Replace KG with Duncan on the Spurs

Spurs win zero championship.

Spurs don't have enough firepower,so Duncan needs to score a lot on the biggest stages;Garnett can't do that.To make things worse,Tim Duncan is a better rim protector and a better interior defender.

[B]1999[/B]

[B]Western Conference Semifinals / Spurs 4-0 over Lakers[/B]

Duncan averaged 29 pts,10.8 rbs,3.3 as.,2 blk

[B]Finals/ Spurs 4-1 over Knicks[/B]

Duncan averaged 27.4 pts,14.1 rbs,2.4 as.,2.2 blk

[B]2002 [/B]

[B]Western Conference Semifinals / Lakers 4-1 over Spurs[/B]

LA was the better team but Duncan averaged 29 pts,17.2 rb,4.6 as,3.2 blk

[B]2003[/B]

[B]Western Conference Semifinals / Spurs 4-2 over Lakers[/B]

Duncan averaged 28 pts,11.8 rb,4.8 as,1.3 blk


[B]Western Conference Finals / Spurs 4-2 over Mavs[/B]

Duncan averaged 28 pts,16.7 rb,5.8 as,3 blk


[B] Finals / Spurs 4-2 over Nets[/B]

Duncan averaged 24.2 pts,17.0 rb,5.3 as,5.3 blk


[B]2005[/B]

[B]Western Conference Semifinals / Spurs 4-2 over Sonics[/B]

Duncan averaged 25.2 pts,10.3 rb,2.5 as,2.5 blk


[B]Western Conference Finals / Spurs 4-1 over Suns[/B]

Duncan averaged 27.4 pts,13.8 rb,3.2 as,1.8 blk


[B]2006[/B]

[B]Western Conference Finals / Mavs 4-3 over Spurs[/B]

Duncan averaged 32.2 pts,11.7 rb,3.7 as,2.6 blk


[B]2007[/B]

[B]Western Conference Semifinals / Spurs 4-2 over Suns[/B]

Duncan averaged 26.8 pts,13.7 rb,1.1 as,4.1 blk

[QUOTE=ginobli2311]you did not debunk anything. duncan was a more dominant offensive player because he required a double team on the low block while kg really did not.

kg is more versatile...you seem to keep getting that confused. so much of what you say is true, but you are taking it too far. are you saying that kg was as good as shaq offensively? because shaq couldn't shoot, wasn't a great passer, couldn't dribble, couldn't make free throws, couldn't run a pick and pop. kg could simply hurt you in so many more ways offensively than shaq, but i don't think anyone would say kg is even close to shaq in terms of offensive dominance.

while not the same gap, duncan was more dominant offensively.[/QUOTE]
You take MINOR difference in scoring and efficiency, IGNORE everything else about the offense, and say one player is more dominant than another? :oldlol: Oh, and while you place TD and Shaq on the same level, THATS where actual difference offensively is, Duncan is NOT Shaqs caliber. It just shows how much you overrate Duncan.

[QUOTE=ginobli2311]
duncan averaged more points and rebounds and was 3% better from the field. his rebound and block percentage were better. he more than doubled kg in defensive and offensive win shares and overall win shares in less than double the games. his win shares per 48 is much better. duncan's ts% and efg% are better.

while i'm not using only these stats, they do confirm what i saw. and what i saw was a more dominant player in duncan than kg and these stats confirm what i saw with my eyes.

duncan also has a better offensive and defensive rating in the playoffs as well. [/QUOTE]
Its funny how you quote TEAM based stats as a prove of a player as better than another :oldlol: KG had to do more, and he did, including Playoffs. He was all over the floor while providing +/- impact on the team FAR greater than Duncan ever did. Maybe Duncan would have helped Wolves as much... maybe not, he isnt as versatile and couldnt play all 5 positions on both sides of the floor. All these stats just show what a luxury is to play in the solid team with an All-time great coach.

[QUOTE=ginobli2311]
while i don't think duncan would have won a title in minny, i think he could have had a little more regular season success and possibly gotten out of the first round a couple more times. if kg was on the spurs in place of duncan i see him winning at least two titles...maybe 3. but i don't think kg could have won a title on the 03 spurs....in fact i'd bet a ton of money he couldn't have gotten by the shaq/kobe lakers that year.

i'm not saying it isn't close. it is. i just think there is an edge for duncan here in terms of impact and level of play.[/QUOTE]
KG took '03 Lakers to 6 games almost by himself, why do you think he wouldnt have a chance with a better team with a much better coach? Didnt [B]KG had 27.0/15.7/5.2[/B] with FG% 51.4 against the same Lakers, which could very well be the best Duncan performance? The very series you're speaking about [B]Duncan stats were 28/11.8/4.8[/B], and honestly Garnett did [B][I]better[/I][/B]. Actually Spurs blew '03 Lakers away in GM2 with Duncan having 12 points only, it just shows Spurs were pretty solid team, even without All-star 2nd option.

[QUOTE=Harison]You take MINOR difference in scoring and efficiency, IGNORE everything else about the offense, and say one player is more dominant than another? :oldlol: Oh, and while you place TD and Shaq on the same level, THATS where actual difference offensively is, Duncan is NOT Shaqs caliber. It just shows how much you overrate Duncan.


Its funny how you quote TEAM based stats as a prove of a player as better than another :oldlol: KG had to do more, and he did, including Playoffs. He was all over the floor while providing +/- impact on the team FAR greater than Duncan ever did. Maybe Duncan would have helped Wolves as much... maybe not, he isnt as versatile and couldnt play all 5 positions on both sides of the floor. All these stats just show what a luxury is to play in the solid team with an All-time great coach.


KG took '03 Lakers to 6 games almost by himself, why do you think he wouldnt have a chance with a better team with a much better coach? Didnt [B]KG had 27.0/15.7/5.2[/B] with FG% 51.4 against the same Lakers, which could very well be the best Duncan performance? The very series you're speaking about [B]Duncan stats were 28/11.8/4.8[/B], and honestly Garnett did [B][I]better[/I][/B]. Actually Spurs blew '03 Lakers away in GM2 with Duncan having 12 points only, it just shows Spurs were pretty solid team, even without All-star 2nd option.[/QUOTE]


dude. look.

i told you a lot of why duncan is better won't show up in the stats. i never put duncan on the same level as shaq in terms of offensive dominance. you are now twisting my words or not comprehending.

because duncan was a more dominant post player it opened up things for his teammates much better than kg. when one player demands a double team (especially a low post guy) it creates a ton of problems for the opposing team.

duncan commanded a double. kg did not. that is a huge difference when it comes to winning in the playoffs.

look. i'm saying i think duncan was slightly better. i'm saying that kg could have possibly won 3 titles on the spurs. i just don't think he could have won in 03. its just my opinion.

i love kg. love him. have him top 14 all time and the 2nd best pf ever. he is certainly in duncan's league as a player. i just prefer duncan for all the reasons i gave you.

dominant low post presence and dominant post defender/rim protector provides so much value for winning in the nba. and those are two things that duncan was better than kg at.

now. if you put alonzo mourning next to kg....then its a totally different story because you would rather have a zo/kg duo than a duncan/zo duo. so it begins to get into a team oriented thing at some point.

but the thread is about kg vs duncan and how many titles kg would win in duncan's place. and i am very comfortable saying all but the 03 title.

Duncan > KG

[QUOTE=ginobli2311]dude. look.

i told you a lot of why duncan is better won't show up in the stats. i never put duncan on the same level as shaq in terms of offensive dominance. you are now twisting my words or not comprehending.[/QUOTE]

How nice, Duncan offensive monster but you dont see in stats :oldlol: And also your claim "like duncan or shaq in this era. as good as kg was.....he wasn't in their league in terms of offensive dominance." is what I debunked several times now, and while you put TD next to Shaq... That was my another point, Shaq is on whole another level what concerns offensive dominance compared to BOTH TD and KG, who as I PROVED, are very similar in the offensive end.

[QUOTE=ginobli2311]
because duncan was a more dominant post player it opened up things for his teammates much better than kg. when one player demands a double team (especially a low post guy) it creates a ton of problems for the opposing team.

duncan commanded a double. kg did not. that is a huge difference when it comes to winning in the playoffs.[/QUOTE]
Thats simply not true, did you watched videos I linked? KG was offen double teamed while he provided easy points to teammates, and since KG has better court vision and could play as a PG, he can setup his teammates more often and easier than Duncan can from low post double-teams [I]only[/I]. There is a reason why KGs APG is higher than Duncans. Btw did you watched '08 Finals? Lakers double or even tripple teamed KG as soon as he touched the ball, so what you are saying doesnt tell the whole picture, or even half of it.

[QUOTE=ginobli2311]
look. i'm saying i think duncan was slightly better. i'm saying that kg could have possibly won 3 titles on the spurs. i just don't think he could have won in 03. its just my opinion. [/QUOTE]
Actually KG would have won in '03 slightly [I]easier [/I]than Duncan with Spurs, not only because obviously KG played better against Lakers (27.0/15.7/5.2 is superior to 28/11.8/4.8), but also because KG with DRob would provide better [B]team [/B]defense than TD with DRob. None of them could do anything vs prime Shaq, but unlike Duncan, KG would be superior help defender against Kobe and helping denying ball to Shaq.

[QUOTE=Harison]How nice, Duncan offensive monster but you dont see in stats :oldlol: And also your claim "like duncan or shaq in this era. as good as kg was.....he wasn't in their league in terms of offensive dominance." is what I debunked several times now, and while you put TD next to Shaq... That was my another point, Shaq is on whole another level what concerns offensive dominance compared to BOTH TD and KG, who as I PROVED, are very similar in the offensive end.


Thats simply not true, did you watched videos I linked? KG was offen double teamed while he provided easy points to teammates, and since KG has better court vision and could play as a PG, he can setup his teammates more often and easier than Duncan can from low post double-teams [I]only[/I]. There is a reason why KGs APG is higher than Duncans. Btw did you watched '08 Finals? Lakers double or even tripple teamed KG as soon as he touched the ball, so what you are saying doesnt tell the whole picture, or even half of it.


Actually KG would have won in '03 slightly [I]easier [/I]than Duncan with Spurs, not only because obviously KG played better against Lakers (27.0/15.7/5.2 is superior to 28/11.8/4.8), but also because KG with DRob would provide better [B]team [/B]defense than TD with DRob. None of them could do anything vs prime Shaq, but unlike Duncan, KG would be superior help defender against Kobe and helping denying ball to Shaq.[/QUOTE]

agree to disagree.

you have not proven or debunked anything. whether you want to admit it or not. tim duncan was a better post player on offense. thats just a fact. another fact is that duncan commanded a double team more often than kg.

but regardless. agree to disagree.

[QUOTE=ginobli2311]agree to disagree.

you have not proven or debunked anything. whether you want to admit it or not. tim duncan was a better post player on offense. thats just a fact. another fact is that duncan commanded a double team more often than kg.

but regardless. agree to disagree.[/QUOTE]
The most famous TD series vs '03 Lakers are inferior to similar KGs series, but as I see, it doesnt matter to you nor is a prove of anything :confusedshrug:

TD is better post player - sure, I always agreed to that, but once again, its not the same as better offensive player, since KG provides better passing, better floor spacing, more aggressive screens, etc. When you combine everything what contributes to offense, its clear not one of them is more dominant than another.

Its also true TD commands double teams more often, but passing out of it isnt automatically superior to PF who can play as a PG and find open teammate anywhere, regardless if its from double-team, fast break, or simply left open.

[QUOTE=Harison]The most famous TD series vs '03 Lakers are inferior to similar KGs series, but as I see, it doesnt matter to you nor is a prove of anything :confusedshrug:

TD is better post player - sure, I always agreed to that, but once again, its not the same as better offensive player, since KG provides better passing, better floor spacing, more aggressive screens, etc. When you combine everything what contributes to offense, its clear not one of them is more dominant than another.

Its also true TD commands double teams more often, but passing out of it isnt automatically superior to PF who can play as a PG and find open teammate anywhere, regardless if its from double-team, fast break, or simply left open.[/QUOTE]

but you still are trying to equate everything on only stats. and stats don't do it justice always. shaq's stats don't do him justice. some of td's stats don't do him justice.

as i said before. kg was a more complete offensive player than duncan. but i don't feel he was as dominant because he didn't demand a double and wasn't a guy you could go to down on the low block as much as duncan.

this really has nothing to do with kg for me. its about duncan providing something that very few players of all time could. a low post presence and dominance on both ends.

kg had some amazing series and great years. nobody is saying otherwise.

[QUOTE=ginobli2311]but you still are trying to equate everything on only stats. and stats don't do it justice always. shaq's stats don't do him justice. some of td's stats don't do him justice.

as i said before. kg was a more complete offensive player than duncan. but i don't feel he was as dominant because he didn't demand a double and wasn't a guy you could go to down on the low block as much as duncan.

this really has nothing to do with kg for me. its about duncan providing something that very few players of all time could. a low post presence and dominance on both ends.

kg had some amazing series and great years. nobody is saying otherwise.[/QUOTE]
Sure stats dont tell the full picture. Lets pretend KG is on Spurs... Manu and Parker LOVES to drive to the basket... KG pulls away big man and finds open teammate cutting to the basket for easy points. Now Duncan sitting in the post and passing out the ball to perimeter for a jumper... Who do you think helps teammates to get easier points with higher efficiency?

Both tactics have positives and negatives, but when you already have DRob sitting in the post, it gets crowded with TD being the most effective there too. DRob (or any other center) would complement KG better than Duncan, unless we drop "TD is PF" and consider him a center, then its another topic. For example TD with KG would be an insanely good duo, complementing each other perfectly :applause:

KG on the Spurs wouldn't replace Duncan's impact.

He would have been capable of winning when Robinson was on the team. But post Robinson, Duncan has basically been the Spurs Center (albeit listed as PF) for a lot of the time - he guards them at least. KG is a great defender but not a help defender like Duncan, so the Spurs would have to be shaped differently.

It's hard to say really. Both players have had similar impact over their careers but in different ways. I like for like swap doesn't work but I think the team's potential is the same.

[QUOTE=Harison]Sure stats dont tell the full picture. Lets pretend KG is on Spurs... Manu and Parker LOVES to drive to the basket... KG pulls away big man and finds open teammate cutting to the basket for easy points. Now Duncan sitting in the post and passing out the ball to perimeter for a jumper... Who do you think helps teammates to get easier points with higher efficiency?

Both tactics have positives and negatives, but when you already have DRob sitting in the post, it gets crowded with TD being the most effective there too. DRob (or any other center) would complement KG better than Duncan, unless we drop "TD is PF" and consider him a center, then its another topic. For example TD with KG would be an insanely good duo, complementing each other perfectly :applause:[/QUOTE]

now you are changing the arguments and shifting the focus. of course kg would be better in some situations than duncan would. talk about stating the obvious.

but what you fail to realize is that both parker and manu were not great players yet in 03. that team needed a dominant low post presence to carry them through the playoffs. and once again....kg's overall versatility wouldn't have been enough to carry that team to a title. the guys you reference above weren't ready to do what you speak of consistently and robinson was a shell at that point.

i have no doubt in my mind that a kg led spurs lose to the lakers in 03. no doubt.

nearly every standard and measure has duncan as the better player. his PER is better. his stats are better. he commanded more attention offensively and was harder to game plan for. he was a better low block defender and rim protector.

and he was more dominant. and that dominance is what allowed the spurs to win titles...especially the 03 title. and that doesn't show up in the stats....even though duncan's stats are superior.

3 more points per game and 1 more rebound on 3% better from the field.

but i've already given you all that and you just ignore it. you ignore that duncan scored at over 50% from the field in the playoffs 8 times out of 12 trips to the playoffs. KG? 1 time out of 10 trips to the playoffs.

you see? things like that actually matter. like when duncan shot 57% over 13 games in the playoffs one year.

please dude. you think you won this debate....but you didn't. any knowledgeable fan knows this.

and fyi. stop acting like robinson was still elite in 03. he was a 20 minute a game role player that gave the spurs like 8 points and 7 boards in the playoffs. so that kind of blows you argument out of the water. manu wasn't even close to the player he would become and parker was hardly great and was seriously inconsistent and inefficient.

parker shot 40%
jackson shot 41%
manu shot 39%
rose shot 42%
bowen shot 37%
claxton shot 44%

LOL....not one rotation player other than robinson shot over 44% in 03. so good luck with you "kg will set them all up" idea. nope. that spurs team needed a dominant post presence on both ends. not a versatile 7 footer.
:cheers:

[QUOTE=Harison]Sure stats dont tell the full picture. Lets pretend KG is on Spurs... [B]Manu and Parker LOVES to drive to the basket[/B]... KG pulls away big man and finds open teammate cutting to the basket for easy points. Now Duncan sitting in the post and passing out the ball to perimeter for a jumper... Who do you think helps teammates to get easier points with higher efficiency?

Both tactics have positives and negatives, but when you already have DRob sitting in the post, it gets crowded with TD being the most effective there too. DRob (or any other center) would complement KG better than Duncan, unless we drop "TD is PF" and consider him a center, then its another topic. For example TD with KG would be an insanely good duo, complementing each other perfectly :applause:[/QUOTE]

Back in 03 playoffs, Manu and especially Parker were not the finishers in the paint (or passers) that they are now. Manu was a rookie and averaged 9 PPG and 2.9 asst. Parker was a 2nd year player (got benched a lot for Speedy Claxton - even in the final game of the Finals) averaged 14.7 PPG and 3.5 asst.

It was a steady diet of 4down - Duncan in the low post waiting for the double team and dishing to team mates for open 3s (Kerr, Bowen, S. Jackson, Manu). Also, TD's 5.3 assts doesn't include those baskets where an extra pass was made but resulted from the double team.

Robinson played limited mins. in 03 playoffs - averaging 7.8 PPG and was not "sitting in the post" but playing a more defensive role. Why is Duncan knocked for being able to play/guard both positions (PF and C) but KG gets brownie points for his versatility?

[QUOTE=rmt]Back in 03 playoffs, Manu and especially Parker were not the finishers in the paint (or passers) that they are now. Manu was a rookie and averaged 9 PPG and 2.9 asst. Parker was a 2nd year player (got benched a lot for Speedy Claxton - even in the final game of the Finals) averaged 14.7 PPG and 3.5 asst.

It was a steady diet of 4down - Duncan in the low post waiting for the double team and dishing to team mates for open 3s (Kerr, Bowen, S. Jackson, Manu). Also, TD's 5.3 assts doesn't include those baskets where an extra pass was made but resulted from the double team.

Robinson played limited mins. in 03 playoffs - averaging 7.8 PPG and was not "sitting in the post" but playing a more defensive role. Why is Duncan knocked for being able to play/guard both positions (PF and C) but KG gets brownie points for his versatility?[/QUOTE]

this.

maybe he'll listen to you. he keeps acting like parker/manu were elite players in 03 and keeps insisting that a kg/robinson duo would be amazing.

i honestly don't think he watched the spurs that year. parker was out of control often and highly inefficient. same with manu. and robinson was a shell and merely a 20 minute a game role player.

[QUOTE=ginobli2311]
but what you fail to realize is that both parker and manu were not great players yet in 03. that team needed a dominant low post presence to carry them through the playoffs. and once again....kg's overall versatility wouldn't have been enough to carry that team to a title. the guys you reference above weren't ready to do what you speak of consistently and robinson was a shell at that point.[/QUOTE]
While Parker and Manu werent in primes yet, but Spurs as a team was solid and better than Minny, and even better than Lakers if we exclude Shaq with Kobe. As was an example of Duncan scoring only 12 points yet Spurs blowing Lakers out of the water in GM2.

DRob even way after his prime was better than Perkins in '08 for the Celtics, and yet Celtics were one of the top[B] All-time teams defensively[/B] (including post D), guess why? Perkins or DPOY guy you underrate here? After KG went down in '09, suddenly Celtics were only average defensively.

[QUOTE=ginobli2311]
i have no doubt in my mind that a kg led spurs lose to the lakers in 03. no doubt.[/QUOTE]
Thats your [I]opinion[/I]. KG was better than Duncan vs Lakers, yet you think he would lose :facepalm

[QUOTE=ginobli2311]
nearly every standard and measure has duncan as the better player. his PER is better. his stats are better. he commanded more attention offensively and was harder to game plan for. he was a better low block defender and rim protector. [/QUOTE]
If you like advanced stats, KGs peak was better, and while Duncan has his advantages (which you overstate), so has KG (which you ignore). After some thinking its obvious Minny would do worse with Duncan, while Spurs pretty much the same with KG. Still as I said in the first post about it, Spurs brilliant front office would adjust roster to use their superstar strong points better.

[QUOTE=ginobli2311]
3 more points per game and 1 more rebound on 3% better from the field.

but i've already given you all that and you just ignore it. you ignore that duncan scored at over 50% from the field in the playoffs 8 times out of 12 trips to the playoffs. KG? 1 time out of 10 trips to the playoffs.

you see? things like that actually matter. like when duncan shot 57% over 13 games in the playoffs one year.[/QUOTE]
You are comparing 19 years old KG from HS vs 21+ years Duncan from college. When we compare primes, difference is non existent [B]or [/B]KG did even better. Or how about KGs increased efficiency while playing on a better team? [B]Things like that actually matter.[/B]

[QUOTE=ginobli2311]
and fyi. stop acting like robinson was still elite in 03. he was a 20 minute a game role player that gave the spurs like 8 points and 7 boards in the playoffs. so that kind of blows you argument out of the water. manu wasn't even close to the player he would become and parker was hardly great and was seriously inconsistent and inefficient.

parker shot 40%
jackson shot 41%
manu shot 39%
rose shot 42%
bowen shot 37%
claxton shot 44%

LOL....not one rotation player other than robinson shot over 44% in 03. so good luck with you "kg will set them all up" idea. nope. that spurs team needed a dominant post presence on both ends. not a versatile 7 footer.
[/QUOTE]
As I said above, Robinson was better than Perkins, and watch what post-prime KG did with the Celtics.

While you quote shooting %, we have one unique example as mentioned by pointguard - Nesterovic. With KG he was scoring 11.2 with 52.5%, immediately after joining Spurs he dropped to 8.7 with 46.9%. I guess spoon feeding from KG works better :oldlol: Its unanimous KG is a better passer than Duncan, why its so hard for you to admit Spurs players would benefit from that as well?

[QUOTE=Harison]While Parker and Manu werent in primes yet, but Spurs as a team was solid and better than Minny, and even better than Lakers if we [B]exclude Shaq with Kobe[/B]. As was an example of Duncan scoring only 12 points yet Spurs blowing Lakers out of the water in GM2.

DRob even way after his prime was better than Perkins in '08 for the Celtics, and yet Celtics were one of the top[B] All-time teams defensively[/B] (including post D), guess why? Perkins or DPOY guy you underrate here? After KG went down in '09, suddenly Celtics were only average defensively.


Thats your [I]opinion[/I]. KG was better than Duncan vs Lakers, yet you think he would lose :facepalm


If you like advanced stats, KGs peak was better, and while Duncan has his advantages (which you overstate), so has KG (which you ignore). After some thinking its obvious Minny would do worse with Duncan, while Spurs pretty much the same with KG. Still as I said in the first post about it, Spurs brilliant front office would adjust roster to use their superstar strong points better.


You are comparing 19 years old KG from HS vs 21+ years Duncan from college. When we compare primes, difference is non existent [B]or [/B]KG did even better. Or how about KGs increased efficiency while playing on a better team? [B]Things like that actually matter.[/B]


As I said above, Robinson was better than Perkins, and watch what post-prime KG did with the Celtics.

While you quote shooting %, we have one unique example as mentioned by pointguard - Nesterovic. With KG he was scoring 11.2 with 52.5%, immediately after joining Spurs he dropped to 8.7 with 46.9%. I guess spoon feeding from KG works better :oldlol: Its unanimous KG is a better passer than Duncan, why its so hard for you to admit Spurs players would benefit from that as well?[/QUOTE]

How can you exclude Shaq and Kobe?????

Don't think you can compare an 08 Boston team with 3 franchise players to 03 Spurs team with not one All-star or All-NBA player other than TD. The memorable thing about the 03 team was Duncan's brilliance. Robinson was 38 years old (his last year) with a bad back. A better comparison for defense would be the 99 Spurs when Robinson was still good or 05 when Bowen had reached his prime & Horry showed up. I also think that TD was more clutch than KG.

Would KG be able to carry the 03 Spurs roster to a ring? I don't think so. Would TD be able to win with the 08 Celtics roster in place of KG? I'd bet more money on this than on the former.