Dirk is above KG in the all-time list

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]That is why I listed fg% and 3p% as well....i listed everything.

There isn't one area in playoff scoring that Kobe beats Dirk in. Not ppg, not fg%, not 3p%, not ft%......not one.

Would anyone claim Kobe as not an elite scorer? Of course not.

And again, 8th all time in playoff ppg and no matter how you break it down...one of the most efficient high volume scorers in the history of the nba playoffs.

oh, and he's one of the most clutch players of his era and all time in terms of scoring....and he's a rock solid 5 of 12 on playoff game winners.

kobe? 7 of 25 on playoff game winners.

no matter how you break it down, dirk is absolutely right there with Kobe as a scorer in the playoffs.[/QUOTE]

Dirk does get credit for having a long peak. I think he was elite one year but he is more of a consistently high scorer in the playoffs than he is an elite scorer.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]

If another player scores more than you, who is the greater scorer? If you are not among the top scorers, it is impossible to be an elite scorer. I'll just stick with the elite argument for now, maybe we do the next to elite later.
[/QUOTE]

Dirk averages more PPG in the playoffs than Kobe. So you're saying that Dirk is more of an elite scorer in the playoffs than Kobe?

I'm not necessarily saying Dirk is more of an elite scorer, but that's where your logic is taking it.

Another thing that goes into this is that almost anyone would agree that Dirk is almost impossible to defend. To me, the group of people who are "almost impossible to defend" are all in that upper echelon.

Dirk's highest scoring outputs in the playoffs:

28.4 on 49% eFG
27.7 on 51% eFG
27.0 on 49% eFG
26.8 on 51% eFG
26.7 on 57% eFG

Kobe's highest scoring outputs in the playoffs:
32.8 on 50% eFG
32.1 on 47% eFG
30.2 on 49% eFG
30.1 on 51% eFG
29.4 on 49% eFG

Kobe has SIX playoff runs with a higher ppg than Dirk and he is right there with him efficiency wise.. from the field they shoot almost the same[Dirk is 1% higher in FG and eFG] except that Kobe does it on a much higher volume.. which would make Dirk's efficiencies drop well more than that 1%. Probably 2 to 3% if he tried to score on Kobe's volume.. possibly even more. He's not on his level as a scorer in the playoffs or the regular season.. pretty much undebatable.

I didn't say that Dirk was better. I was saying his logic is bad, which sounds like I'm sort of agreeing with you... even though I don't agree with the way you put it. I said that Dirk has a higher career PPG which, under his very limited logic model, says that Dirk is more of an elite scorer in the playoffs. My point was to take other things into consideration other than PPG.

But anyway.. you're wrong about Kobe being withen 1% efficiency. If we're going off those seasons you listed, Kobe is at 49.2% and Dirk is at 51.4%. And if we take your idea and lower Dirk's efficiencies by 2% assuming he tries to shoot at Kobe's volume... He'd get the extra points and STILL have .2 higher efficiency than Kobe.

Also, I'm not a big fan of dropping off player's seasons with bad numbers just because it helps my argument. I've never done it with Dirk, even though he was garbage early in his career. To me, that's the tradeoff for having more seasons you can (probably) play, meaning more seasons you can rack up stats and title runs.

[QUOTE=FF1]Dirk averages more PPG in the playoffs than Kobe. So you're saying that Dirk is more of an elite scorer in the playoffs than Kobe?
.[/QUOTE]
Nah.. what he's saying is that Dirk has maintained his 25 ppg averages more consistently than Kobe over the course of his career. Kobe started off scoring 8 ppg for a few years, and then he went into the teens. and then to the low twenties, and then he started to explode into the thirties. In his prime though, he was in the thirties. Dirk never approached that.

So you can say career wise Dirk is on Kobe's level because Kobe took longer to mature[because he came straight from HS] but thats like saying Pau Gasol is on Kevin Garnett's level as a player since they both have 20/10 career averages. It's just a skewed comparison that lacks all context.

[QUOTE=FF1]Ya lets just throw out seasons that don't fit in with your agenda. Sure.[/QUOTE]
Use 2001-2010 prime Kobe versus 2002-2011 prime Dirk. How is that not fair? Comparing Kobe's numbers when he was a bench player to Dirk's as a first option somehow is though?

Again.. Pau Gasol=Kevin Garnett.. both 20/10 career averages. The fact that KG had to adapt straight from HS and Pau came in a seasoned Euro vet doesnt matter right?

lol. Dork can't see Kobe as a scorer.

40+ point games
Kobe--110
Dork--20

50+ point games
Kobe--25
Dork--2

60+ point games
Kobe--5
Dork--0

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[QUOTE=NugzHeat3]Iverson isn't even as good of a scorer as Dirk and you have him up there with Jordan and Kobe.

Then you wonder why people are laughing at you. [/quote]

:lol seriously. Look up the word scorer. It will say something about total points scored or one who scores. Not one thing will appear about how or the level of accuracy. I never said anything about offensive impact. Your little thesis below isn't applicable. A scorer scores. Now if you say complete scorer or efficient scorer then your little irrelevant thesis below could mean something. But it isn't like we are asking for a lot of understanding from you to understand this.

At the end of the day Iverson was asked for an uncommon scoring burden. He could win while taking on that scoring burden. I don't fault him in loosing to a prime Shaq and a good Kobe that year and sorry, if Shaq does a Lebron Philly wins that year. The difference between AI and most scorers is that he can consistently take on the burden and even get to the finals with it. You know like I know that Iverson wasn't getting calls - Shaq even commented on this. Not even Jordan consistently went at the basket like Iverson.

Iverson attacked like few other players. You can't measure his impact against a guy that had the convenience of rarely stepping out of his comfort zone. Read the Art of War. A guy that disorients the defense and causes confusion isn't operating at the same level of a jump shooter. And AI was further into enemy territory than Dirk. AI made himself taller by getting deep into the defense and was flat out more prolific.

[QUOTE=tpols]
So you can say career wise Dirk is on Kobe's level because Kobe took longer to mature[because he came straight from HS] but thats like saying Pau Gasol is on Kevin Garnett's level as a player since they both have 20/10 career averages. It's just a skewed comparison that lacks all context.[/QUOTE]

But Dirk vs Kobe isn't skewed because they both didn't go to college. Dirk should get credit for having a longer (more consistant, matured faster?) scoring ability than Kobe.

Plus even with you picking and choosing 5 seasons, Dirk still has 2.2% efficiency on Kobe which you implied would get Dirk to Kobe's volume.

Both their career playoff high is 50 points. (against the same team).

For their career, they are both virtually impossible to stop.

[QUOTE=Jacks3]lol. Dork can't see Kobe as a scorer.

40+ point games
Kobe--110
Dork--20

50+ point games
Kobe--25
Dork--2

60+ point games
Kobe--5
Dork--0

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:[/QUOTE]

We're talking about playoffs, bro. As a Mavs fan, I've heard that that's the only time that counts.


Plus.. where the hell did I say that Dirk was a better scorer than Kobe? I was just saying that some of the reasons people were throwing out were dumb.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]:lol seriously. Look up the word scorer. It will say something about total points scored or one who scores. Not one thing will appear about how or the level of accuracy. I never said anything about offensive impact. Your little thesis below isn't applicable. A scorer scores. Now if you say complete scorer or efficient scorer then your little irrelevant thesis below could mean something. But it isn't like we are asking for a lot of understanding from you to understand this.

At the end of the day Iverson was asked for an uncommon scoring burden. He could win while taking on that scoring burden. I don't fault him in loosing to a prime Shaq and a good Kobe that year and sorry, if Shaq does a Lebron Philly wins that year. The difference between AI and most scorers is that he can consistently take on the burden and even get to the finals with it. You know like I know that Iverson wasn't getting calls - Shaq even commented on this. Not even Jordan consistently went at the basket like Iverson.

Iverson attacked like few other players. You can't measure his impact against a guy that had the convenience of rarely stepping out of his comfort zone. Read the Art of War. A guy that disorients the defense and causes confusion isn't operating at the same level of a jump shooter. And AI was further into enemy territory than Dirk. AI made himself taller by getting deep into the defense and was flat out more prolific.[/QUOTE]

% have to come into play at some point. Ty Lawson can take every shot in a game and have 31 points on horrible shooting, while Dirk scores 31 on 60% shooting. People are going to say Dirk was the better scorer. It's not as black and white as "however many points are in the boxscore".

[QUOTE=FF1]We're talking about playoffs, bro. As a Mavs fan, I've heard that that's the only time that counts.


Plus.. where the hell did I say that Dirk was a better scorer than Kobe?[/QUOTE]
He's not as good in the PS. He's nowhere near as good in the RS.

What is there to discuss? He isn't on Kobe's level.

Seriously. Look at those numbers again. Kobe absolutely blows him away.

[QUOTE=Jacks3]He's not as good in the PS. He's nowhere near as good in the RS.

What is there to discuss? He isn't on Kobe's level.

Seriously. Look at those numbers again. Kobe absolutely blows him away.[/QUOTE]

You didn't say anything about the PS except "He's not as good in the PS". Not really a big argument there.

Over their career, Dirk has a higher PPG. Over 5 prime seasons Kobe has a few points higher on 2+% less efficiency. Their career highs are the same.

[QUOTE=FF1]Dirk averages more PPG in the playoffs than Kobe. So you're saying that Dirk is more of an elite scorer in the playoffs than Kobe?

I'm not necessarily saying Dirk is more of an elite scorer, but that's where your logic is taking it.

Another thing that goes into this is that almost anyone would agree that Dirk is almost impossible to defend. To me, the group of people who are "almost impossible to defend" are all in that upper echelon.[/QUOTE]
This isn't really true at all. Dirk had a good year this year, but Stephen Jackson held him down in the playoffs before. He has never been elite as a prolific scorer over the course of a whole year. We don't know if Dirk can handle being a top scorer for a whole year, game in and game out. This is not unreasonable for any player in any sport to be considered elite.

[QUOTE=FF1]

Over their career, Dirk has a higher PPG. Over 5 prime seasons Kobe has a few points higher on 2+% less efficiency. Their career highs are the same.[/QUOTE]
Kobe has more 40+ point games. He has more 30+ point games.

His averages are way higher. He has about 7 post-seasons with higher averages than Dirk's absolute best.

Then he crushes Dork in the RS.

Dork isn't close.