Larry Bird vs. Magic Johnson - Complete Career Head-to-Head Stats

[QUOTE=dankok8]I agree the teammate argument is weak. Bird's teams certainly had a lot more defensive talent than Magic's so it evens out.

The conference argument holds water though. Magic could cruise through the playoffs busting weak teams while Bird had to fight for his life just to make the finals. His Celtics teams were often bruised and injured facing the Lakers.

If you think Magic > Bird from '84 to '86 period that's a big problem though. Bird was a monster in those 3 consecutive postseasons. He had a slight drop in the '85 Finals because of injury but overall it's no contest. Bird won 3 straight MVP's as well.[/QUOTE]

Even if I were to concede '84 thru '86, Magic was still the better player the rest of their careers.

But just for the record, here were Magic's stats (which, of course, don't come close to true impact)...

83-84: 17.6 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 13.1 apg, .565 FG%, .810 FT%, .628 TS%
84-85: 18.3 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 12.6 apg, .561 FG%, .843 FT%, .637 TS%
85-86: 18.8 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 12.6 apg, .526 FG%, .871 FT%, .610 TS%

Post-season:

83-84: 18.2 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 13.5 apg, .551 FG%, .800 FT%, .601 TS%
84-85: 17.5 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 15.2 apg, .513 FG%, .847 FT%, .599 TS%
85-86: 21.6 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 15.1 apg, .537 FG%, .766 FT%, .599 TS%

And I would argue that he had better seasons, and post-seasons, in his career, as well.

As a sidenote, he would have had a monster year in 80-81 had he not been injured.

21.6 ppg, 8.6 rpg, 8.6 apg (and not even the fulltime PG, either), .532 FG%, .760 FT%, and a .582 TS% (and he would have led the league in spg at 3.4.)

[QUOTE]However Magic >> Bird is revisionist history. As is this notion that Magic was clearly better than Kareem before 86-87. Not the case... I love Magic but I don't let my personal bias come in the way. You don't realize it most likely but you cherry-pick stats that suit you and ignore other data that doesn't not further your point. For example let's talk about Bird's '81 series vs. Philly, numerous series vs. the Bucks (except '83), '84 and '86 Finals, '88 series vs. Atlanta. Guess they never happened huh?[/QUOTE]

Again, including the post-season, and Magic was better than Bird from '80 thru '83 (and I will give you Bird's disgraceful Finals in '81.)

And, including the post-season, Magic was better in '85. No question.

So, Bird was better, using FULL seasons, in '81 (just barely), '84 (just barely), and '86 (solidly.) Magic routs him in every other season.

KAJ was still a great offensive player up until '85-86. After that he was role player, and Magic would have won rings in both '87 and '88 without him. But, Magic COULD have been a dominant scorer from '80 thru '86 had been tasked with it. There are just too many games which clearly show that capability, including a clinching game six, without KAJ, of 42 points, in his ROOKIE season.

And, again, Magic outvoted KAJ in the MVP balloting in their last EIGHT seasons together. And, because of KAJ, it cost Magic in the MVP voting overall throughout the 80's. But everyone in the NBA, AND the Laker organization KNEW that Magic was clearly the Lakers best player. Why? Because he made EVERY player on those team's better.

Sorry, but KAJ road Magic's coat-tails to FIVE NBA titles, with only '80 as a legitimate claim to a "co-title." Even his '85 Finals was overshadowed by Magic's PLAYOFF dominance that season. And it was no coincidence that when Magic arrived, LA immediately became a champion, and were still 60+ winners after Kareem retired, but, when Magic retired, LA immediately dropped to seasons of 43-39 and 39-43.

Magic would have been winning titles in the 80's without Kareem. But there is simply no way KAJ would have won any without Magic.

Magic was 3 years younger than Bird and outplayed Peak Bird in two out of 3 finals.

Go ahead and post the 3 finals averages...Magic blows him out of the water.

[QUOTE=eliteballer]Magic was 3 years younger than Bird and outplayed Peak Bird in two out of 3 finals.

Go ahead and post the 3 finals averages...Magic blows him out of the water.[/QUOTE]

No need. In the post-season Magic had higher peaks, longer peaks, didn't choke nearly as often, had more team success, outplayed him H2H, and was clearly better in nine of those 12 post-seasons.

[QUOTE=navy]Why do [B]white people[/B] say Bird was better than Magic?[/QUOTE]




fixed.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]No need. In the post-season Magic had higher peaks, longer peaks, didn't choke nearly as often, had more team success, outplayed him H2H, and was clearly better in nine of those 12 post-seasons.[/QUOTE]

Sorry man, not sure how old you are, but I watched it all. And what you're saying sounds pretty good on paper, but doesn't pass the eye test.

Bird was definitely considered the better player before '86. I remember that clearly. For the thousandth time, Bird was going up against Michael Cooper, Bobby Jones, and the most intimidating playoff defense of all time with long rangy forwards in the bad boys Pistons, Rodman, etc..
You can't go with head to head stats here, because of THAT alone, and because it's easier to pass over small guards and rack up assists than it is to score in these series.
Think of yourself going into a gym, and the guy guarding you is your D3 little brother. You're gonna put up numbers. Now they switch up and put a D1 guy whose just as big as you, quick, and has one sole purpose of stopping you, and he looks like Michael Cooper. You ain't gonna put up numbers.

And if you think the East wasn't tougher than the West back then, you're high.
Magic's Lakers always cruised through high scoring series to rack up stats and be fresher for the finals. Always.
I always thought Magic had the much better supporting cast too. Jabbar, Worthy, and much more athletic, longer scorers and defenders.
If you put Bird with Jabbar and Worthy and Cooper and Scott and Wilkes, etc.,forget it they would have kicked the Celtics a**. You may not think that, I know that.

All said I have no agenda, I'll take Magic. But it is barely.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]
Even if I were to concede '84 thru '86, Magic was still the better player the rest of their careers.

But just for the record, here were Magic's stats (which, of course, don't come close to true impact)...

83-84: 17.6 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 13.1 apg, .565 FG%, .810 FT%, .628 TS%
84-85: 18.3 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 12.6 apg, .561 FG%, .843 FT%, .637 TS%
85-86: 18.8 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 12.6 apg, .526 FG%, .871 FT%, .610 TS%

Post-season:

83-84: 18.2 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 13.5 apg, .551 FG%, .800 FT%, .601 TS%
84-85: 17.5 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 15.2 apg, .513 FG%, .847 FT%, .599 TS%
85-86: 21.6 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 15.1 apg, .537 FG%, .766 FT%, .599 TS%

And I would argue that he had better seasons, and post-seasons, in his career, as well.

As a sidenote, he would have had a monster year in 80-81 had he not been injured.

21.6 ppg, 8.6 rpg, 8.6 apg (and not even the fulltime PG, either), .532 FG%, .760 FT%, and a .582 TS% (and he would have led the league in spg at 3.4.)[/QUOTE]

Magic had nice stats and good impact on top of that but Bird did a lot outside of stats as well.

[QUOTE]Again, including the post-season, and Magic was better than Bird from '80 thru '83 (and I will give you Bird's disgraceful Finals in '81.)

And, including the post-season, Magic was better in '85. No question.

So, Bird was better, using FULL seasons, in '81 (just barely), '84 (just barely), and '86 (solidly.) Magic routs him in every other season.

KAJ was still a great offensive player up until '85-86. After that he was role player, and Magic would have won rings in both '87 and '88 without him. But, Magic COULD have been a dominant scorer from '80 thru '86 had been tasked with it. There are just too many games which clearly show that capability, including a clinching game six, without KAJ, of 42 points, in his ROOKIE season.

And, again, Magic outvoted KAJ in the MVP balloting in their last EIGHT seasons together. And, because of KAJ, it cost Magic in the MVP voting overall throughout the 80's. But everyone in the NBA, AND the Laker organization KNEW that Magic was clearly the Lakers best player. Why? Because he made EVERY player on those team's better.

Sorry, but KAJ road Magic's coat-tails to FIVE NBA titles, with only '80 as a legitimate claim to a "co-title." Even his '85 Finals was overshadowed by Magic's PLAYOFF dominance that season. And it was no coincidence that when Magic arrived, LA immediately became a champion, and were still 60+ winners after Kareem retired, but, when Magic retired, LA immediately dropped to seasons of 43-39 and 39-43.

Magic would have been winning titles in the 80's without Kareem. But there is simply no way KAJ would have won any without Magic.
[/QUOTE]

You give way too much weight to Game 6 of the '80 Finals. It's just one game bro! It doesn't make him anywhere near as good as Kareem (or Bird) in that season.

And seriously you should concede the '84 to '86 period. Bird won 3 straight MVP's, easily outplayed Magic in the '84 Finals, and was slightly outplayed in the '85 Finals playing through injury. In the '85 postseason until Game 4 of the ECF when he got injured, Bird averaged 29/9/7 on 49% shooting. You don't like to rip Wilt when he's injured but you sure have no problem doing so to Bird. Be objective.

[B]And I like your double standards. Magic > Kareem in 1980 because of one spectacular game in the finals but Magic > Kareem in 1985 because he was better in the regular season. [/B]

Truth is Kareem was easily better than Magic in 1980 (everyone will tell you that...) and they were 1a/1b in 1985 with neither having a clear edge.

And as a minor point. Kareem wasn't a role player in '87. He put up 21/7 in the finals and had a monster closeout Game 6. Magic was EASILY BETTER than Jabbar that whole year but Kareem was an all-star C. I honestly don't think LA would have won without him. In '88 they probably could...

[QUOTE=dankok8]What does that prove? That Kareem was a dick that he was upset about the contract situation? I don't recall ever reading that he threatened to leave or anything like that. [/quote]
We were discussing whose team was it? If the franchise gave the key to Magic, if Kareem got very upset about them giving him the keys then its obvious that Kareem knows, does it really matter what the press thinks? To pretend like Pat Riley didn't know that his main decision maker and coach on the floor didn't know managements dynamics is a bit crazy. Do you really think that the franchise and coach didn't know whose team it was? Magic handled Kareem with kid gloves on.

[quote]
And by the way he was more than happy to give Magic the green light in the 86-87 season and take a step back. Kareem was a pretty freaking unselfish player. [/quote]
Not if you are comparing him to Magic. If Magic asserted himself and his power, he could have gotten rid of the guy that stood in the way of him scoring.

[quote]
Barry's title was a fluke. Which other great player led a clearly underdog team to a title? Dirk in 2011? So about twice in almost 60 years since the merger... Jordan, Magic, Bird, Wilt etc. never did it either. [/quote]
There were no consistent winners after '74. That's when stuff like that happens. Dallas was a lot like the Pistons in that they were a good team - best three point shooting team in the playoffs, best SF stand on defense ever, best SG defensive stand ever in the playoffs ever as well. There were other underdogs that won as well. What was rare with Barry was one offensive player doing that type of damage.

[quote]
Oscar in '71 was WAY REMOVED from his peak years. He was very good still but not on that level. And then in '72 WCF vs. LA and '74 Finals vs. Boston he was a shell of himself.
[/quote]
In '74 he wasn't himself but in 72 he is still one of the smartest players around and a great player. But Kareem had an unbelievable season that year and it was his most complete great year in every way.

[quote]
[B]Kareem's 70-73[/B] stretch can go up against any player statistically and impact-wise. His playoff performances in his prime and overall resume can also stack up to anybody. [/quote]
While I think his defense was better than Shaq's his impact wasn't on par as Shaq's '00 - '02. There was nothing left to be desired those years from Shaq and perhaps was the biggest earthquake splash we've seen. But even Shaq wasn't as dominant as Jordan's top three years. If you go performance wise Wilt's top three years were better too. If you go team wise Magic from '87 thru '89 would be better as no team ever looked better. And then Bird from '84-'86.
[quote]
Kareem is definitely a Tier 1 player with a strong case for GOAT. I'm not saying he is GOAT but he's in the discussion along with Jordan and Russell IMO. Quite honestly I refuse to tank those 3 in any order. It's so difficult and they reach proved their GOAT status differently.
[/quote]
I think Kareem has a case. But Jordan dominated a group of HOF centers, even one that was more dominant than Kareem, while Kareem had trouble with the few great ones (Mac and Moses) that came up in his prime. Magic was unquestionably the greatest winner in the most competitive era.


[quote]
Elvin Hayes had Wes Unseld and Bob Dandridge in their absolute primes and a strong well-rounded cast. Sikma in Seattle had the best backcourt in the league. Ever heard of Gus Williams, Dennis Johnson, and "Downtown" Freddie Brown. They combined for 60+ ppg against Kareem's Lakers in the '78 and '79 playoffs and completely obliterated the LA backcourt. [/quote]
You know full well I talked about Gus Williams and that DJ was one of the best clutch shooters in the 80's. When Magic came aboard that same Supersonic team was handed their heads. Must be that the game was more about the guards than it was about the center huh?
[quote]
Sure that's true but you're quite alone in any assertion that Magic was a good let alone great defender. [/quote]
A player with a great affect on three player's ability to make shots in an elimination game. As great a defensive affect as any one player in recent memory. This is with a super hot Bird and one of the most clutch players in the game missing at a 70% clip. If you don't call it defense, then give Magic his own category called control of game damage. It totally eliminated Bird
s, Ainge's and DJ's capacity to be effective.

[quote]
Magic had impact but in '85 he wasn't clearly better than Kareem. In the Finals Kareem was definitely better. [/quote]

Sorry but McHale pretty much cancelled out Kareem. He outrebounded him, shot pretty much the same percentage and outscored him. And Kareem was guarding him. Magic totally killed Boston on the run. He ran them to death. You rarely see a player ever average 14 assist per game on a great defensive team. All of the Laker's wins were by more than 10 points (game 2 ended up closer than what the game was ended) which is because Magic found the holes in the defense and gets all the easy baskets on the break. Worthy's high scoring is also very indicative of Magic's control. All of Magic's primary targets shot incredibly well against a top defensive team. You can go by who had the biggest numbers thing if you want to misunderstand the game. Those who know better, know that the game is won in how it is played.
[quote]
A team led by prime Kareem would be way better on defense and on the boards. Honestly they probably would cream Magic's team assuming equal talent. So would Wilt's, Shaq's, and Hakeem's teams. Big men have more impact.[/QUOTE]
In the '80 Magic is very close to outrebounding Kareem himself - were did you get that from? You don't know. During Kareem's watch the center position died down significantly. After Wilt left in 73 Kareem didn't win won ring without Magic or the seven years before Magic. Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Ewing did not win a ring on prime Jordan's or Magic's healthy watch and they had about 30 chances between them. Shaq had better teammates than any contemporary, and Kobe still has more rings than him. If you take out the Kareem/Magic equation and Kobe/Shaq you only have two years of center position impact and those two years were loaned out by the GOAT.

Bird and Magic changed the game and made it so that if you are a smart skilled player (Kobe, Duncan, Lebron) you can have at least equal impact. Jordan proved to be GOAT. After Kareem's arrival, the game was shortly thereafter decentralized. Bird and Magic were the icing on the cake.

[QUOTE=BIZARRO]Sorry man, not sure how old you are, but I watched it all. And what you're saying sounds pretty good on paper, but doesn't pass the eye test.

Bird was definitely considered the better player before '86. I remember that clearly. For the thousandth time, Bird was going up against Michael Cooper, Bobby Jones, and the most intimidating playoff defense of all time with long rangy forwards in the bad boys Pistons, Rodman, etc..
You can't go with head to head stats here, because of THAT alone, and because it's easier to pass over small guards and rack up assists than it is to score in these series.
Think of yourself going into a gym, and the guy guarding you is your D3 little brother. You're gonna put up numbers. Now they switch up and put a D1 guy whose just as big as you, quick, and has one sole purpose of stopping you, and he looks like Michael Cooper. You ain't gonna put up numbers.

And if you think the East wasn't tougher than the West back then, you're high.
Magic's Lakers always cruised through high scoring series to rack up stats and be fresher for the finals. Always.
I always thought Magic had the much better supporting cast too. Jabbar, Worthy, and much more athletic, longer scorers and defenders.
If you put Bird with Jabbar and Worthy and Cooper and Scott and Wilkes, etc.,forget it they would have kicked the Celtics a**. You may not think that, I know that.

All said I have no agenda, I'll take Magic. But it is barely.[/QUOTE]

I saw the vast majority of the Bird-Magic, Celtics-Lakers H2H's (as well as the entire NBA in the 80's.)

And I'm sorry, but Bird was nowhere the consensus better player from '80 thru '83. He edged Magic in the MVP voting, but Magic was hurt by two things, one, KAJ robbing votes from him; and two, he was blamed for the Westhead firing (which, as I pointed out, was imminent long before his flare up.) And, if you include the post-seasons, well, Magic ran away with being the best player in those four years.

Bird did win three straight MVPs, and while I would acknowledge that he deserved them, Magic's IMPACT was nearly equal. And, again, in the '85 post-season, Magic was definitely, and I mean definitely, the better player. Bird was only the FIFTH best player in that series, and McHale clearly was Boston's best player.

Of course, from '87 on Magic pulled away. Bird had his best regular season in '88, but then, as usual, gagged in the post-season. Meanwhile, Magic torched that same Piston team that had limited Bird. In fact, Magic was robbed in the MVP voting in that Finals, by Worthy.

It was not close. Not in terms of careers. I wouldn't even claim that a peak Bird was better than a peak Magic. Overall, and by a solid margin...MAGIC.

[QUOTE]And I like your double standards. Magic > Kareem in 1980 because of one spectacular game in the finals but Magic > Kareem in 1985 because he was better in the regular season. [/QUOTE]

Magic's 1980 Finals' numbers:

21.5 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 8.7 apg (and SHARING the PG with Nixon), .573 FG%, and an .875 FT%.

And, he PLAYED in every game. I would argue that had Kareem not been on that team, that Magic would have been putting up 30+ point games in every game. Not saying that they would have won the series without KAJ, but Magic did prove that he could win a key game without him...and with a greater Finals game than Kareem EVER had in his 20 year career.

As for '85. KAJ deserved the FMVP. Magic was CLEARLY the Lakers PLAYOFF MVP.

[B]Damn, jlauber (with his alt too) getting owned time and time again, yet continue to post long-ass, ignorant essays :facepalm Sad while funny.[/B]

[QUOTE=SHAQisGOAT][B]Damn, jlauber (with his alt too) getting owned time and time again, yet continue to post long-ass, ignorant essays :facepalm Sad while funny.[/B][/QUOTE]

Who is this "alt", and who is "owning me?"

jlauber? He is dead according to your alt, Millwad.

And have you read any of his posts here lately?

Goota love it. When someone agrees with me, they have to be an "alt."

You need to get find another hobby. Something that doesn't require any knowledge.

[QUOTE=BIZARRO]Sorry man, not sure how old you are, but I watched it all. And what you're saying sounds pretty good on paper, but doesn't pass the eye test.

Bird was definitely considered the better player before '86. I remember that clearly. For the thousandth time, Bird was going up against Michael Cooper, Bobby Jones, and the most intimidating playoff defense of all time with long rangy forwards in the bad boys Pistons, Rodman, etc..
You can't go with head to head stats here, because of THAT alone, and because it's easier to pass over small guards and rack up assists than it is to score in these series.
Think of yourself going into a gym, and the guy guarding you is your D3 little brother. You're gonna put up numbers. Now they switch up and put a D1 guy whose just as big as you, quick, and has one sole purpose of stopping you, and he looks like Michael Cooper. You ain't gonna put up numbers.

And if you think the East wasn't tougher than the West back then, you're high.
Magic's Lakers always cruised through high scoring series to rack up stats and be fresher for the finals. Always.
I always thought Magic had the much better supporting cast too. Jabbar, Worthy, and much more athletic, longer scorers and defenders.
If you put Bird with Jabbar and Worthy and Cooper and Scott and Wilkes, etc.,forget it they would have kicked the Celtics a**. You may not think that, I know that.

All said I have no agenda, I'll take Magic. But it is barely.[/QUOTE]

the Bird / Magic discussion deserves this kind of comment...finally something worthy to read on ISH.
i just read 5 pages of agendas, people using stupid "arguments", comparing numbers :face palm please let that to the kids.

[QUOTE=SHAQisGOAT][B]Damn, jlauber (with his alt too) getting owned time and time again, yet continue to post long-ass, ignorant essays :facepalm Sad while funny.[/B][/QUOTE]

Getting "owned?"

I don't see too many folks here claiming that Bird was greater than Magic. "Most people..."

BTW, all I have read from your research is EXCUSES for Bird's POOR play in the MAJORITY of his post-seasons. Magic had excuses too, (like '81), but overall, didn't need ANY.