US state department and Pentagon confirm Russia is firing on Ukraine

[QUOTE=Godzuki]that was Soviet Union era...its just Russia and they are still trying to get back to where they were. After the Soviet collapse Russia went through a lot of problems and instability, and i even think they lost a lot of their weapons/arms to rogue dealers altho i'm sure they still have huge stockpiles of it and not saying they aren't a big threat still.[/quote]They only need to connect with one to make Obama the worst President of all time.

[QUOTE]If you're referring to me i'm not saying we go to war with them but you have to at least make the threat you're willing, otherwise he and others are extremely abusive of our passiveness or playing chicken knowing we're flinching at first threat of collision. And thats basically what Putin is doing...he's actually stepped up his assaults on Ukraine, even been more open it seems with direct attacks from Russia now from what it sounds like, and so shortly after the Malaysian crash where the world reprimanded him....and he's just laughing in everyones faces while the world blusters.[/QUOTE]Bluff too much and eventually you will get called. Rather than playing chicken with a nuclear opponent we need to step back and realize that conflicts in far away countries that don't involve us are a bad idea. The Ukraine may get swallowed up by Russia. I concede, that's too bad. But are we going to step in with force every time two other countries fight? Are we just going to keep on spending the lives of our soldiers and piling on debt going it alone into foreign nations? We really can't afford this kind of activity. We don't rule the world and never have, time to accept that reality.

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green]They only need to connect with one to make Obama the worst President of all time.

Bluff too much and eventually you will get called. Rather than playing chicken with a nuclear opponent we need to step back and realize that conflicts in far away countries that don't involve us are a bad idea. The Ukraine may get swallowed up by Russia. I concede, that's too bad. But are we going to step in with force every time two other countries fight? Are we just going to keep on spending the lives of our soldiers and piling on debt going it alone into foreign nations? We really can't afford this kind of activity. We don't rule the world and never have, time to accept that reality.[/QUOTE]

yeah people are retarded with the way they criticize Obama, but thats pretty much every Republican, especially the die hards. the whole internet is littered with Obama hate from every Republican and most of it is extremely hypocritical.

i didn't think u guys were taking some people here seriously tho, especially where its more like them trolling at this point than making legit points.

i think we have to be involved in stuff, otherwise the world will catch up and pass us by or become so rotten and messed up, they'll all be flocking to us/europe....and all of that stuff does have a affect on our economy. altho i'm not saying we shouldn't back away some to stuff, i think our politicians/us have learned some lessons we shouldn't be getting involved in everything.

[QUOTE=KevinNYC]OK Kids, time for bed. We'll leave the pieces where they are and you can finish up tomorrow after school.

[IMG]http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2011/11/22/risk_custom-ee936530180397e4de9d58b710c2edbe82948bec-s6-c30.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Another no substance post from Kevin. :facepalm

[QUOTE=JohnFreeman]Amerifats think they can take on Russia :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

California alone has a larger economy than Russia. If it came to blows, the US would stomp their guts out without breaking a sweat. It isn't worth it though.

LOL @ Putin... this guy :lol

[B]'He's a very arrogant person to deal with'

Clinton also shared her thoughts on her interactions with Putin during her stint as Obama's secretary of state.


"He's very tough. He's a very arrogant person to deal with, which I think is a combination of this vision of Russia and some fundamental insecurity, because when you are dealing with him, he often acts as though he could care less," Clinton said.

"...There was a G20 summit in Los Cabos (Mexico, in 2012) and our President had a meeting scheduled. He kept President Obama waiting 40 minutes before he showed up. He sat down. It was a very small meeting on both sides of the table. We, at the time, were very hopeful -- not realistically so, but idealistically so -- that we could get more cooperation from Russia to slow down (Bashar) al-Assad and what he was doing in Syria," she said. "Putin could not have looked more bored, more discomfited, and never apologized for being late."

"So then, of course, he wanted a summit in Russia. He wanted to play the host. And my advice to the president was don't go chasing after him. We're not sure of what his real intent is."[/B]

Putin is such an asshole. He's pretty damn alpha doe can't lie

[QUOTE=Godzuki][B]i want us to fukk up the Separatists...at the least arm the Ukrainians against the Separatists. I want us to call Putin's playing 2 sides.[/B]

maybe even send in special forces at night or some type of attack on the Separatists. I want us to clearly stand with Ukraine...against the Separatists.

Ukraine chose the west over joiniing Russia...and we aren't even backing them after all of this BS...[/QUOTE]
Thats a bad idea imo.
Russians and ukrainians care far more about this situation than anyone else.

It would just give putin a reason to invade. We dont/shouldnt care enough about ukraine to fight russia. We should be trying to deescalate this situation. Ukraine needs to either beat the pro russian separatists by themselves, or accept that the eastern part of their country will not be under their actual control.

It would be different if russia attacked a nato ally like estonia, because that would be a pre-existing treaty obligation and if not answered it would throw into doubt all of america's treaty obligations, which could cause huge problems in eastern europe and in asia.

[QUOTE=Graviton]So will there be sanctions against Israel too? Why isn't US pressuring them?

It's funny when these conflicts involve Russia or a Muslim nation, US is quick to judge and the media immediately paints them as the bad guys. But if it's Israel doing the same thing, they never say or do anything. [B]At the end of the day our government only cares about the shift of power and their own interests[/B], the people getting hurt and nations collapsing is irrelevant.[/QUOTE]
as any government should.
Also we are actively supporting israel in the UN and other international organizations. We also helped them to develop their Iron dome defense system, and their air force utilizes american technology.

[QUOTE=Graviton]It all started from those 3 Israeli boys being killed, slowly the conflict grows and it turns into all out war.

I thought you were up to date on the latest news, [URL="http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-25/15-killed-in-israeli-shelling-of-gaza-school/5622832"]Israel bombed a school shelter and killed 15 people, mostly kids. [/URL]They said Hamas militants hide in such places and rockets may have been hidden there. But the UN reporters after investigating the site said no rocket parts, ammunition or any weapons were found.

Now Russia reportedly is firing artillery shells at Ukraine, do you see the analogy now? If they hit a school and killed 15 people and injured 200 do you think the US media would be reporting this with the same tone as Israel's bombings? Obama would be condemning Putin and all the news organizations would be against Russia. [B]But since Israel is their ally they are staying neutra[/B]l.

And lets be real, Israel wants those arab nations destroyed too. They all hate each other, there are no good guys in this scenario.[/QUOTE]
We are not neutral. we might claim to be but we are clearly pro israeli.
I am not sure if Israel is right or not, I am honestly very conflicted about it.

I am sure the US should support israel 100%. Any nation needs to support its allies, or the question emerges, why be an ally to that nation.

Eg. Assad is a monster. It is logical for russia to support him.
Also at this point im not sure we should help the germans if they ever need it.

[QUOTE=Patrick Chewing]Do you know what the President of the Free World and the most powerful man in the world is doing right now while the world burns???

Fundraising.


Fundraising instead of acting Presidential and trying to resolve conflicts as every past President before him has. Not to mention our border is in chaos with thousands coming across. He rather be fundraising instead.

Any sane President would be in Russia right now demanding a cease-fire and demanding Putin to pull back his troops. Any sane President would be in Israel right now demanding Hamas to surrender and demand they stop attacking Israel. Any sane President would pass legislation to deport every single illegal citizen back to the country they came from. We have millions on welfare and the President wants to borrow 4.7 billion dollars to tackle the border mess. The man is a buffoon. Worst President ever.[/QUOTE]
This is insane, you want to fight russia over ukraine?

Look if russia starts threatening a country we have a defense treaty with, eg estonia, poland, etc. then you have to respond or lose all credibility, but any president should be impeached for wanting to go to war with russia over ukraine.

[QUOTE=longhornfan1234]Honestly... I think we could defeat Russia handily.[/QUOTE]
agreed, the gap in military power between the US and russia is considerable.

I think the US could take russia and china combined. But it would force us to fully go to war as a nation, which we really havent done since WWII. Its not worth fighting russia over ukraine

[QUOTE=Real Men Wear Green][B]We've lost thousands of soldiers and spent trillions of dollars to fail to keep Iraq and Afghanistan under control and some of you think we can deal with Russia?[/B] This is idiotic. Of course Obama wants nothing to do with war with Russia. That would be because he's sane. We only attack Russia if they attack us. They have a huge, powerful military. They're far away (unless you live in Palin's house). A large population. Nukes. You want World War III? No one advocating military action should be pretending to care when soldiers die or the debt explodes. Madness.[/QUOTE]
The United States is clearly stronger than Russia, by any relevant measurement.

This is a politically incorrect statement but the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, have been very low intensity. I remember reading a study somewhere that less than 1% of all americans have been affected by the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan in a considerable way. Eg. fighting in combat or having someone in the nuclear family unit fight in them.

That is very different from WW2

US needs to give them some sanctions. They just murdered almost 300 people on that plane.

[QUOTE=MavsSuperFan]The United States is clearly stronger than Russia, by any relevant measurement.

This is a politically incorrect statement but the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, have been very low intensity. I remember reading a study somewhere that less than 1% of all americans have been affected by the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan in a considerable way. Eg. fighting in combat or having someone in the nuclear family unit fight in them.

That is very different from WW2[/QUOTE]
You completely missed the point. We have more military strength than anyone. That doesn't mean we could deal with Russia. You really think it's smart to overthrow their government and then nation-build like we did in Iraq and Afghanistan? That's a good use of lives and resources? 1% of our population is a few million people, and that's a heck of a lot of people.

[QUOTE=Godzuki]i don't follow the worlds oil reserves and supply but i do know the arab countries, Canada, us, and i know there are many more that can probably make up for it IF the EU weren't so attached and there already being a infrastructure/reliance of supply the EU is accustomed to. No way Russia is the end all be all source for oil in the entire world...[/QUOTE]

When I mention the Strait of Hormuz, I am not talking about Russia. I'm talking Iran, Iraq and Saudia Arabia. Arab oil

[IMG]http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/images/2012.01.04/Hormuz.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://images.nationalgeographic.com/wpf/media-live/photos/000/483/cache/energy-strait-hormuz-oil-choke-point-article_48362_990x742.jpg[/IMG]


Iran is on the right in that photo. Something like 20% of the world's oil flows through here. It used to be 30% but some new pipelines have come online in the last few years. And tanker ships can't use the whole width of the strait, just a two mile section. If you sink a couple of big ships and mine those two miles, well a fifth of the world's oil just went offline. Which probably brings China into your war.

This is probably why we have never gone to war with Iran.