Wilt Chamberlain scoring highlights 1960-1968

[QUOTE=fpliii]There are a few on the RealGM PC board, where PHILA and I post regularly (ThaRegul8r, ShaqAttack, and a few others are there sometimes too). I think a lot of them are waiting for a video like the scoring skills mix you'd mentioned. I posted your new work there:

[url]http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1299207[/url]

and while I got some genuine responses, others want more complete footage. Aside from bastillion (guy at the bottom of the first page who quoted fatal9), these are all good posters. There are some others (like Doctor MJ, a global mod there) who are smart guys, and would be open to reevaluating if the tape is out there.

Clutchfans is a lost cause. Those are dedicated fans, but some aren't willing to listen to reason. bmd from here also seems to post there, and pushes the "doctored/sped up" footage schtick to plant seeds of doubt.

As I've said before, I don't have a dog in this fight, I just think Wilt (as any other player) deserves a fair shake.[/QUOTE]

I don't post there at all, but I have read some "anti-Wilt" topics there many times, and they all are the same. He was a "loser", "stats-padder", and "choker." And talk about "cherry-picking", they will use his FG%'s and TS%'s against him in arguments with KAJ and Shaq (and other's), but never mention ERA averages. NOR will then EVER bring up the fact that Chamberlain DRAMATICALLY reduced the efficiencies of his OPPOSING centers in their conversations, either.

And the bulk of them that were trashing Chamberlain here, scoffed at the eye-witness accounts of Chamberlain's athleticism, strength, and skills. Where is the VIDEO FOOTAGE, they asked.

Then, when CavsFan came aboard here, and presented very rare footage of Wilt's incredible leaping ability; and then Tex Winter's VIDEO interview in which he claimed to have witnessed Chamberlain dunking from the FT line; and then Arnold's VIDEO interview in which he claimed to have been stunned by Chamberlain's staggering feats of strength; as well as college footage of Chamberlain routinely hitting 12-15 ft shots from all angles, and with a skillset that made Shaq look like Stanley Hudson,...well, most all of the "Wilt-bashers" have scattered for the hills in shame. Only a few completely senseless morons are left. And they are considered laughingstocks here now.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]I don't post there at all, but I have read some "anti-Wilt" topics there many times, and they all are the same. He was a "loser", "stats-padder", and "choker." And talk about "cherry-picking", they will use his FG%'s and TS%'s against him in arguments with KAJ and Shaq (and other's), but never mention ERA averages. NOR will then EVER bring up the fact that Chamberlain DRAMATICALLY reduced the efficiencies of his OPPOSING centers in their conversations, either.

And the bulk of them that were trashing Chamberlain here, scoffed at the eye-witness accounts of Chamberlain's athleticism, strength, and skills. Where is the VIDEO FOOTAGE, they asked.

Then, when CavsFan came aboard here, and presented very rare footage of Wilt's incredible leaping ability; and then Tex Winter's VIDEO interview in which he claimed to have witnessed Chamberlain dunking from the FT line; and then Arnold's VIDEO interview in which he claimed to have been stunned by Chamberlain's staggering feats of strength; as well as college footage of Chamberlain routinely hitting 12-15 ft shots from all angles, and with a skillset that made Shaq look like Stanley Hudson,...well, most all of the "Wilt-bashers" have scattered for the hills in shame. [B]Only a few completely senseless morons are left[/B]. And they are considered laughingstocks here now.[/QUOTE]
:lol :applause:

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]I don't post there at all, but I have read some "anti-Wilt" topics there many times, and they all are the same. He was a "loser", "stats-padder", and "choker." And talk about "cherry-picking", they will use his FG%'s and TS%'s against him in arguments with KAJ and Shaq (and other's), but never mention ERA averages. NOR will then EVER bring up the fact that Chamberlain DRAMATICALLY reduced the efficiencies of his OPPOSING centers in their conversations, either.

And the bulk of them that were trashing Chamberlain here, scoffed at the eye-witness accounts of Chamberlain's athleticism, strength, and skills. Where is the VIDEO FOOTAGE, they asked.

Then, when CavsFan came aboard here, and presented very rare footage of Wilt's incredible leaping ability; and then Tex Winter's VIDEO interview in which he claimed to have witnessed Chamberlain dunking from the FT line; and then Arnold's VIDEO interview in which he claimed to have been stunned by Chamberlain's staggering feats of strength; as well as college footage of Chamberlain routinely hitting 12-15 ft shots from all angles, and with a skillset that made Shaq look like Stanley Hudson,...well, most all of the "Wilt-bashers" have scattered for the hills in shame. Only a few completely senseless morons are left. And they are considered laughingstocks here now.[/QUOTE]
Well, there are two camps there. One is the impact camp (using team-based relative estimated ORtg/DRtg to gauge player value on offense/defense), the latter is the video analysis camp. Some do bring up the stuff you mentioned, but they're a very small minority of the regulars.

The impact camp I don't mind so much, but I think there's some difficulty in separating team results from the individual (not enough attention is paid to context). They do tell us that Wilt improved his teams offenses and defenses when he changed teams. I think I've shared some of the stats with you. I don't think they're awful, anyway (they conclude that his impact is overrated, and his scoring didn't help teams win games).

The latter is headed by guys using fatal9's video of Wilt's post possessions, and they break down some of the flaws in his low post ball-handling/footwork (and conclude that he doesn't possess the skills to be a volume scorer/offensive anchor on a championship team in any era, the modern era specifically). Now, I think this is where CavsFTW's scoring skills video could really help, because if you read the thread to which I linked, they're all very eager to analyze new footage.

[QUOTE=Psileas]As far as I remember, Fatal9, who had been here, mostly tried to bear a "mythbuster" and "protector of the underrated" name. Started by posting stuff against Jordan's hype while not caring much about Wilt (sometimes even wrote positive things about him), but gradually moved to trying to bust similar stories about Wilt and became increasingly hostile towards him, [B]while always being much keener on Kareem/Hakeem[/B], who had been considered the "underrated" big men.
I'm not a RealGM poster, but a few ones are even worse. They, for example, have fallen so pathologically in love with the season-by-season WS margins, SRS margins, etc, that they'll get to conclusions like Wilt being a bad defender in 1969, Wilt having little offensive impact in some of his highest scoring seasons and so on.
What's comical in such situations is that, in case Wilt's teams seem to underperform, Wilt's game is the only one which is scrutinized as consistently changing and is considered mostly responsible for the negative turn, while the other players' value and impact somehow remain unchanged. If Wilt's teams play great, then it becomes a different story...
Oh, and try to disagree. Best case, you'll be called out as ignorant. Worst case, I guess, you may even get banned if you don't shut up after a while.

And on Wilt having 24 inches of vert, here's a 2008 topic here:
[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=98884[/url][/QUOTE]

And yet, NOT ONE of these "Wilt-bashers" has ever explained how is it, that a PEAK Kareem played FOUR years IN the "Wilt-era", and faced several of the SAME centers that a prime Chamberlain had played against, and was NOWHERE NEAR as dominant against them, as Chamberlain had been. And most of them were closer to their primes when they faced Wilt, than when they battled Kareem.

To a man... Jim Fox, Connie Dierking, Darrall Imhoff, Willis Reed, Nate Thurmond, and Walt Bellamy...

A prime Chamberlain just ANNIHILATED those guys with FAR more domination that a prime Kareem did. Not even CLOSE. A prime Wilt's BAD games against those guys were usually better than what a prime Kareem could put on them, and again, most were on the decline by the time Kareem was facing them.

Oh, and KAJ couldn't touch the vast majority of Wilt's records, either. He was nowhere near the scorer, rebounder, passer, defender, or shot-blocker that Wilt was.



They have NO case...

[QUOTE=fpliii]Well, there are two camps there. One is the impact camp (using team-based relative estimated ORtg/DRtg to gauge player value on offense/defense), the latter is the video analysis camp. Some do bring up the stuff you mentioned, but they're a very small minority of the regulars.

The impact camp I don't mind so much, but I think there's some difficulty in separating team results from the individual (not enough attention is paid to context). They do tell us that Wilt improved his teams offenses and defenses when he changed teams. I think I've shared some of the stats with you. I don't think they're awful, anyway (they conclude that his impact is overrated, and his scoring didn't help teams win games).

The latter is headed by guys [B]using fatal9's video of Wilt's post possessions, and they break down some of the flaws in his low post ball-handling/footwork[/B] (and conclude that he doesn't possess the skills to be a volume scorer/offensive anchor on a championship team in any era, the modern era specifically). Now, I think this is where CavsFTW's scoring skills video could really help, because if you read the thread to which I linked, they're all very eager to analyze new footage.[/QUOTE]

I watched that ridiculous video. First of all, he took the few near full games we have of Wilt (and none of those were anywhere near Wilt's best games), and in one, in which Chamberlain's knees were killing him...and edited them to just show his POOR shots. Hell, he even had the audacity to show Chamberlain taking a horrible shot from near the sidelines...but without context...the 24 second clock had expired!

He didn't show Wilt's best moves or shots in that footage, and even then, Chamberlain made the majority of those shots. Again...talk about "cherry-picking." He went off the deep end years ago...

[QUOTE=fpliii]Well, there are two camps there. One is the impact camp (using team-based relative estimated ORtg/DRtg to gauge player value on offense/defense), the latter is the video analysis camp. Some do bring up the stuff you mentioned, but they're a very small minority of the regulars.

The impact camp I don't mind so much, but I think there's some difficulty in separating team results from the individual (not enough attention is paid to context). They do tell us that Wilt improved his teams offenses and defenses when he changed teams. I think I've shared some of the stats with you. I don't think they're awful, anyway ([B]they conclude that his impact is overrated, and his scoring didn't help teams win games[/B]).

The latter is headed by guys using fatal9's video of Wilt's post possessions, and they break down some of the flaws in his low post ball-handling/footwork (and conclude that he doesn't possess the skills to be a volume scorer/offensive anchor on a championship team in any era, the modern era specifically). Now, I think this is where CavsFTW's scoring skills video could really help, because if you read the thread to which I linked, they're all very eager to analyze new footage.[/QUOTE]

I trashed that theory a page ago...

[QUOTE]Yep...Chamberlain had very little impact on his teams.

In his rookie season, he took what had been a last-place team to a 49-26 record, to a game six, two point loss, against a heavily-favored Celtic team, in a series in which he badly injured his hand, and because of it, his team lost the next game, 120-90.

In his 61-62 season, he took that same last-place roster, which was now older and worse, to a game seven, two point loss against an even more dominant Celtic team...in a post-season in which his teammates collectively shot .354 from the field.

HE was blamed for his 62-63 Warrior team going 31-49, in a season in which SF lost 35 games by single digits. Included was a 1-8 record against the Celtics, which fielded a roster of NINE HOFers, and Wilt kept his roster in almost all of those games (and outscored Russell, per game, 38-14 ppg in the process.)

How bad was that roster? The very next season his new coach, Alex Hannum, conducted a pre-season scrimmage, sans Wilt, with the veterans playing against draft picks and scrubs...and guess which team won? Hannum was absolutely horrified. In his own words, those Warrior players had totally forgotten how to play basketball. Oh, and then Wilt single-handedly took that same pathetic cast of clowns roster to a 48-32 record, and a trip to the Finals. And I mean single-handedly. It took his 39 ppg, 23 rpg, .559 WDF's series to beat a Hawks team that was better, from players 2-6, in seven games. Then, while they lost to the overwhelmingly favored Celtics (and their EIGHT HOFers) in the Finals, 4-1, the last two games came down to the wire, in a series in which Chamberlain trashed Russell.

Wilt was sick for much of the first half of the 64-65 season, and his team's doctor mis-diagnosed his condition as a heart problem. With Chamberlain at less than 100%, and virtually no surrounding talent, they fell to 10-27. The warriors panicked and traded Wilt to Philly at the mid-way point in the season, for three players.

Wilt took a team that had gone 34-46 the year before, and missed the playoffs (and minus three players now) to a 40-40 record. Not bad. BUT, in the post-season, he single-handedly carried them past a 48-32 Royals team in the first round, and then to a game seven, one point defeat to a 62-18 Celtics team that was at the peak of their dynasty. And in that series, he administered the most one-sided beatdown of a another GOAT candidate in NBA history.

He would then lead the Sixers to the best record in the league in his next three years in Philly, including a dominating title in '67, on a team that smashed all kinds of records at the time.

Meanwhile, the 64-65 Warriors, went 7-36 without Wilt. They moved Thurmond to center, where he would become a HOFer. They then drafted Rick Barry, who would become a HOFer. The result? 35-45. Think about that. TWO HOFers replacing Wilt, and they could only go 35-45.

But it gets better. In the Warriors' 66-67 season, they added Jeff Mullins, Fred Hetzel, and Clyde Lee. Thurmond had his greatest season ever, and Rick Barry led the NBA in scoring at 35.6 ppg. The result? A 44-37 record, and were blown out by Wilt's Sixers in the Finals. Think about this. In Wilt's 63-64 season, his second best player was Tom Meschery, who averaged 13 ppg. That team went 48-32. On the 66-67 Warriors, Meschery averaged 11 ppg, and was SF's SEVENTH best player...and they only went 44-37, and couldn't even equal Wilt's 63-64 season.

Chamberlain basically forced a trade before the start of the 68-69 season. His 67-68 Sixers had gone 62-20, but were decimated by injuries in the post-season, and lost a close game seven to Boston in the EDF's. He was "traded" to LA, for three players, who collectively had averaged 29 ppg and 15 rpg in '67-68. In fact, Clark and Imhoff would go on to combine for a 36-20 .510 series in the first round against a 48-34 Celtic team...and they were demolished, 4-1. Contrary to popular myth, that was a HUGE drop. Oh, and the Sixers would continue to slide, and by Wilt's last season in the league, they went 9-73.

Meanwhile, Chamberlain's 68-69 Lakers "only" improved from a 52-30 record, to a 55-27 record (their best ever record in LA at the time BTW.) However, Chamberlain had to not only replace Imhoff and Clark's 29-15 per game averages, but the Lakers also lost Gail Goodrich and his 14 ppg from 67-68 in the expansion draft. So, Wilt basically replaced 42 ppg and 18 rpg. And even with an incompetent coach, they were one play away from easily beating Boston in the Finals, 4-1. They lost game seven, by two points, with Chamberlain relegated to the bench in the last five minutes by the stubborn and witless Van Breda Kolf, who was basically fired right after the game.

In his five seasons in LA, the Lakers went to FOUR Finals, losing two in game seven's. They won a dominating title in 71-72, on a team that smashed all kinds of records (at the time...including a 33 game winning streak.) They won 69 and 60 games in his last two seasons, and went to the Finals in both (winning their first-ever title in LA in 71-72.) Oh, and along the way, they destroyed his old Warrior team twice in the post-season.

Chamberlain "retired" after his 72-73 season, and the Lakers immediately plummetted to a 47-35 record, and were blown away in the first round of the playoffs. In their next season, the fell to 30-52. They then traded for KAJ, and could only go 40-42. They were nothing but early round playoff cannon-fodder the rest of the decade. It wasn't until MAGIC arrived in 79-80, that they returned to where Chamberlain had left them.

But, yes, Wilt had no impact on his teams...[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]If I'm not mistaken fatal9 and the majority of his type disappeared almost instantly after they saw your clip of Wilt Chamberlain going to the top of the backboard to block a shot in a game. vanished into thin air

except the ubiquitous molldywad - he's still around here somewhere. Look in the basement corners.[/quote]

they were 100% on the money. like somebody said, you could create a kwame brown highlight mix making him look like an allstar. what a joke.

the bottom line is Wilt was a playoff choker who "dominated" the league in its infancy.

Shaq is waaaaaaay better than Wilt. hakeem as well.... CHECK THE WEAK AS he was in the NBA's HIGHEST SCORING ERA...... no defense..... AT ALL.... wilt could get 30.1 ppg vs nobodies in the reg. season..... but 22.5 ppg in the playoff when good teams are left? :oldlol: the guy's legend, no matter what heavily edited video OP posts, is a myth.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]they were 100% on the money. like somebody said, you could create a kwame brown highlight mix making him look like an allstar. what a joke.

the bottom line is Wilt was a playoff choker who "dominated" the league in its infancy.

Shaq is waaaaaaay better than Wilt. hakeem as well.... CHECK THE WEAK AS he was in the NBA's HIGHEST SCORING ERA...... no defense..... AT ALL.... wilt could get 30.1 ppg vs nobodies in the reg. season..... but 22.5 ppg in the playoff when good teams are left? :oldlol: the guy's legend, no matter what heavily edited video OP posts, is a myth.[/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/unsolved-history-custer.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Great work as always CavFTW!!! [B]I think the full repertoire is captured here[/B]. All we need to experience now is the persistence to the hoop and game continuity.[/QUOTE]

shaq is better than wilt..so is kareem...so was magic..these guys had more impact on the game. FYI, shaqs title teams were 23-26 without him in the 49 games he missed. 13-13 for lakers from 00-02 without shaq 10-13 for heat in 06 without shaq these are the facts.

MDE = shaq

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]shaq is better than wilt..so is kareem...so was magic..these guys had more impact on the game. FYI, shaqs title teams were 23-26 without him in the 49 games he missed. 13-13 for lakers from 00-02 without shaq 10-13 for heat in 06 without shaq these are the facts.

MDE = shaq[/QUOTE]

[url]http://books.google.com/books/about/Basketball_For_Dummies.html?id=gL9TJK--5fgC[/url]

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]shaq is better than wilt..so is kareem...so was magic..these guys had more impact on the game. FYI, shaqs title teams were 23-26 without him in the 49 games he missed. 13-13 for lakers from 00-02 without shaq 10-13 for heat in 06 without shaq these are the facts.

[B]MDE = shaq[/B][/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=curryed01&p2=onealsh01[/url]

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS][url]http://books.google.com/books/about/Basketball_For_Dummies.html?id=gL9TJK--5fgC[/url][/QUOTE]

lmao!!... not gonna happen…..im a bball genius….im a stat genius….im a math genius…nuff said.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]lmao!!... not gonna happen

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS][url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=curryed01&p2=onealsh01[/url][/QUOTE]

wilt was a renowned playoff choker. an incontestable fact……documented historical fact…..a fact that will never change

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]wilt was a renowned playoff choker. and they are incontestable facts