[QUOTE=Teanett]yes, because the bulls won.[/QUOTE]
They went 2-2 in the stretch GP was primary defender on Jordan
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[QUOTE=Teanett]yes, because the bulls won.[/QUOTE]
They went 2-2 in the stretch GP was primary defender on Jordan
[QUOTE=GP_20]The Bulls had Pippen, Jordan, and Rodman in their primes. I hope they played better defense than Payton's defensive team. And even then the difference was just #1 and #2. Also, it helps a lot to have great defenders aroudn you. Payton never got that luxury.
Once again, you say all those centers had more defensive impact in 96. Then why did their team defenses play worse? Payton didn't have a Rodman or Jordan helping him either. Or any other All-Defensive team member. He had as much help as say Dikembe did. Yet Payton's team played better defense.
And this is just team defense, which should be a Center's main advantage over a guard. Yet Payton overcomes this by leading his defenses to status better than any center in the league. Then when you go down to individual defense, I guarantee you Payton guarded his player individually better than anyone in the league.[/QUOTE]
the fact that he had no other all defense player on his team doesn't mean he played better defense than pippen, jordan or rodman.
and you can guarantee whatever you want, i'll guarantee you he doesn't get switched from finley to barkley in the same game and go on to stop mark jackson, tim hardaway as well as chris webber.
As for the 1996 Finals, you can't be dominant while shooting sub 40%. At that point, you're just as much of a liability by giving away possessions and potential points. Many people were fighting for Rodman to win Finals MVP over Jordan. Hell, Shawn Kemp had a case over Jordan according to quite a few people.
[QUOTE=GP_20]Career-wise he might arguably be below them. But prime wise, he is a Top 3 PG All-Time.[/QUOTE]
Exactly how? Oscar's 30-12-12 translates to 23-8-8 in today's statistics (not exacly fair, but It's close enough) On top of that, he was a more skilled post player, and a better shooter, better passer, better rebounder. Better everything except defense.
Magic hopefully doesn't need much of an explanation.
Isiah in his peak is probably the best PG ever, even though it was fairly short. He was a better scorer then Payton, capable of sustaining 25 ppg for a playoff run, and also capable of still getting his team mates involved while doing it, something Payton couldn't do while scoring his regular 20 ppg.
Stockton is 100 times the passer Payton was, Scored 17 points while in the flow of the offense, instead of stagnating it like Payton did. He was as great of a team defender as Payton arguably better, the only thing Payton realistically has on him is his 1 on 1 defense.
Cousy is difficult to compare because he played much of his career in the 50's. However he was an MVP winner, was a great passer, and was much better compared to the average PG he played then Payton.
[QUOTE=Teanett]the fact that he had no other all defense player on his team doesn't mean he played better defense than pippen, jordan or rodman.
and you can guarantee whatever you want, i'll guarantee you he doesn't get switched from finley to barkley in the same game and go on to stop mark jackson, tim hardaway as well as chris webber.[/QUOTE]
Shawn Marion goes through that. It's called "defensive versatility". Is Marion a better defender than Payton too?
You could make a case for prime Pippen to be a better defender than prime Payton. Sure. But this is 1996. Payton's defensive peak, and Pippen had slowed a little down on defense by then. And the work Payton did in 96
#2 Team Defense (Behind arguably the greatest defensive team of all-time)
#1 in Team TOs created
#1 in League in Steals
- Exceptional 1 on 1 defense
- Limited and shut down all PGs throughout the season
- Wins DPOY by a LANDSLIDE
Read the last part. He won by a landslide. Why do you think they would give it to him by a landslide?
there's something about seeing former stars as television "analysts" that slightly alters my overall perception of the player (the mental snapshots of said players legacy)
in other words, when I see Payton wiseassin on TV it somehow taints the glorious perception I have of him in my head. You know what else taints my view of Payton? seeing him run with the Heat like a poor man's Eric Snow. now [I]that[/I] will taint a perception!~
[QUOTE=Teanett]and while we're at it...
i believe that his dpoy was undeserved.
he was great at what he does (lock down guards one on one, steals, denying passes) but he didnt have the same defensive impact as admiral, dream, motumbo, pip or rodman that year.[/QUOTE]
:facepalm
Payton was a beast defensively. You don't just win that award as a guard by accident.
[QUOTE=GP_20]Shawn Marion goes through that. It's called "defensive versatility". Is Marion a better defender than Payton too?
You could make a case for prime Pippen to be a better defender than prime Payton. Sure. But this is 1996. Payton's defensive peak, and Pippen had slowed a little down on defense by then. And the work Payton did in 96
#2 Team Defense (Behind arguably the greatest defensive team of all-time)
#1 in Team TOs created
#1 in League in Steals
- Exceptional 1 on 1 defense
- Limited and shut down all PGs throughout the season
- Wins DPOY by a LANDSLIDE
Read the last part. He won by a landslide. Why do you think they would give it to him by a landslide?[/QUOTE]
1996 was arguably pippen's best year defensively because jordan came back and pippen could spend more energy on defense.
as for the work pippen did:
#1 Team Defense (as the anchor of the greatest defensive team of all-time)
#1 in playoffs in Steals
- Exceptional 1 on 1 defense
- Limited and shut down players on ALL POSITIONS throughout the season
so why did gary payton win dpoy?
well, why did steve nash win 2 mvp's over shaq, duncan and kobe?
:confusedshrug:
[QUOTE=comerb]:facepalm
Payton was a beast defensively. You don't just win that award as a guard by accident.[/QUOTE]
never said he wasn't.
i just think others could impact a game defensively more than he did.
[QUOTE=Teanett]1996 was arguably pippen's best year defensively because jordan came back and pippen could spend more energy on defense.
as for the work pippen did:
#1 Team Defense (as the anchor of the greatest defensive team of all-time)
#1 in playoffs in Steals
- Exceptional 1 on 1 defense
- Limited and shut down players on ALL POSITIONS throughout the season
so why did gary payton win dpoy?
well, why did steve nash win 2 mvp's over shaq, duncan and kobe?
:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
You've got to be kidding me. :lol
Don't you think Jordan and Rodman have any impact on the Bulls being the best team in the NBA defensively? I mean, really. What do you mean Pippen "anchored" that defense? "Anchoring" is when you are one and clearly the best defensive player on your team. Pippen wasn't even arguably the best defender on his own team and you are talking about him "anchoring" his team on defense.
In fact, the Bulls allowed a league low [B]101.8[/B] points per 100 possessions. The Sonic's allowed the 2nd lowest [B]102.1[/B] points per 100 possessions. That's virtually even. Pippen had Jordan and Rodman on his team. Payton had...no one close to that caliber on defense.
And you are still wondering why Payton won DPOY? :roll:
Look at it this way
#1 Defense allowing 101.8 points/100 possessions with Rodman and Jordan as your teammates vs. #2 Defense allowing 102.1points/possessions with no All-D member on your team.
Which is more impressive? Do you realize Rodman and Jordan are some of the greatest defenders of all-time themselves? I can't believe I actually have to explain this.
Payton won his DPOY [B]by a landslide[/B]. Nash did not. Why do you think they gave it to Payton by a landslide?
Once again, Pippen is a great defender, but by 96 had slowed down. He averaged 2.9spg and 1.1bpg in 95, in 96 he was down to 1.7spg and 0.7bpg. Stats aren't everything, but I'm saying his defensive peak was past him. He had hit his 30s by 96. So maybe at some point he was better than Payton on defense, but 96, no way.
And why do you keep bringing up playoffs? DPOY is based on regular season. Playoff stats are irrelevant.
I'm sorry, you think the whole world is stupid (giving Payton DPOY by a landslide), and it doesn't matter how good defensively your teammates are in relation with how many points you allow (extremely stupid), and steals don't matter at all, and so on. This is just absurd reasoning.
Like I said, you can make the argument Pippen was better than Payton defensively at their respective peaks, but 96 was all Gary Payton.
[QUOTE=GP_20]You've got to be kidding me. :lol
Don't you think Jordan and Rodman have any impact on the Bulls being the best team in the NBA defensively? I mean, really. What do you mean Pippen "anchored" that defense? "Anchoring" is when you are one and clearly the best defensive player on your team. Pippen wasn't even arguably the best defender on his own team and you are talking about him "anchoring" his team on defense.
In fact, the Bulls allowed a league low [B]101.8[/B] points per 100 possessions. The Sonic's allowed the 2nd lowest [B]102.1[/B] points per 100 possessions. That's virtually even. Pippen had Jordan and Rodman on his team. Payton had...no one close to that caliber on defense.
And you are still wondering why Payton won DPOY? :roll:
Look at it this way
#1 Defense allowing 101.8 points/100 possessions with Rodman and Jordan as your teammates vs. #2 Defense allowing 102.1points/possessions with no All-D member on your team.
Which is more impressive? Do you realize Rodman and Jordan are some of the greatest defenders of all-time themselves? I can't believe I actually have to explain this.
Payton won his DPOY [B]by a landslide[/B]. Nash did not. Why do you think they gave it to Payton by a landslide?
Once again, Pippen is a great defender, but by 96 had slowed down. He averaged 2.9spg and 1.1bpg in 95, in 96 he was down to 1.7spg and 0.7bpg. Stats aren't everything, but I'm saying his defensive peak was past him. He had hit his 30s by 96. So maybe at some point he was better than Payton on defense, but 96, no way.
And why do you keep bringing up playoffs? DPOY is based on regular season. Playoff stats are irrelevant.
I'm sorry, you think the whole world is stupid (giving Payton DPOY by a landslide), and it doesn't matter how good defensively your teammates are in relation with how many points you allow (extremely stupid), and steals don't matter at all, and so on. This is just absurd reasoning.
Like I said, you can make the argument Pippen was better than Payton defensively at their respective peaks, but 96 was all Gary Payton.[/QUOTE]
you just twist it how you like it, eh?
you say pippen wasn't in his prime anymore but remember jordan and rodman were 33+35 that point?
pippen was the best defender and the defensive "captain" on that team.
and dont tell me that sonics team didnt have good defenders.
nate mcmillan, askew, young eric snow. det and hersey were solid.
kemp was a very good defender. what do you think earvin johnson and brickowski were on the team for? scoring?
the sonics bigs were better individual defenders than kukoc, longley and wennington.
twist it how you like it, there is no clear evidence of him being clearly better than pippen, robinson, etc. in '96.
[QUOTE=Teanett]you just twist it how you like it, eh?
you say pippen wasn't in his prime anymore but remember jordan and rodman were 33+35 that point?
pippen was the best defender and the defensive "captain" on that team.
and dont tell me that sonics team didnt have good defenders.
nate mcmillan, askew, young eric snow. det and hersey were solid.
kemp was a very good defender. what do you think earvin johnson and brickowski were on the team for? scoring?
the sonics bigs were better individual defenders than kukoc, longley and wennington.
twist it how you like it, there is no clear evidence of him being clearly better than pippen, robinson, etc. in '96.[/QUOTE]
Neither Jordan, Pippen, nor Rodman were at their peaks defensively. But they were all still good, good enough for All-Defensive 1st.
Pippen's defensive cast was still A LOT STRONGER than Payton's. It's not even close. Jordan and Rodman are 2 of the greatest of all-time and were both All-Defensive 1st. Payton had no All-Defensive team member on his team. LOL at comparing a bunch of average to solid defenders to JORDAN and RODMAN. :roll:
I've never seen so much insult on defense to Rodman and Jordan until now. This is just sad.
I don't know about you but I'm not dumb enough to ignore every fact thrown at me.
[B]1.[/B] Payton's team, with a FAR WORSE defensive cast around him allowed virtually the SAME POINTS per 100 possessions as Pippen's team. If Pippen was a better defender, you'd expect his team along with Jordan and Rodman (2 All-D 1st members) to hold teams to substantially lower points than Payton and no one strong helping him. But this is not the case. Payton's ability to lead his team to as great of defense as Pippen/Jordan/Rodman Bulls is actually amazing.
[B]2.[/B] You know people who were watching the NBA at the time (not you apparently), analysts and everyone, they said Payton was DPOY by a LANDSLIDE.
Please tell me when are awards given incorrectly to a LANDSLIDE winner? :facepalm
[B]3. [/B]Payton led the league in steals, while Pippen was now in his 30s and all his defensive stats had fallen down drastically from the year before.
I don't get it, did you pass 3rd grade? Even a 3rd grader would be able to see the argument for Payton is clearly stronger. Or are you that ignorant? Which is it?
I'm not saying this is some kind of proof, but even someone illiterate would see Payton has a much stronger case. In fact, what is the case for Pippen? :oldlol:
.
I'm actually stunned at how stupid ISH has become. This guy here has no case at all yet he is still arguing. Just because he "initially" thought so, he doesn't want to change his opinion.
I really bet I could make a better argument for Kobe to receive 3-4 DPOYs than this guy is making for Pippen to get DPOY in 96. It's actually ridiculously sad. :facepalm I mean, EVERY sign points towards Payton, I still can't believe I actually have to explain some of this.
Honestly bro, your argument right now for Pippen is as strong as this:
[I][B]"I think Nash should've won DPOY last year because I thought so".[/B][/I]
That's it. :facepalm
Stop embarrassing yourself. Your only argument was that he led the league in steals in playoffs, and DPOYs are given in the regular season. Fail.
Don't think he's underrated. He is one of the top PG of all time and one of the best perimeter defenders. Once Nash and Kidd retires, then ppl will adjust to them. But Nash and Kidd are great PGs too.
Man..some of u are either dumb, young or both, lol..........I don't have time to type out a long response but I'll just say I agree pretty much with GP20.....Some of you are seriously TRIPPING taking Nash over GP...I'm no GP fan by any stretch but I'm 30 years old so I remember watching PLENTY of Gary Payton and whoever said Jordan outplayed him in the 96 you are LYING or did not watch the series....I don't care about numbers, go WATCH IT AND GIVE IT THE SEE AND EYE TEST....From the time Karl put GP on MJ which was game 3 I'm pretty sure, though I don't remember at what point in the game, he AT LEAST played him evenly and I DISTINCTLY remember during that year, when I was on message boards, most people including the analysys were siding with GP....Shawn Kemp easily wins MVP if the Sonics win that series..........smh