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Great post real you and hitman are 2 of my favoorite posters. I just don't believe this stuff is being argued in an appreciation thread. I was ducking in the larry bird thread every so often and it was just amazing how much smoke was being blown up his ass. Now most it was true, but noone came in there knocking his defense, or question some of his championships etc.
[QUOTE=kizut1659]kind of overrated. Perfect sidekick but not good enough to be the main guy. Never scored close to 25 per game and did not even reach 20K points for his career.
His career post-Jordan really damaged my opinion of him. In 1999, Pippen was only 33 and with significantly less mileage than someone like Kobe now and what happened? An embarassing season in Houston capped by shooting 33% in the playoffs and then having the gall to blame Barkley. Then forcing a trade to Portland, settling into a pure role player mode and not stepping up (shooting 3 for 10) when Portland blew a 15 point lead in game 7 against the Lakers. Never saw second round of the playoffs afterwards.
So could Jordan have won without Pippen or another well-rounded all-star - no, of course not. Is Pippen a top 20/25 GOAT - not in my opinion .[/QUOTE]
Pippen had to play with Michael Jordan for the majority of his career. That shouldn't be used against him.
Pippen is the GOAT perimeter defender, was a MVP caliber player, and at least a top 5 player for several years (and the best all-around player) and the best SF in his prime. Was this because of Michael Jordan?:confusedshrug: For 1
[QUOTE=Da_Realist] But Jordan and Pippen rarely ever had anything negative to say about each other and were probably each other's biggest fans. Jordan said Pippen was the best player in the league. He said Pippen was the best player on the Dream Team. He told the world that Pippen was "his MVP" when he received the 1997 Finals MVP. Jordan complimented one guy in his Hall of Fame speech -- Scottie Pippen. Pippen has repeatedly said Jordan is the GOAT. Repeatedly said Jordan helped him reach his potential. Pippen chose Jordan to introduce him into the Hall of Fame.
This is how you want teammates to act. They respected each other because the only thing each of them wanted was to win. It's f*cked up that we can't appreciate Jordan without mentioning how he didn't win sh*t without Pippen. Or we can't discuss Pippen without mentioning that he was a useless scrub without Jordan when [I]they themselves know better.[/I]
I come on this board and all these people with all these thinly veiled agendas come in to push one player over another when that's not how we're supposed to view basketball. Both Jordan and Pippen fans know good and *** damn well they helped each other reach their potential (winning AND individual accolades). Nobody wins alone. Could Pippen have won without Jordan? Of course. Given a 15 year career, the right team and coaching staff -- Yes. Could Jordan have won without Pippen? Yes. Given the proper environment, yes. It's a stupid argument. Did they win together? Yes. 6 times. That's all that should matter.[/QUOTE]
:applause:
[QUOTE]Pippen was never a legit MVP candidate [/QUOTE]
:roll: He was as legit as KG in 08' despite missing ten games.
[QUOTE]Who cares how much Pierce and Vince scored? [/QUOTE]
It is amusing to see this fetish for scoring. If we are to fetishize scoring over a defensive monster who was a consummate team player and consistently won why does the Wilt vs. Russell debate still exist? The logic advanced by several in this thread leads to a simple conclusion: Wilt>>Russell. Why the inconsistency?
[QUOTE]In 2008-2010 Kobe got to be with another significant talent (Pau Gasol) by his side. Where was Kobe before that? What was he doing before Gasol? Oh yeah, he was doing what Michael Jordan was doing before Pippen. He was doing what Lebron James was doing the last two seasons. He was putting up numbers and losing. 2005, no playoffs. 2006, first round exit. 2007, first round exit. [/QUOTE]
:D
[QUOTE]Yippee...pretty numbers, 50 wins and possibly a first round exit. Like I said before, these days that gets you a 25 cent bag of chips. Hell, Lebron got to the ECF with a 60 win team and put up pretty numbers. What did it get him in the end? Criticized and scrutinized [/QUOTE]
Hell, Lebron elevated his team far more than the "clear GOAT" did. Several other GOAT candidates joined trash teams and had them contending immediately. MJ needed four years to even get out the first round and post a winning record.
[QUOTE]
MJ wasn't taking Scottie's jumpers at the gym for him, MJ didn't make him talented enough to be taken top 5 in a draft, MJ didn't give him his unique all-around skill-set that he developed due to his PG background, MJ didn't give him the work ethic which Scottie used to rise from being a team manager at the start of college to being one of the top prospects in the draft after college. I know it's easy to look back through homer-vision and rewrite history but do you really need to MJ to take credit for everything? He made him a better player. Just like Pippen made MJ a better player by giving the ball to him in the right spots, giving him rest by taking a defensive assignment if he was tired or was in foul trouble, by facilitating the team's offense and getting teammates involved so MJ wouldn't have to worry about it.
It's shameful these dudes on here can't even give him credit for becoming the player he became, because once again "it was all MJ". How many other guys did MJ play with over the course of his career? Why didn't he "make them"?[/QUOTE]
:applause:
With respect to the last two sentences, MJ stans never answer those obvious questions because we all know the obvious answer. Why can't MJ "make" a Pippen in Charlotte? How about Washington? Does MJ enjoy being a failure as a GM? He should get out of the office, hit the gym and "make" another Pippen. Is the ultimate competitor now the ultimate slacker?
[QUOTE]No you dolt, it's not strange AT ALL that a 35 year old player would want to stay with what worked (Pippen and Jackson, which were his conditions for returning) rather than learn a new system under a new coach with a new partner at that stage of his career at age 36.[/QUOTE]
How about a 32 year old fresh off a MVP and his fourth ring? Pippen's days as a superstar were numbered. Krause recognized it and wanted to ship him out while he had immense value. Pippen was getting old but more importantly his body was breaking down. If Pippen is interchangeable with a random elite player why not swap him with a young elite player so MJ could keep winning well into his 30's, not retire at age 35 because he knew he was toast without Scottie?
[QUOTE]What's even more hysterical is imbeciles like you who think that Jordan plus Ewing/DRob/Barkley/Hakeem/Drexler wouldn't have run the league from '88 onward [/QUOTE]
Sure, in video games. The Bulls had no shot at acquiring those players. Ask Cleveland Cavaliers fans how acquiring superstars works. The best players they ever got for Lebron were Jamison, old Shaq, and Mo Williams. Only MJ fans think the Bulls could have acquired Hakeem in exchange for Bill Cartwright, Craig Hodges and 2nd round pick. The Bulls best trade asset under the "no Pippen" scenario would have been Horace Grant.
[QUOTE]And you pick on Jordan.[/QUOTE]
Really? Read the thread. It is insecure MJ fans who hijacked a "cheers to Scottie" thread.
Kareem -- took a 2nd year expansion team that won 27 games the year before to the ECF as a rookie without Oscar or Magic
Shaq -- always had great teams so there isn't anything to say about him.
Bird -- took a 29 win team to the ECF as a rookie, won a ring with McHale averaging about 10 points on the bench.
The real question is strength relative to the league, something MJ fans conveniently ignore due to expansion. Who wins? An average team from 1965 or 1995? The answer is the former. Jordan had a team that won 55 games while replacing him with a D-League scrub. How many other superstars of that era had a team of that strength? Let's see hard facts, not speculation about teams that wound up winning 56 games despite their top player being out for a while but went 8-9 without the superstar in question, as MJ fans did previously when this question was posed.
[QUOTE]One more thing, why in the hell would you criticize Jordan for having a great player on a great team when that's what you are suppose to do in basketball?[/QUOTE]
Good question. Ask MJ fans why they criticize Pippen for having a great player on a great team in every Pippen thread. :D
:oldlol: at someone implying 94' was a fluke for Pip. 95' was on par with 94' and he was arguably even slightly better for 4/5 of 96' before getting hurt.
[QUOTE]I just don't believe this stuff is being argued in an appreciation thread. I was ducking in the larry bird thread every so often and it was just amazing how much smoke was being blown up his ass. Now most it was true, but noone came in there knocking his defense, or question some of his championships e[/QUOTE]
This happens in every Pippen thread thanks to the agenda of fans of the "clear GOAT", who tend to be ex-Bulls fans. I've said it before and I will say it again: if the claims made about Jordan are accurate why the perpetual need to promote a slew of myths around him? His record should suffice, like the record of every other GOAT candidate in basketball or football or racing or hockey does...Do you see Kareem fans trashing Magic? Montana fans diminishing Rice? Gretzky fans saying Messier sucked? Jimmie Johnson fans saying he had terrible cars? Jordan fans are the ONLY exception. Why?
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]
Actually it is. Jordan refused to play--threatened to retire--without Pippen--vetoing at least one Pippen trade. Why? If he could win with any random all-star why not plug in a young all-star in place of Pippen and keep winning longer? Instead Jordan opted to stay with an aging, injury-prone superstar in the late 90's. For a man who loved challenges it indeed is quite strange that he never attempted to see how he could do without Scottie...[/QUOTE]
Wow, I usually just respectfully disagree with most of your posts, but this is probably by far the dumbest thing you've ever posted.
This resembles alot more of what one of those crazy Kobe trolls would post as opposed to what I would expect from you.
It depends on whether you accept the proposition that Jordan could have won with any random elite player. If that is the case then why not opt for a younger one and keep the rings coming instead of retiring after three consecutive championships and a MVP because Scottie left? It is a logical question based on MJ fan's rhetoric.
*Jordan could win with any random elite player
*Pippen was old and breaking down physically
*Pippen still had high trade value and the Bulls could have gotten a young all-star for him
Why keep him around? Sentimentality? From [I]Jordan[/I]. :roll: Jordan left rings on the table because of sentimentality regarding a guy he probably has spoken to maybe three times in the past decade?
I wasn't serious about MJ leaving or pushing for Pip to leave to prove a point but the evidence suggests MJ did not accept the proposition that he could easily win without Scottie.
[QUOTE]Actually it is. Jordan refused to play--threatened to retire--without Pippen--vetoing at least one Pippen trade. Why? If he could win with any random all-star why not plug in a young all-star in place of Pippen and keep winning longer? Instead Jordan opted to stay with an aging, injury-prone superstar in the late 90's. For a man who loved challenges it indeed is quite strange that he never attempted to see how he could do without Scottie...[/QUOTE]
''Tracy McGrady was selected ninth overall in the NBA Draft 1997 by the Toronto Raptors. Chicago Bulls GM Jerry Krause had arranged a draft-day trade to send Scottie Pippen to Toronto for the 9th overall pick, which he would have used to take McGrady. [B]Krause decided not to make the deal when Michael Jordan threatened to retire if it was made. [/B]''
Interesting....
[QUOTE=hitmanyr2k]Yippee...pretty numbers, 50 wins and possibly a first round exit. Like I said before, these days that gets you a 25 cent bag of chips. Hell, Lebron got to the ECF with a 60 win team and put up pretty numbers. What did it get him in the end? Criticized and scrutinized :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Ummm, I think his point was that Jordan having his first winning season in Pippen's rookie year is more of a coincidence as opposed to being the result of Pippen.
[QUOTE=Ne 1]''Tracy McGrady was selected ninth overall in the NBA Draft 1997 by the Toronto Raptors. Chicago Bulls GM Jerry Krause had arranged a draft-day trade to send Scottie Pippen to Toronto for the 9th overall pick, which he would have used to take McGrady. [B]Krause decided not to make the deal when Michael Jordan threatened to retire if it was made. [/B]''
Interesting....[/QUOTE]
I can understand that since T Mac was coming out of high school but why wasn't MJ on his feet cheering for trading Pippen for Kemp, McDyess, et al.? There were a million Pippen trade scenarios since half the league wanted the overrated scrub even in the middle of his career. Hey, MJ could have had a dominant big man!
[QUOTE]Hey, MJ could have had a dominant big man![/QUOTE]
And how many times have we heard from Jordan stans ''he's the only player to ever win without a dominant big man!''
Jordan won 6 rings without a center, it might as well of been 4 on 5 according to them. :oldlol:
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]It depends on whether you accept the proposition that Jordan could have won with any random elite player. If that is the case then why not opt for a younger one and keep the rings coming instead of retiring after three consecutive championships and a MVP because Scottie left? It is a logical question based on MJ fan's rhetoric.
*Jordan could win with any random elite player
*Pippen was old and breaking down physically
*Pippen still had high trade value and the Bulls could have gotten a young all-star for him
Why keep him around? Sentimentality? From [I]Jordan[/I]. :roll: Jordan left rings on the table because of sentimentality regarding a guy he probably has spoken to maybe three times in the past decade?
I wasn't serious about MJ leaving or pushing for Pip to leave to prove a point but the evidence suggests MJ did not accept the proposition that he could easily win without Scottie.[/QUOTE]
You realize that Jordan/Pippen/Phil for years were united in a huge feud with management right? So Jordan clearly wasn't going to keep quiet and not take a stand when they were trying to push the two other major pieces to a dynasty. And really? Kemp, McDyess, T-Mac? How can you blame him for wanting Pippen around when that was what was clearly working and none of those other guys were better then Pippen? Why make a change when thats what was clearly working? Would you expect a CEO to sit around and do nothing while the CFO is getting pushed out by a board of directors even while business is better then ever? Jordan was protesting to something that was clearly very stupid. Hard to blame him for that. And the Kemp rumors were while Jordan was retired in the 94 offseason. Its not like we're talking about Duncan, Shaq, Ewing, Malone, Robinson or Hakeem here. If those guys were on the table at certain points of the dynasty, and Jordan protested, then you might have a point. And either way, just because those other guys mentioned in rumors were younger, Jordan WAS NOT. Bulls getting T-Mac or McDyess was not going to make Jordan want to play an extra 5 years, most of it spent on Pippen's replacement still developing.
Seriously, don't you think it would be pretty stupid for Kobe to back a Gasol for Bosh trade just cause Bosh is younger even after they've won 2 titles in a row? And unlike Jordan' scenario, Bosh isn't developing anymore and is just about in his prime. Like I said, this is probably the dumbest argument you've ever made.
And where do you get how often they've talked to each other over the past decade from?
[QUOTE=Da_Realist]Jordan and Pippen were more rational about their relationship than their respective fans. I can understand Shaq and Kobe fans fighting over this and that because they themselves did. But Jordan and Pippen rarely ever had anything negative to say about each other and were probably each other's biggest fans. Jordan said Pippen was the best player in the league. He said Pippen was the best player on the Dream Team. He told the world that Pippen was "his MVP" when he received the 1997 Finals MVP. Jordan complimented one guy in his Hall of Fame speech -- Scottie Pippen. Pippen has repeatedly said Jordan is the GOAT. Repeatedly said Jordan helped him reach his potential. Pippen chose Jordan to introduce him into the Hall of Fame.
This is how you want teammates to act. They respected each other because the only thing each of them wanted was to win. It's f*cked up that we can't appreciate Jordan without mentioning how he didn't win sh*t without Pippen. Or we can't discuss Pippen without mentioning that he was a useless scrub without Jordan when [I]they themselves know better.[/I]
I come on this board and all these people with all these thinly veiled agendas come in to push one player over another when that's not how we're supposed to view basketball. Both Jordan and Pippen fans know good and *** damn well they helped each other reach their potential (winning AND individual accolades). Nobody wins alone. Could Pippen have won without Jordan? Of course. Given a 15 year career, the right team and coaching staff -- Yes. Could Jordan have won without Pippen? Yes. Given the proper environment, yes. It's a stupid argument. Did they win together? Yes. 6 times. That's all that should matter.[/QUOTE]
Repped. :applause: :applause:
As a Bulls fan, this is how it should be. Anything otherwise is just agenda-driven.
For people focusing on Pippen from 1993 to 1995, I agree that Pippen was great in 1993-1994 but nothing out-of-the ordinary - someone like David Robinson had half a dozen seasons as good or greater than that, let alone someone like Barkley or Malone. In 1994-1995, Pippen was still very good statistically but I had a sense that he lost some of his fire and the Bulls were a .500 team before Jordan rejoined. As the Bulls lacked another great scorer, what the Bulls really needed during these 2 years was for Pippen to be able to score in the high 20s and Pippen didn't have it in him.
Bottom line is that Pippen was a great player in his prime but he was not good enough to be the main guy on a championship team. Also as I posted earlier, Pippen's prime was relatively short - basically from 1989 through 1998 and he became a role player by the time he was 33 with only 37K minutes played at that point.
[QUOTE=kizut1659]You cannot be serious. Kobe is a poor man's MJ but he is not really comparable to Pippen. Scoring wise there is simply no comparison - again, Kobe is a poor man's MJ but he has been a 25-30 scorer for 10 straight years. Pippen's highest scoring average has been 22ppg and his career average is 16. We all know KObe is going to hit 30K points for his career, while Pippen's never hit 20K, scoring less than John Stockton, Paul Pierce, Vince Carter, etc.
Kobe WAS Pippen (maybe slightly worse actually) in 2000, but already in 2001 and 2002 his role on the team was more central than Pippen's ever was. I don't think there was a single playoff series where Pippen was more important than Jordan. By contrast, Kobe was the most important player by a healthy margin in the series against the Spurs in 2001 and 2002 (and arguably against the Kings in 2001.) It of course goes without saying that Kobe's 3 straight finals appearances as "the man" in 2008-2010 cannot be compared to Pippen's sole good season as "the man" in 1993-1994.
Again, I am not comparing Kobe to Jordan - he is just not as good and never will be now that he is past his prime already (even though i think the 5 vs. 1 mvp overstates the margin). But in terms of greatness, he is certainly closer to Jordan than Pippen.[/QUOTE]
Except Pippen did everything else on the court(rebounding, passing, defense, etc), aside from scoring, better than Kobe. He also was a far greater teammate and leader. Kobe/Pippen comparisons are far more valid than Kobe/Jordan.
What examples do we have of Pippen being a good leader?
Late in his career he was a cancer in Houston and the so-called leader of the most undisciplined team in the NBA (Portland)
He was almost never a problem player, but I never thought of him as a leader.
Someone set me straight if I'm wrong.
Watch any interview with the rest of the Bulls. Kerr, Bushy, Randy will all tell you Pip lead the team.