Wilt's Tall Tales

[QUOTE=jlauber]You're kidding right?

I could post page-after-page of quotes from peers. media, fans..you name it. And if you are referring to me, I SAW MANY of Chamberlain's games televised live, and even two of them in person. Both in the 72-73 season in Oakland.

I have said it before, but I watched a TON of Russell-Wilt matchups from the early 60's until their final game in game seven of the '69 Finals, and I never came away thinking that Russell had outplayed Chamberlain. Having said that, in the vast majority of them, Russell's teammates outplayed Wilt's. Russell deserved at least some of the credit, and while I find it hard to believe, perhaps Wilt deserved some of the blame.

In any case, there are some idiots out there, most noteably Bill Simmons, who had this insane perception that Russell "let" Wilt score, and then would "shut him down" in the 4th quarters. There was just too much evidence to the contrary. Furthermore, Russell's Celtics went 85-57 against Wilt's teams (and 29-20 in the playoffs), so it was not like Russell HOF-laden teams were beating Wilt's teams in every game. In fact, as I have said many times, Wilt was a total of NINE points, from having a 5-3 playoff edge in their post-season H2H's (losses in game seven's by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2.) No one is going to convince me that Russell was THAT brilliant, that he could control a game to THAT degree (or that he could hit a guidewire with an inbounds pass, with a one point lead...and KNOWING that "Havlicek would steal the ball" on the Sixers inbounds pass.)

And, IF Russell were truly a better player than Chamberlain, where are the games that prove it? I can show DOZENS of games in which Wilt CRUSHED Russell, both in losses, and in WINS (and yes, even in close games.) Finally, how about this example? In the clinching game five loss of the '66 ECF's, Wilt hung a 46 point, 34 rebound game on Russell (on 19-34 shooting.) The very next season, Russell was on the opposite side of that scenario. His Celtics had just narrowly avoided a sweep, and were down 3-1. How did Russell respond when his team desperately needed him to step up? He scored FOUR points (with 21 rebounds.) Meanwhile, Wilt poured in 29 points (22 in the first half when the game was still close), on 10-16 shooting, with 36 rebounds, 13 assists, and 7 blocks. If Russell were truly the better player, why couldn't he elevate his offense against Wilt when his teammates obviously needed him to?

I also saw the majority of the Kareem-Wilt battles, including all of the '72 WCF's. Kareem was the best player in the game by that point. He was at his absolute best, and was at his peak athletically. He would bulk up after that, and he would add some range to his offense, but he was never as quick, or as athletic as he was early on in his career.

Chamberlain was much stronger, of course, and used his weight to keep Kareem from positioning himself closer to the basket, BUT, it was Wilt's VERTICAL that limited Kareem's efficiency. Even at age 35, Chamberlain had a higher leap than a young Kareem.

And, as I have (and other's) have posted, Wilt was ROUTINELY blocking the "unblockable" skyhook. What was interesting was that I honestly believe that it was Nate Thurmond's defense against Kareem in their early H2H's that may have tipped Wilt on how to play Kareem. I am speculating, of course, but in the '72 regular season, Kareem had his greatest statistical regular season against Wilt. BTW, it was his ONLY regular season in which he shot 50% against Wilt (in his other three he shot .429, .438, and .450.)

Granted, some of Kareem's scoring in that '72 H2H regular season against Chamberlain was "stats-padding." For example, in his 50 point game against Wilt, Chameberlain's Lakers were comfortably in command throughout, and ran away with a 123-107 win. Furthermore, Kareem took 39 shots against him. And while Kareem was gunning all game long, Wilt was pounding him on the glass at both ends of the floor (a 25-8 edge in rebounding.)

However, after Thurmond OUTPLAYED Kareem in the '72 playoffs (Nate outscored and outshot Kareem), Wilt seem to body Kareem more. Wilt probably had the highest "straight-up" leap in NBA history, and it allowed him to literally stick to Kareem like glue, and yet still go straight up to challenge the skyhook. And, in the last four games of the '72 WCF's, Wilt held Kareem to .414 shooting (.457 overall), in a season in which Kareem shot .574. In fact, after an embarrassing first game loss, the Lakers won four of the last five games, including a 25 point annihilation in game five, and a come-from-behind clinching win in game six, in which Wilt dominated Kareem down the stretch.

And, if anything, Wilt was just as dominant against Kareem in the very next season (Wilt's LAST.) The two went H2H in six regular season games, and while Kareem outscored Wilt, per game, 29-11, Chameberlain outshot Kareem, .737 to .450. Included in those six games, was one game in which Wilt outscored Kareem, 24-21, while outshooting him, 10-14 to 10-27.

Interesting too, was the playoffs in that 72-73 season. Kareem's 60-22 Bucks were stunned by Nate's 47-35 Warriors, in a series in which Thurmond reduced Kareem to a .428 shooter (and once again, in the '71 playoffs, Nate not only outscored Kareem, per game, 25-23, he outshot Kareem in that series, .437 to .405.)

Then, in the WCF's, Wilt just murdered Thurmond, outrebounding him by a 23.6 to 17.2 rpg margin, and outshooting Nate by a .550 to .398 margin. And, Wilt's 60-22 Lakers just slapped Nate's Warriors, 4-1, including a game three blowout in Oakland of 126-70, in a game that I attended. Wilt badly outrebounded Nate in that game, and while I don't recall the numbers, Wilt blocked a ton of shots.

Of course, unlike the Russell-Wilt battles, we never saw a PRIME Wilt battle a prime Kareem. The closest example we had was their very first meeting, when Kareem was a rookie, and Wilt was in his 11th season. In that game, Wilt pounded Kareem in every aspect of that game, outscoring him, 25-23; outrebounding him, 25-20; outassisting him, 5-2; outblocking him, 3-2; and outshooting him, 9-14 to 9-21 (.643 to .429.)

In fact, very few fans know this, but that game was one of Wilt's first nine games in that 69-70 season. Wilt's new coach, Joe Mullaney, had asked Wilt to focus on the offensive end before the season started, and a rejuvenated Wilt came out on fire. He was leading the league at 32.2 ppg, (on .600 shooting with 20 rpg), when he shredded his knee in that ninth game (in game in which he had scored 33 points on 13-13 shooting.) Now, keep in mind that rookie Kareem averaged 28.8 ppg on .518 shooting that season. We will never know, of course, but Wilt was perhaps on his way to his eighth scoring title.

In any case, while Kareem would go on to become an even greater player, that was also not a PRIME Wilt, either. And from those here that actually saw Wilt perform in his career, it seems to be a consensus that a prime Wilt would have certainly scored much more against Kareem, than the OLD Wilt, who was playing on a surgically repaired knee in 27 of their last 28 H2H's.

BTW, more-and-more VIDEO footage of Chamberlain is being released, and we are now getting confirmation on what us "old-timers" knew all along. Wilt was an incredible athlete, with perhaps the highest REACH in NBA history (we have VIDEO footage of a Wilt block in which his fingertips are within a couple of inches of the top of the backboard), with a solid range of 15+ ft, which included a WIDE array of moves. And, of course, the "myths" that Wilt only played against 6-6 white centers was blown to bits a long time ago.[/QUOTE]

Question, who do you think is the GOAT?

[QUOTE=32jazz]And if you have one what do you tell her about wasting your time obssessing over Wilt?

I am sure you could be doing better things than worrying about Wilt, right?[/QUOTE]

I have a girlfriend actually and only 1/10 of every post I've written over these 5 years I've been here has been about Wilt. And I average 1.6 posts per day..

And what about you sucking up for Jlauber, the best u can do?..:facepalm

[QUOTE=-23-]Question, who do you think is the GOAT?[/QUOTE]

I actually have refined it down to FOUR players. Russell, who had 11 rings, and many at Wilt's expense, BUT, with much better rosters and teammates who played much better than Wilt's (and yet Wilt still nearly beat him in four game seven's. Then MJ, who was the game's greatest post-season scorer (but he didn't win until he had the best rosters in the league...take a look at the 92-93 and 93-94 seasons.) Magic, ELEVATED his teams to championship level, and who, even without Kareem won a game six title, and had seasons of 63-19 and 58-24 (and a trip to the Finals), and who before he arrived, and immediately after he retired, left LA with the same record as when he arrived. And, then Wilt, who was not only the greatest statistical player of all-time, and by a HUGE margin, but who was, at WORST, the second greatest PLAYOFF performer of all-time. And, not only did he put up MASSIVE numbers in the post-season, he either outplayed, or downright DOMINATED his opposing centers in virtually EVERY one of his 29 post-season series.

After that, I have Kareem.

Then Shaq with a slight edge over Duncan.

Then a big drop-off to either Kobe or Bird (although Kobe will most certainly retire ahead of him.)

Then, either Hakeem or Moses.

One day Lebron may surpass all but my top-four or five.

[QUOTE=millwad]I have a girlfriend actually and only 1/10 of every post I've written over these 5 years I've been here has been about Wilt. And I average 1.6 posts per day..

And what about you sucking up for Jlauber, the best u can do?..:facepalm[/QUOTE]

Then wouldn't' your time be better served worrying about your girlfriend & spending time with her than worrying about Wilt or specific posters here?

Because I thoroughly enjoy Jlauber's informative post & get sick of losers hijacking the threads with petty UNinformative b.s.. I have learned a lot about Wilt through the guy.

If you don't believe the posts or have facts to disprove it why waste time?:confusedshrug: I don't get it.

The man may be a retiree who has extra time on his hands.

I think JLauber isn't 56. I reckon he's in his late teens/early twenties, thinks if he says he is older, his arguements hold more water. No proof of his age. All he does is pull stats out.

[QUOTE=Horatio33]I think JLauber isn't 56. I reckon he's in his late teens/early twenties, thinks if he says he is older, his arguements hold more water. No proof of his age. [B]All he does is pull stats out[/B].[/QUOTE]


GTFO!

I have produced TONS of QUOTES from peers, coach's, media members, and respected sports icons. I have produced VIDEO footage (and more and more is becoming available.) I have produced NEWSPAPER articles. MAGAZINE articles. GAME RECAPS. Just what in the hell more can I do? I can't transport the "anti-Wilt" clan, like yourself, back to the 60's, ...and even if I did, and you saw it with your own eyes, you guys would STILL dispute it.

What is also interesting is that there are now a number of posters here who actually SAW Chamberlain play. La Frescobaldi, Helix, CavalierFan, and myself. Virtually ALL of us believe that Wilt was the best we ever saw. And I am not sure about Pslieas, and Gotterdamn, either. Then, we have EDUCATED posters, who have seen FOOTAGE (some of which the rest of us have not...Pointguard being one), or produced a TON of information, like Pointguard, Psileas, and PHILA...and here again, those guys rank Chamberlain at either at the top, or very near it.

I haven't read one poster who here who actually saw Chamberlain play, that has ripped him. (And BTW, Bill Simmons NEVER saw Chamberlain play, either. He was born in 1969.)

And one more damned time...there are HUNDREDS of eye-witness accounts, by the players, coaches, members of the media, and fans, which chronicle Wilt's amazing physical feats. BUT, where are the LEGITIMATE sources that were around in the Wilt-era that DISPUTE them?

Don't you think that SOMEONE would have witnessed Wilt attempting to touch the top of the backboard, and failing? Or working out with Chamberlain, and disputing the claims of 500+ lb bench presses? Why?

[QUOTE=Horatio33]I think JLauber isn't 56. I reckon he's in his late teens/early twenties, thinks if he says he is older, his arguements hold more water. No proof of his age. All he does is pull stats out.[/QUOTE]
Naaah, read his post... you can tell he experienced the times because he knows the ins and outs too well. He is one of the best conceptual posters around here. He ties in the stats with what was happening. He remembers different rules and little guys that stepped up and did big things. His stats back him up. He uses stats.

[QUOTE=jlauber]I actually have refined it down to FOUR players. Russell, who had 11 rings, and many at Wilt's expense, BUT, with much better rosters and teammates who played much better than Wilt's (and yet Wilt still nearly beat him in four game seven's. Then MJ, who was the game's greatest post-season scorer (but he didn't win until he had the best rosters in the league...take a look at the 92-93 and 93-94 seasons.) Magic, ELEVATED his teams to championship level, and who, even without Kareem won a game six title, and had seasons of 63-19 and 58-24 (and a trip to the Finals), and who before he arrived, and immediately after he retired, left LA with the same record as when he arrived. And, then Wilt, who was not only the greatest statistical player of all-time, and by a HUGE margin, but who was, at WORST, the second greatest PLAYOFF performer of all-time. And, not only did he put up MASSIVE numbers in the post-season, he either outplayed, or downright DOMINATED his opposing centers in virtually EVERY one of his 29 post-season series.

After that, I have Kareem.

Then Shaq with a slight edge over Duncan.

Then a big drop-off to either Kobe or Bird (although Kobe will most certainly retire ahead of him.)

Then, either Hakeem or Moses.

One day Lebron may surpass all but my top-four or five.[/QUOTE]
Wilt is about 9th alltime
He hasn't won as much as the other greats and choked too much
And I don't care about the stats you're about to post in that weak era

He's the greatest Laker of all-time. Deal with it.

Wilt "owned" Kareem

So, Deuce, what do you do on this board other than attack players?

[QUOTE=mrpibb]He's the greatest Laker of all-time. Deal with it.[/QUOTE]

Magic, Kobe, Shaq, West and Jabbar says hi:no:

[QUOTE=mrpibb]So, Deuce, what do you do on this board other than attack players?[/QUOTE]
who do I attack?

[QUOTE=millwad]Magic, Kobe, Shaq, West and Jabbar says hi:no:[/QUOTE]

Wilt returns the greeting and asks how it feels to be second or lower.

[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]who do I attack?[/QUOTE]

Lebron and Wilt. All the god damn time.

[QUOTE=millwad]Magic, Kobe, Shaq, West and Jabbar says hi:no:[/QUOTE]
LMAO did he say WIlt was the greatest laker?
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: