Was Scottie Pippen at least once robbed for Defensive Player of the Year?

The question should ask, "Did Pippen deserve a DPOY"....maybe. Was he "robbed". NO...There were other guys deserving as well.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Why not over Robinson? Robinson had Dennis Rodman playing alongside him. What did Pippen have? His bigs were Will Perdue, Luc Longley, who missed half the season if i remember correct, Bill Wennington who was decent, Dickey Simpkins, Corie Blount, Larry Krystsowiak, and Toni Kukoc. How the bulls finishe second in the league in defense is a testament to Pippen. SECOND. None of the players i named should be considered defensive anchors.

And whats with this "intimidation" factor? The fact is the spurs finished ninth and the nuggets fourteenth in team defense, while the bulls finished second. So opposing offense werent too intimidated by the spurs and nuggets

What more could pippen have done?[/QUOTE]
I would ask why Pippen SHOULD be ahead of Robinson. Robinson is superior by defensive win shares, is superior statistically. Pippen's case is exclusively at the team level.

What is intimidation? Well, do you not know? Good shot blockers deter players from driving, alter shots without ever making contact with the ball, either by coming close to blocking or purely psychologically. Mark Eaton has suggested (something along the lines of) his being a better shot blocker when his numbers came down because he knew he was dettering players from taking shots, or driving when they otherwise would have. Elite wing or perimeter defenders may have a psychological effect to some extent (say the primes of Pippen, Jordan, Artest, Kirilenko and Payton), but they would not (unless as part of a team's trapping/pressing system) change an oppossing teams offense the way a dominant shot blocker can.

Players playing alongside them is a distraction from the issue of comparing two players, but for the record I would suggest Rodman was not the defender he had been in Detroit (more single-mindedly persuing rebounds, and whilst still regarded as an elite defender, because D is tough to measure the media often hail players as elite long after they drop off, a la Gary Payton). Furthermore, whilst Pippen played in an established defensive system with stable coaches (Bach had gone but his system was established), Robinson was once again adjusting to a new coach (Bob Hill who replaced John Lucas, who replaced Jerry Tarkanian who replaced Bob Bass, who replaced Larry Brown, note that this list does not include short term interim coaches).

The idea that intimidation played no part just because team defensive ratings were high (or higher) ignores the multiple other factors which affect defensive rating such as pace (which is nominally accounted for but faster paced teams, as San Antonio were, tend to have worse defensive ratings and better offensive ratings than slower paced teams), teammates and especially coaching.

What more could Pippen have done? Very little, it is simply the nature of basketball that a good defensive big man will have more impact than an equally able wing/perimeter player. Bigs can guard their man and protect the rim from other guys, perimeter guys tend to stick with their man, doubling occasionally. Pip might have been the closest thing to an exception because the Bulls trapping (illegal? zone?) defense allowed Pippen some freedom to roam, but not enough that he could impact the game like an elite shot blocker (who also notched a few steals).

better defender than Hakeem and Mutombo? nah

[QUOTE=Owl]I would ask why Pippen SHOULD be ahead of Robinson. Robinson is superior by defensive win shares, is superior statistically. Pippen's case is exclusively at the team level.

What is intimidation? Well, do you not know? Good shot blockers deter players from driving, alter shots without ever making contact with the ball, either by coming close to blocking or purely psychologically. Mark Eaton has suggested (something along the lines of) his being a better shot blocker when his numbers came down because he knew he was dettering players from taking shots, or driving when they otherwise would have. Elite wing or perimeter defenders may have a psychological effect to some extent (say the primes of Pippen, Jordan, Artest, Kirilenko and Payton), but they would not (unless as part of a team's trapping/pressing system) change an oppossing teams offense the way a dominant shot blocker can.

Players playing alongside them is a distraction from the issue of comparing two players, but for the record I would suggest Rodman was not the defender he had been in Detroit (more single-mindedly persuing rebounds, and whilst still regarded as an elite defender, because D is tough to measure the media often hail players as elite long after they drop off, a la Gary Payton). Furthermore, whilst Pippen played in an established defensive system with stable coaches (Bach had gone but his system was established), Robinson was once again adjusting to a new coach (Bob Hill who replaced John Lucas, who replaced Jerry Tarkanian who replaced Bob Bass, who replaced Larry Brown, note that this list does not include short term interim coaches).

The idea that intimidation played no part just because team defensive ratings were high (or higher) ignores the multiple other factors which affect defensive rating such as pace (which is nominally accounted for but faster paced teams, as San Antonio were, tend to have worse defensive ratings and better offensive ratings than slower paced teams), teammates and especially coaching.

What more could Pippen have done? Very little, it is simply the nature of basketball that a good defensive big man will have more impact than an equally able wing/perimeter player. Bigs can guard their man and protect the rim from other guys, perimeter guys tend to stick with their man, doubling occasionally. Pip might have been the closest thing to an exception because the Bulls trapping (illegal? zone?) defense allowed Pippen some freedom to roam, but not enough that he could impact the game like an elite shot blocker (who also notched a few steals).[/QUOTE]
This whole post is contradictory Owl. You want to give credit to Robinson for his role in a defensive scheme but dismiss Pippens. Even suggesting that what pippen did was illegal? I hope you understand that what your doing is giving credit to robinson based on TEAM DEFENSE. But you want to dismiss Pippens role and thecompetiton Bulls being second in team defense as a Team accompplishment but fail to realize that robinson blocked shot based on his role on the Spurs defense.

Make no mistake, players like Robinson accumulate a large portion of their blocks based on the defensive scheme. The perimeter players funnel their man to their teams shotblocker. Rarely do players block the shots of the man theyre defending. Pippens role on the Bulls was much bigger. Due to personnel, jackson leaned heavily on pippen defensively. The bulls defensive scheme was to try to chew up the oppositions shot clock by pressuring the PG and then trapping. The theory was that by doing this, the opposiition would only have 1 chance to run a play, late in the shotclock. Pippen would pick up the PG at full court, then trap at halfcourt, then play man defense (often on the oppositons best perimeter scorer) then help out on the post. All robinson had to do was block shots.

And my point is that what pippen did was so strenuous that i feel he more than deserved the dpoy award due to the success of the teams defense was due to pippen. Especially considering that the bulls roster was filled with bad to mediocre defenders.

I also feel the amount of coaches robinson had shouldnt matter, i doubt very seriously that any of those coaches would stray from the defensive scheme of funneling to robinson.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]This whole post is contradictory Owl. You want to give credit to Robinson for his role in a defensive scheme but dismiss Pippens. Even suggesting that what pippen did was illegal? I hope you understand that what your doing is giving credit to robinson based on TEAM DEFENSE. But you want to dismiss Pippens role and thecompetiton Bulls being second in team defense as a Team accompplishment but fail to realize that robinson blocked shot based on his role on the Spurs defense.

Make no mistake, players like Robinson accumulate a large portion of their blocks based on the defensive scheme. The perimeter players funnel their man to their teams shotblocker. Rarely do players block the shots of the man theyre defending. Pippens role on the Bulls was much bigger. Due to personnel, jackson leaned heavily on pippen defensively. The bulls defensive scheme was to try to chew up the oppositions shot clock by pressuring the PG and then trapping. The theory was that by doing this, the opposiition would only have 1 chance to run a play, late in the shotclock. Pippen would pick up the PG at full court, then trap at halfcourt, then play man defense (often on the oppositons best perimeter scorer) then help out on the post. All robinson had to do was block shots.

And my point is that what pippen did was so strenuous that i feel he more than deserved the dpoy award due to the success of the teams defense was due to pippen. Especially considering that the bulls roster was filled with bad to mediocre defenders.

I also feel the amount of coaches robinson had shouldnt matter, i doubt very seriously that any of those coaches would stray from the defensive scheme of funneling to robinson.[/QUOTE]
No I credited Robinson for helping on other men. Not a defensive scheme.
Obviously all defense is played at a team level but Robinson was simply playing the role all good defensive bigs do, helping and blocking shots. Occasionally there would be funnelling but usually guys don't deliberately allow their man to pass them by.

As to the legality of the defense
"To The Brink" by Michael Lewis: p268-271: Discussion of Pippen roaming from nominal coverage of Greg Ostertag and whether or not it was legal
I could go through other books and direct you to other debates on whether the Bulls D was actually legal or not if you want.

I think the Bull's themselves on their whiteboard in their lockerroom wrote that it was "barely legal". The Bulls D was notorious, it was very good and it was also controversial in terms of whether they were playing a one man zone.

Pippen's role was strenuous. But strenuousness isn't a measure of effectiveness. Myers, Harper, Longley, Perdue were, I would suggest above average. Armstrong (specifically around that time) was considered not bad too. Plus they got some games out of Jordan. I can dig up the Rick Barry scouting report book if you really think that Bulls team was packed with average or below defenders.

And your argument on funnelling and coaching not mattering, even if it were correct and led to all his blocks fails to account for the the huge steal numbers that Robinson put up for a center. Though to be honest given you seem to value (and more questionably, measure individuals through) team defense so much I find it difficult to believe you genuinely don't think coaching matters on the defensive end (I believe it does, quite significantly).

Pippen is one of the all-time great wing defenders, and Robinson Pippen is an interesting defensive comparison as they both shot up early in college and retained their quickness and both contributed blocks and steals. But if I can get blocks and steals and elite athleticism and I get to pick it from 6'8 small forward or a 7'1 center and the center's stats are better (and if looking over a longer period of their careers, the center has once led the league in blocks and finished top 5 in steals) and (less important to me) he has higher defensive win shares, and all Pippen has is the lower defensive rating (which as stated before I'm not convinced is a great measure at the individual level) then I'll take Robinson.

[QUOTE=Owl]No I credited Robinson for helping on other men. Not a defensive scheme.
Obviously all defense is played at a team level but Robinson was simply playing the role all good defensive bigs do, helping and blocking shots. Occasionally there would be funnelling but usually guys don't deliberately allow their man to pass them by.

As to the legality of the defense
"To The Brink" by Michael Lewis: p268-271: Discussion of Pippen roaming from nominal coverage of Greg Ostertag and whether or not it was legal
I could go through other books and direct you to other debates on whether the Bulls D was actually legal or not if you want.

I think the Bull's themselves on their whiteboard in their lockerroom wrote that it was "barely legal". The Bulls D was notorious, it was very good and it was also controversial in terms of whether they were playing a one man zone.

Pippen's role was strenuous. But strenuousness isn't a measure of effectiveness. Myers, Harper, Longley, Perdue were, I would suggest above average. Armstrong (specifically around that time) was considered not bad too. Plus they got some games out of Jordan. I can dig up the Rick Barry scouting report book if you really think that Bulls team was packed with average or below defenders.

And your argument on funnelling and coaching not mattering, even if it were correct and led to all his blocks fails to account for the the huge steal numbers that Robinson put up for a center. Though to be honest given you seem to value (and more questionably, measure individuals through) team defense so much I find it difficult to believe you genuinely don't think coaching matters on the defensive end (I believe it does, quite significantly).

Pippen is one of the all-time great wing defenders, and Robinson Pippen is an interesting defensive comparison as they both shot up early in college and retained their quickness and both contributed blocks and steals. But if I can get blocks and steals and elite athleticism and I get to pick it from 6'8 small forward or a 7'1 center and the center's stats are better (and if looking over a longer period of their careers, the center has once led the league in blocks and finished top 5 in steals) and (less important to me) he has higher defensive win shares, and all Pippen has is the lower defensive rating (which as stated before I'm not convinced is a great measure at the individual level) then I'll take Robinson.[/QUOTE]
Funneling doesnt imply that the perimeter defender ALLOW the ball handler to go past him deliberately. The idea is that its virtually impossible to stay in front of a ball handler so if he does drive, be sure he goes the way the defense wants him to go. And i never saiid coaching doesnt matter. But i fail to see why a coaching change would be brought into this argument when they most likely wouldnt change the defensive strategy. Besides, there wasntt a coaching change for the spurs in 95. So thats a moot point.

I dont see how youu could say pippens contributions didnt net the desired result. They were second in team defense. Obviously the whole team played a role in that accomplishment, but the fact is none of those player outside of pippen were considered even good defenders. Or at least of the players that saw considerable time. Harper barely played cuz he just couldnt pick up the offense that first season. Longley only played half the season and he didnt play very many minutes either due to injuries. So outside of pippen, his next two best defenders were myers and perdue. Both of them were serviceable man defenders, but more known as hustlers and scrappers. Armstrong was never considered much of a defender, as for the rest? You wanna talk about musical chairs? The bulls had five different players start at power forward in kukoc, krystowiak, a rookie in dimpkins, another rookie in blount, and perdue. And four different centers in perdue, wennington, foster, and longley. Out of that group, only Longley, Perdue, and Wennington could be considered decent defnders. But none of them should be considered defensive anchors. Seeing as how you put so much stock and credit defense to bigs, id think youd see how dominant pippen was defensively in 95.

Pippen finished 2nd in defensive of the year voting from 1994 to 1996. Many people thought that he should have been the DPOY in 1996.

He had cases several years but 95' was the most egregious IMO. The Bulls had the #2 defense with no Grant, Rodman, and no Jordan for 80% of the season. Denver had the #14 defense but Mutumbo was given the DPOY by lazy voters enamored with blocks over more subtle team defense on the perimeter that Pippen provided.

[QUOTE=Lebron23;13993670]Pippen finished 2nd in defensive of the year voting from 1994 to 1996. Many people thought that he should have been the DPOY in 1996.[/QUOTE]

Pippen definitely should've win the DPOY Award in 1995.

Where are Pippen's legendary defensive plays like MJ, lebron or tayshaun has?

Where are his signature shut-downs as the primary defender?

Why did the Bulls only rank 7th defensively for the 1st three-peat?? And worse than 4 of 6 ECF/Finals opponents?

The answer to these questions is are the same - Pippen is a vastly overrated defender

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;13993684]He had cases several years but 95' was the most egregious IMO. The Bulls had the #2 defense with no Grant, Rodman, and no Jordan for 80% of the season. Denver had the #14 defense but Mutumbo was given the DPOY by lazy voters enamored with blocks over more subtle team defense on the perimeter that Pippen provided.[/QUOTE]

I think Pippens outburts like sitting out and throwing that chair hurt his overall NBA Market ability. Mutombo was being touted as the next Bill Russell at that time. If Pip hadn't done that, they might've awarded him the DPOY. Pippens career came at a time where great Centers were plentiful. I so wish he could played today. With todays style and the evolution of the game to being more perimeter oriented, he would've had at least won 2 DPOY while averaging 24/9/8. Maybe even an MVP. And that's with him playing alongside Jordan.

.
[INDENT]DPOY VOTING

1988.... MJ (1st).... Pip (none)
1989.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1990.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1991.... MJ (7th).... Pip (7th)
1992.... MJ (3rd).... Pip (3rd)
1993.... MJ (2nd)... Pip (none)
1996.... MJ (5th).... Pip (2nd)
1997.... MJ (5th).... Pip (4th)
1998.... MJ (4th).... Pip (9th)[/INDENT]


^^^^ MJ was clearly considered the better defender [B]AT THE TIME[/B], and Pippen's defensive capabilities have been vastly overrated by revisionist historians since... :confusedshrug:... the dpoy voting and various other sources (like the [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s][B]NBA[/B][/url]) confirm the actual sentiment at the time (that MJ was the Bulls' best defender)

the reason for the revisionist history is simple: when new fans (including media) first heard about MJ's 6 rings, they looked up his roster and didn't see the star-laden cast they expected, or great stats from a sidekick.... so they concluded that Pippen's defense offset the lack of star power or good offensive stats - but this is simply ignorance about what was actually happening at the time

the reality is that the 1st three-peat Bulls were only ranked 7th defensively, so many guys had better defensive help than MJ, including Clyde's Blazers and 4 of 6 ECF/Finals opponents

[QUOTE=97 bulls;13993703]I think Pippens outburts like sitting out and throwing that chair hurt his overall NBA Market ability. Mutombo was being touted as the next Bill Russell at that time. If Pip hadn't done that, they might've awarded him the DPOY. Pippens career came at a time where great Centers were plentiful. I so wish he could played today. With todays style and the evolution of the game to being more perimeter oriented, he would've had at least won 2 DPOY while averaging 24/9/8. Maybe even an MVP. And that's with him playing alongside Jordan.[/QUOTE]

Good points. I think there was a big bias towards centers and blocks back then. Jordan and Payton bucked the trends but Jordan was the NBA golden child and Payton won in a year where Bulls' won MVP, COY, and 6th man so Pippen getting DPOY would have been a clean sweep.

Pippen also was hurt in 94' in both DPOY and MVP by missing 10 games early in the year due to injury. Can you imagine his MVP case if the Bulls won the #1 seed without MJ?

[QUOTE=3ball;13993699]Where are Pippen's legendary defensive plays like MJ, lebron or tayshaun has?

Where are his signature shut-downs as the primary defender?

Why did the Bulls only rank 7th defensively for the 1st three-peat?? And worse than 4 of 6 ECF/Finals opponents?

The answer to these questions is are the same - Pippen is a vastly overrated defender[/QUOTE]

91 Finals game 2 vs Magic
92 Finals when he shut down Drexler in game 6
98 Finals Game 4
98 ECF when he shut down Mark Jackson
As far as plays?
The multiple game saving blocks on Charles Smith

The game saving steal vs the Jazz in 97 that won the Bulls the Chip

The Block vs Danny Ainge to save Game 4 of the 93 NBA Finals. To name a few.

[QUOTE=3ball;13993708].
[INDENT]DPOY VOTING

1988.... MJ (1st).... Pip (none)
1989.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1990.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1991.... MJ (7th).... Pip (7th)
1992.... MJ (3rd).... Pip (3rd)
1993.... MJ (2nd)... Pip (none)
1996.... MJ (5th).... Pip (2nd)
1997.... MJ (5th).... Pip (4th)
1998.... MJ (4th).... Pip (9th)[/INDENT]


^^^^ MJ was clearly considered the better defender [B]AT THE TIME[/B], and Pippen's defensive capabilities have been vastly overrated by revisionist historians since... :confusedshrug:... the dpoy voting and various other sources (like the [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s][B]NBA[/B][/url]) confirm the actual sentiment at the time (that MJ was the Bulls' best defender)

the reason for the revisionist history is simple: when new fans (including media) first heard about MJ's 6 rings, they looked up his roster and didn't see the star-laden cast they expected, or great stats from a sidekick.... so they concluded that Pippen's defense offset the lack of star power or good offensive stats - but this is simply ignorance about what was actually happening at the time

the reality is that the 1st three-peat Bulls were only ranked 7th defensively, so many guys had better defensive help than MJ, including Clyde's Blazers and 4 of 6 ECF/Finals opponents[/QUOTE]

What about 94 and 95?