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[QUOTE=Doranku]They were good enough to get to the finals with LeBron scoring 25 ppg on 41%. :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
Lebron was averaging 26/8+/8+ on 43.4% FG, or 54 TS% through the Pistons series. Impressive considering this was clearly his worst year aside from his rookie season.
[QUOTE=Simple Jack]:roll: at linking to your own post that did nothing to contribute to the argument when you originally posted it and thinking it would do anything now. Not to mention you moved on to the 61 win team, not the 66 win team that didn't even have Jamison or Shaq.[/QUOTE]
Then read my posts again, I didnt had to "moved on to the 61 win team", you mentioned 61 wins team among Cavs teams whom "KG wouldnt get to 60+", I proved you wrong, posts are still up if you want to read up :rolleyes: My posts are based on pure logic and facts, if you have data on the contrary - provide it.
[QUOTE=Simple Jack]
Dude is getting hated on for how terrible his untalented team played, now? And how he "stat padded" despite doing nearly everything necessary for his team to win throughout that season? Give me a guy who "stat pads" all day if my team, with that level of talent, is going to win 66 games. [/QUOTE]
I do have a good memory, how Cavs fans claimed they should win it all those seasons, Cavs were heavy favorites among experts too. After they lost, excuses started :oldlol: In '10 it was again, "now we REALLY wont have any excuses", Cavs lost, excuses started :roll:
[QUOTE=Simple Jack]
On a side note, it's funny that no one can point out exactly what LeBron "stat-pads". [/QUOTE]
Simple, he overplays the ball in his hands till he makes something out of it. In the regular season Lebron usually set up his teammates well enough, however in the Playoffs I remember many occasions how Lebron froze out his teammates, and they couldnt get into rhythm. Many possessions with Lebron dribbling the ball almost out of time, and when he couldnt do something for himself, he passed the ball for bail out shot. Thats a bad team game. Cavs fans themselves were criticizing Lebron for it.
[QUOTE=Harison]
Simple, he overplays the ball in his hands till he makes something out of it. In the regular season Lebron usually set up his teammates well enough, however in the Playoffs I remember many occasions how Lebron froze out his teammates, and they couldnt get into rhythm. Many possessions with Lebron dribbling the ball almost out of time, and when he couldnt do something for himself, he passed the ball for bail out shot. Thats a bad team game. Cavs fans themselves were criticizing Lebron for it.
[/QUOTE]
i sorta agree with this, but mostly not.
maybe lebron didnt trust his teammates enough, but really, none of those guys ever have shown that they can consistently make plays for themselves, before or after lebron.
delonte could make a step back j here and there, and mo could hit a pullup off of a pick and roll, or occassionally get into the lane to create for himself or a big man, jamison could post up to a degree of success, but nobody on lebron's teams in cleveland was ever a legit second option to generate offense.
and i think this has hurt lebron's development. he never had a second guy to rely on, and along with this, he never had to learn to co-exist with another offensive play maker, so now that he is in miami he has to learn a whole other side to basketball, in playing along another capable play maker.
[QUOTE=chips93]i sorta agree with this, but mostly not.
maybe lebron didnt trust his teammates enough, but really, none of those guys ever have shown that they can consistently make plays for themselves, before or after lebron.
delonte could make a step back j here and there, and mo could hit a pullup off of a pick and roll, or occassionally get into the lane to create for himself or a big man, jamison could post up to a degree of success, but nobody on lebron's teams in cleveland was ever a legit second option to generate offense.
and i think this has hurt lebron's development. he never had a second guy to rely on, and along with this, he never had to learn to co-exist with another offensive play maker, so now that he is in miami he has to learn a whole other side to basketball, in playing along another capable play maker.[/QUOTE]
this is why a lot of people think players should go to college at least 2 years. lebron is a huge victim of circumstances. he never had the chance to develop as a player. high school straight to the worst team in the league with no veteran players or solid foundation to learn. it was a one man show for lebron from age 10 to 25. last year was the first year of his basketball life in which he played with quality teammates.
it really is a shame. i can't imagine what kind of player he'd be today if he spent a year or two learning to play in a system at Duke or something.
Lebron is at fault as well for not developing certain aspects of his game, but generally speaking he's never been in the situation (until now) to learn how to play basketball without being a 1 man show.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]this is why a lot of people think players should go to college at least 2 years. lebron is a huge victim of circumstances. he never had the chance to develop as a player. high school straight to the worst team in the league with no veteran players or solid foundation to learn. it was a one man show for lebron from age 10 to 25. last year was the first year of his basketball life in which he played with quality teammates.
it really is a shame. i can't imagine what kind of player he'd be today if he spent a year or two learning to play in a system at Duke or something.
Lebron is at fault as well for not developing certain aspects of his game, but generally speaking he's never been in the situation (until now) to learn how to play basketball without being a 1 man show.[/QUOTE]
nice post, id agree with most of it
im not sure what kind of lebron we'd have today had he been forced to play with some real quality teammates when he was younger, or went to college, having said all that, a young player having the freedom to make mistakes, to dominate the ball, and to be creative, can help develop a player
young players need freedom to develop, and while that freedom may have stunted lebron's growth in seom areas, i dont think we can unequivocally say that lebron would be a better player having played with more restrictions.
so really, i cant say either way whether the freedom lebron had for his entire basketball life up until this season was a good or bad influence on him. its definitely an interesting topic though.
Harison's has made some points that I agree with on why I think Lebron's 09 season is a bit overrated. It really depends on the context of how you view Lebron that season as a player.
From an indvidual perspective, he was about as good as it gets. However, from a team perspective? I'd hestitate to take him ahead of most of the all-time greats (let's say top 9-10). In other words, Lebron's skill at that point in time fits in very well for a team of mediocre talent. However, what's 09 Lebron gonna do when there's good talent on the roster? That's still a player who's a mediocre FT shooter, can't post up, can't play off the ball, and has a limited iso game as far as moves goes.
That's just my opinion anyways. I'd take Lebron over Garnett if both players had teams that fit a high-school style of play, but if we're talking about building actual teams, i'd probably take Garnett.
[QUOTE=Harison]Then read my posts again, I didnt had to "moved on to the 61 win team", you mentioned 61 wins team among Cavs teams whom "KG wouldnt get to 60+", I proved you wrong, posts are still up if you want to read up :rolleyes: My posts are based on pure logic and facts, if you have data on the contrary - provide it. [/QUOTE]
Drawing baseless conclusions about the 2010 team isn't proving anything.
Facts are, Spreewell and Cassell were >> anything LeBron had to work with and certainly more reliable in the playoffs.
58 wins is a bit different than 66.
[QUOTE=cteach111]Harison's has made some points that I agree with on why I think Lebron's 09 season is a bit overrated. It really depends on the context of how you view Lebron that season as a player.
From an indvidual perspective, he was about as good as it gets. However, from a team perspective? I'd hestitate to take him ahead of most of the all-time greats (let's say top 9-10). In other words, Lebron's skill at that point in time fits in very well for a team of mediocre talent. [B]However, what's 09 Lebron gonna do when there's good talent on the roster? That's still a player who's a mediocre FT shooter, can't post up, can't play off the ball, and has a limited iso game as far as moves goes. [/B]
That's just my opinion anyways. I'd take Lebron over Garnett if both players had teams that fit a high-school style of play, but if we're talking about building actual teams, i'd probably take Garnett.[/QUOTE]
Lebron certainly has some flaws, but how about just giving him players that are good and fit well with him. Its not like Lebron has to either have a sorry roster or a stacked roster with a player that plays just like him in Wade.
Take the 09 team. How about just give it a quality all nba player. Give the 09 Cavs a Bosh or Gasol. That is what they needed. Its not like the 09 roster needed a huge makeover. It just needed a reliable 2nd option and a threat to score from the post.
I've been really hard on Lebron after this year...and rightfully so...but I think people forget that he's playing alongside a player in Wade that is a terrible fit for him. It would be like Jordan and Kobe playing on the same team. Yea, they might win because they are so great individually....just like Lebron and Wade might win....but its not a great fit. If you had the chance to put an elite player alongside Lebron....Wade would be one of the last players you would choose. Two players that need the ball to be effective and can't consistently make spot up shots is far from optimal.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
Take the 09 team. [B] How about just give it a quality all nba player. Give the 09 Cavs a Bosh or Gasol. That is what they needed.[/B] Its not like the 09 roster needed a huge makeover. It just needed a reliable 2nd option and [B]a threat to score from the post.[/B][/QUOTE]
Honestly, I don't even think so.
Yes, the lack of a better 2nd option was exposed, and if Mo shoots anywhere near as well as he usually does(instead of 37% like in the ECF), then the Cavs make it to the '09 finals at least.
But even with that, it came down to Orlando being a bad match up with lewis at the 4 and nobody to guard Howard, and also everything going wrong.
Games 1 and 4 are Cleveland victories if not for a single 3 by Lewis at the end of each game(or end of regulation in game 4).
And as good as Howard was(and I think he was already a top 4 player in the league), you simply don't expect him to do the things that he did in that series. Nobody would've said he'd average 26/13/3 on not only 65% from the field, but 70% from the line. Nobody would've thought he'd score 10 points in OT in game 4 or drop 40 in any game, much less to close out the series.
And it's pretty amazing that Lebron kept Cleveland competitive with bad luck and Orlando being a horrible match up for them(as well as a very talented team).
Now, Lebron wasn't perfect(nobody is), but it'd be really picky to point out his play down the stretch in game 4 and his quiet game 6 given how unstoppable he was throughout the series(39/8/8, 49 FG% with the gamewinner in game 2).
But honestly, the best realistic scenario is '09 Ray Allen on that team in place in place of either Mo or Delonte. Better player than either, but not even all-nba by that point. But Ray would've also been an ideal fit due to his ability to play off the ball. I think Cleveland wins a title if he has Ray, and not even just adding him to the Cavs, but replacing one of their guards and I think that's enough to put them over the top given Lebron's historically great play, the Cavs defense, rebounding and shoting. The '09 Cavs players fit well around him, but that's merely a good cast and built for the regular season.
And something that nobody brings up is that while Brown is a very good defensive coach, other all time greats like Jordan, Magic, Kareem, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan ect. were all winning with superior coaches, and that's very important in a series. I don't see Phil Jackson, Gregg Popovich or Pat Riley looking as clueless as Brown and failing to make adjustments during that series.
I blame Lebron more for 2010 because despite being on a less talented team, you can reasonably say that Cleveland could've won that series if Lebron plays anywhere near his usual level the final 3 games(when they had a 2-1 lead). The same can't be said for 2009 when Lebron did just about all you could ask an individual to do in that series.
[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Honestly, I don't even think so.
Yes, the lack of a better 2nd option was exposed, and if Mo shoots anywhere near as well as he usually does(instead of 37% like in the ECF), then the Cavs make it to the '09 finals at least.
But even with that, it came down to Orlando being a bad match up with lewis at the 4 and nobody to guard Howard, and also everything going wrong.
Games 1 and 4 are Cleveland victories if not for a single 3 by Lewis at the end of each game(or end of regulation in game 4).
And as good as Howard was(and I think he was already a top 4 player in the league), you simply don't expect him to do the things that he did in that series. Nobody would've said he'd average 26/13/3 on not only 65% from the field, but 70% from the line. Nobody would've thought he'd score 10 points in OT in game 4 or drop 40 in any game, much less to close out the series.
And it's pretty amazing that Lebron kept Cleveland competitive with bad luck and Orlando being a horrible match up for them(as well as a very talented team).
Now, Lebron wasn't perfect(nobody is), but it'd be really picky to point out his play down the stretch in game 4 and his quiet game 6 given how unstoppable he was throughout the series(39/8/8, 49 FG% with the gamewinner in game 2).
But honestly, the best realistic scenario is '09 Ray Allen on that team in place in place of either Mo or Delonte. Better player than either, but not even all-nba by that point. But Ray would've also been an ideal fit due to his ability to play off the ball. I think Cleveland wins a title if he has Ray, and not even just adding him to the Cavs, but replacing one of their guards and I think that's enough to put them over the top given Lebron's historically great play, the Cavs defense, rebounding and shoting. The '09 Cavs players fit well around him, but that's merely a good cast and built for the regular season.
And something that nobody brings up is that while Brown is a very good defensive coach, other all time greats like Jordan, Magic, Kareem, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan ect. were all winning with superior coaches, and that's very important in a series. I don't see Phil Jackson, Gregg Popovich or Pat Riley looking as clueless as Brown and failing to make adjustments during that series.
I blame Lebron more for 2010 because despite being on a less talented team, you can reasonably say that Cleveland could've won that series if Lebron plays anywhere near his usual level the final 3 games(when they had a 2-1 lead). The same can't be said for 2009 when Lebron did just about all you could ask an individual to do in that series.[/QUOTE]
Well sure. They were already close with the very average roster they had....but that might not have been enough to beat the Lakers.
Ray Allen is a great fit on paper, but even he is not immune to going cold from the field....as we saw him in 2010 finals.
I would have just loved to see Lebron play from 07 through 10 with another top 15 or 20 player in the NBA that actually complemented his game. Usually that is what it takes to win. Two all nba players, a quality supporting cast, and a good to great coach.
Until this year, Lebron has simply never had that.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Well sure. They were already close with the very average roster they had....but that might not have been enough to beat the Lakers.
Ray Allen is a great fit on paper, but even he is not immune to going cold from the field....as we saw him in 2010 finals.
I would have just loved to see Lebron play from 07 through 10 with another top 15 or 20 player in the NBA that actually complemented his game. Usually that is what it takes to win. Two all nba players, a quality supporting cast, and a good to great coach.
Until this year, Lebron has simply never had that.[/QUOTE]
Rip Hamilton would've been the best fit IMO. Though one of the big problems I think has become apparent though is that he needs the ball way to much. Even Shaq didn't really fit with Cleveland in 10 because when they ran anything through the post Lebron didn't do anything but stand around.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
It would be like Jordan and Kobe playing on the same team.[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure why you think this wouldn't work. Both players have every skill in the book. They both defend. Would taking over a game be an issue? Maybe. I don't think it would be though.
However, as far as them being able to coexist on the court, it would work. The only problem i see is that neither are a true SF. MJ could do it, but i'd rather have a bigger body for that position.
[QUOTE=cteach111]I'm not sure why you think this wouldn't work. Both players have every skill in the book. They both defend. Would taking over a game be an issue? Maybe. I don't think it would be though.
However, as far as them being able to coexist on the court, it would work. The only problem i see is that neither are a true SF. MJ could do it, but i'd rather have a bigger body for that position.[/QUOTE]
What is your definition of work? I mean, Lebron and Wade worked to a degree this year. They both put up great numbers and they both were beasts on defense. They made the NBA finals.....and they did all of that while having one of the worst benches in the history of the league.
Like I said, Kobe and Jordan could work because they are so great...but that doesn't mean its optimal.
You would simply rather have a player like Pippen next to MJ than Kobe....Kobe is obviously better, but you don't need two guys that want to get 30 every night and need the ball in their hands a lot. Could it work? Sure...but its not a great fit.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Well sure. They were already close with the very average roster they had....but that might not have been enough to beat the Lakers.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but I don't think LA would have caused as many match up problems as Orlando did. And at the very least, Cleveland would have clear advantages at 2 positions(PG and SF), center as well if you're looking at starting lineups considering Bynum was injured and so foul prone, but because of that, Odom came in and played starters minutes with Gasol at center so LA really has the advantages on paper at 3 positions and the superior coach.
Either way, I don't see Odom doing what Lewis did to Cleveland simply because he's not the 3 point shooter Lewis was. Lewis led the NBA in 3s made and during the Cleveland series he could pretty much get open 3s, or put the ball on the floor and get an easy shot if one of Cleveland's 4s tried to get out and guard him. And as good as Gasol is, he's not going to dominate to the extent that Howard did.
But it probably would've been a great series because Lebron and Kobe were both playing so well. Lebron was playing the best basketball of his career and even Kobe was playing some of the best basketball of his longer career during the '09 playoffs.
[QUOTE]Ray Allen is a great fit on paper, but even he is not immune to going cold from the field....as we saw him in 2010 finals.
I would have just loved to see Lebron play from 07 through 10 with another top 15 or 20 player in the NBA that actually complemented his game. Usually that is what it takes to win. Two all nba players, a quality supporting cast, and a good to great coach.
Until this year, Lebron has simply never had that.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, and Ray didn't have a good series vs Orlando in 2009, but he was still an all-star(and not a particularly questionable all-star like Mo), about as good of a fit as I can see looking over both the all-nba and all-star teams and he had a great season. He finished 2nd in TS%, 2nd in 3s made, 2nd in FT%, 5th in eFG% and averaged 18+ ppg. And even if it was a triple OT game, you have to be a real threat to score 51 in a playoff game as Ray did in 2009.
[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Yeah, but I don't think LA would have caused as many match up problems as Orlando did. And at the very least, Cleveland would have clear advantages at 2 positions(PG and SF), center as well if you're looking at starting lineups considering Bynum was injured and so foul prone, but because of that, Odom came in and played starters minutes with Gasol at center so LA really has the advantages on paper at 3 positions and the superior coach.
Either way, I don't see Odom doing what Lewis did to Cleveland simply because he's not the 3 point shooter Lewis was. Lewis led the NBA in 3s made and during the Cleveland series he could pretty much get open 3s, or put the ball on the floor and get an easy shot if one of Cleveland's 4s tried to get out and guard him. And as good as Gasol is, he's not going to dominate to the extent that Howard did.
But it probably would've been a great series because Lebron and Kobe were both playing so well. Lebron was playing the best basketball of his career and even Kobe was playing some of the best basketball of his longer career during the '09 playoffs.
Yeah, and Ray didn't have a good series vs Orlando in 2009, but he was still an all-star(and not a particularly questionable all-star like Mo), about as good of a fit as I can see looking over both the all-nba and all-star teams and he had a great season. He finished 2nd in TS%, 2nd in 3s made, 2nd in FT%, 5th in eFG% and averaged 18+ ppg. And even if it was a triple OT game, you have to be a real threat to score 51 in a playoff game as Ray did in 2009.[/QUOTE]
For sure. I love their chances with Ray Allen....its just not a slam dunk for sure title or anything.
But we agree. The 09 team was close...and possibly could have won the title with what they had. That team really did suffer from some terrible luck against the Magic. Mo was awful, and the Lewis made those big shots....even if he just misses one...I bet the Cavs win.
However, that doesn't change the fact that the 09 Cavs were a flawed team. I just would have loved to see Lebron play from 07 through 10 with another quality player that fit well with him. You see teams with:
Duncan/Manu/Parker
KG/Pierce/Allen
Kobe/Gasol/Odom
Those teams all had quality supporting casts and coaching as well. I would love to have seen what Lebron could have done playing with similar talent that fit around him. Lebron/Allen/Bosh....I know its crazy to say this after we just saw Lebron/Wade/Bosh lose with some decent player 4 through 8, but I don't see how that team doesn't win in 09....and really 10 as well.
I actually think that Joe Johnson would have been a great fit on the Cavs. Mo/JJ/Lebron/Andy/Z in 09 would have been sick. JJ would be a great fit in my opinion because he's perfectly suited for that 2nd option role. He's a knock down shooter. He can create his own shot. He doesn't want to be the superstar and dominate the ball. And he's capable of guarding sg's even though he's big. The size alone of JJ/Lebron/Andy/Z would be a great asset. Mo could do less creating and just spot up more...which is really what he's good at. I think that ability of someone else being able to create for themselves or others consistently is really important. That is what has killed Mo in the playoffs. He's been asked to do too much for what he's capable of. Mo is a third option on a contending team....and a really good one in my opinion. JJ would have given that team another guy to rely on to create and score...and also another knock down shooter to space the floor.
And is not like Mo/JJ/Lebron/Andy/Z is some amazingly stacked team that is unfair or something...it would just be the norm for title winning teams.