a 59 win team in the conference finals and a 56 win team in the finals.
I'm not sure 2000 Shaq was as good as 1991 Jordan either, just stating my views on the situations they won championships with.
[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Shaq was instrumental in getting the momentum back in the 4th. Here's a recap. Highlighted are the key plays that involve Shaq.
[B]Shaq hit a jump hook off the glass[/B], Kobe then blocked a shot and kept the ball in play and the Lakers got a wide open 3 by Brian Shaw to cut the lead to 10. After a time out Pippen missed a 3 and Kobe leaked out for a fastbreak opportunity and got fouled and hit 1 out of 2. [B]Shaq got a big offensive rebound and got fouled and hit 1 for 2[/B]. Horry got an offensive rebound and went behind the 3 point line and hit the shot. Kobe then hit a contested jump shot.[B] Shaq sent back Brian Grant's shot emphatically, portland recovered and Pippen tried to penetrate, but Shaq and Shaw cut him off and he threw the ball back to Rasheed with the shot clock winding down and he missed. Shaq got the ball and got triple teamed and passed the ball to Shaw and brian Shaw tied the game with a 3.[/B] That completed their 15-0 run to tie the game. Rasheed Wallace gave Portland the lead again, but [B]Sabonis fouled out and Shaq hit 2 free throws to tie the game on the next possession. Shaq hit a jump hook off the glass over a double team to give the Lakers the lead.[/B] After Portland tied the game again, Kobe got to the line and hit both free throws. Kobe then hit a jump shot to extend the lead to 4 after Sheed missed 2 free throws. [B]Of course Bryant threw the alley oop to Shaq to extend the lead to 6.[/B]
Regarding competition, well, the superstars Jordan faced were better, but teams? That's hard to judge, a lot of that is based on health and chemistry. Jordan faced a 39 win team in the first round, a 44 win team in the second round, a 50 win team in the conference finals and a 58 win team in the finals.
But that Pistons team was not at their championship level as evidenced by their 50-32 record, and even with Isiah, they were still just 31-17. And Isiah was nowhere near his prime form in those playoffs either.
LA also had to deal with injuries to Worthy and Scott as well, granted, I think Chicago would have won anyway, just figured I'd mention it.
LA faced a 44 win team in the first round, a 53 win team in the second round, a 59 win team in the conference finals and a 56 win team in the finals.
I'm not sure 2000 Shaq was as good as 1991 Jordan either, just stating my views on the situations they won championships with.[/QUOTE]
Good summary of the 2000 game - i always wanted a rundown of how exactly Lakers were able to come back. Ok so yes, i am convinced, Shaq clearly played a part but he still scored only 3 out of 15 points that tied the game + of course his big assist to Shaw. The foul on Sabonis when the game was tied and that resulted in 2 free thows was bs in my opinon as i said. I guess all I am trying to say that without improbably threes by role players, Kobe's solid play, Portland's choke, and some bad calls by refs Lakers would have lost. Also, 44-win Sacramento Kings took the Lakers to 5 games.
Pistons in 1990 were on the decline but i think they were better than their record suggests -they started 33-13 during which they had two 10/11 game winning streaks, then finished the season 17-19, and then recovered in the playoffs to beat a 56-win Boston in conference semis. I think 1991 pistons are somewhat similiar to 2010 celtics, if not quite as good.
The 58-win Laker team with still a top 5 player in the league and that beat a 62-win Portland team in conference finals was better than 2000 Portland, let alone Indiana. I know Scott was injured but was Worthy's injury that bad?- he still averaged 19.3 points on 48%. Lakers also got 18.6 points from Divac on 56%.
Wait, why are we talking about game 7 vs. Portland again?
Maybe we wouldn't even be discussing game 7 if Kobe hadn't averaged just 19.7 pts/43% FG through the first 6 games as compared to Shaq's 27.2 pts/54% FG. Kobe scored just 13, 12, and 17 points in three games that series, the later two coming in losses.
Please don't try to act like Kobe was the reason they won that series. If Shaq plays as poorly as Kobe did, Portland wins that series in 4-5 games.