All Jordan FG's With Kobe Defending

Kinda silly arguing over which era had better 2 guards.

Players from the 80s and up to the mid 90s played a different style, the game itself was played differently. The 2 guards from the 80s and 90s mostly played within the system and moved around more without the ball. They also played with their back to the defender more often than today's players, and many will argue that they were more skilled in different areas than today's players.

As we've shown repeatedly in this board, the league changed the rules to cater to perimeter players. I highly doubt that somebody like Wade would be as successful in the past, the same applies to a large amount of today's 'stars'. The main reason past wingmen weren't scoring as much as today's isn't because they wren't as talented. It's because the game as a whole was played differently, plain and simple.

How do you figure Wade wouldn't be a great player?

[QUOTE=tpols]So... If you tier the shooting guards its

Tier 1
MJ

Tier 2
Kobe, Wade
Clyde
Manu

Tier 3
Allen Iverson, Vince Carter,
Tracy McGrady, Ray allen
Penny Hardaway

Tier 4
Mitch Richmond, Joe dumas, spreewell
Joe Johnson, rip hamilton
Reggie Miller, Blackmon, alvin

[/QUOTE]
Ginobili is way too high - [I][U]two-way players[/U][/I] like Joe Dumars, Ronaldo Blackmon, and Alvin Robertson are better... Penny was obviously better too, and i'd take Richmond over him as well.

Also, Joe Johnson and Rip Hamilton should be on a 5th or 6th tier with Eddie Jones and Allan Houston, not up there with Reggie Miller, Joe Dumars, and Mitch Richmond.

Btw, Vince Carter is a losing stat-padder, just like Mitch Richmond, but a worse defender... he's gets overrated a ton due to his dunking... and there's no way i would take Vince over Joe Dumars or Reggie Miller either - that's ridiculous.... Ray Allen isn't better than Richmond, Dumars or Miller either..
.

[quote=KobesFinger]

[size="3"]Who are your top 10 SG's and SF's in Jordan's career?[/size]

[/quote]

[B][U][SIZE="3"]Best SG's 1984-1998:[/SIZE][/U]
[/B]
Michael Jordan
Clyde Drexler
Reggie Miller
Joe Dumars
Penny Hardaway
Mitch Richmond
Ronaldo Blackmon
Dennis Johnson
Alvin Robertson
Latrell Sprewell

[I]Honorable Mention[/I]: Reggie Lewis, Fat Lever, Byron Scott, Dale Ellis, Derrick McKey, Allan Houston, Eddie Jones, Jeff Malone, Ricky Pierce, Michael Finley, Steve Smith, Jerry Stackhouse, Ron Harper.


[B][U][SIZE="3"]Best SF's 1984-1998[/SIZE][/U]
[/B]
Larry Bird
Dr. J
Dominique Wilkins
Scottie Pippen
Bernard King
Adrian Dantley
Alex English
James Worthy
Chris Mullin
Grant Hill

[i]Honorable Mention:[/i] Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Glen Rice, [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360034][u]Kiki Vandeweghe[/u][/url], Mark Aguirre, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Tom Gugliotta, Sean Elliot, Richard Dumas


[B]Defensive Specialists (partial list):[/B] Michael Cooper, Dennis Rodman, George Lynch, Gerald Wilkins, Paul Pressey, Jerome Kersey, Xavier McDaniels, Stacey Augmon, Clifford Robinson, Doug Christie, Nate McMillan, Bobby Phills, Anthony Mason
.

^^^^^^^^^ took out Michael Finley from defensive specialists and moved him to honorable mention SG's.

[QUOTE=3ball]Ginobili is way too high - [I][U]two-way players[/U][/I] like Joe Dumars, Ronaldo Blackmon, and Alvin Robertson are better... Penny was obviously better too, and i'd take Richmond over him as well.

Also, Joe Johnson and Rip Hamilton should be on a 5th or 6th tier with Eddie Jones and Allan Houston, not up there with Reggie Miller, Joe Dumars, and Mitch Richmond.

Btw, Vince Carter is a losing stat-padder, just like Mitch Richmond, but a worse defender... he's gets overrated a ton due to his dunking... and there's no way i would take Vince over Joe Dumars or Reggie Miller either - that's ridiculous.... Ray Allen isn't better than Richmond, Dumars or Miller either..[/QUOTE]

Manu is one the best star defender of the 2000s impact wise.. In most defensive metrics he grades very high for a sg. You're exposing your ignorance by saying he wasn't a two way player.

Totally disagree on Vince carter.. Lots of stereotypes there.

As far as Joe Johnson and rip goes I agree Reggies better, but he just isn't on the tmac ray Allen Iverson Tier because of his one dimensional play.. Even ray Allen could handle the ball, playmake, finish, rebound and defend well.. Ray Allens a great shooter but he had a more well rounded game than Reggie.

we already knew youre a jordan dickrider OP.

[QUOTE=tpols]

Manu is one the best star defender of the 2000s impact wise.. In most defensive metrics he grades very high for a sg. You're exposing your ignorance by saying he wasn't a two way player.

[/QUOTE]
[B]we don't have those type of defensive stats for Joe Dumars, Alvin Robertson or Ronaldo Blackmon - if we did, their stats would crush Ginobili's... All those guys destroy Ginobili as a defender, but we don't have the stats to show it.
[/B]
also, it should be noted that RAPM doesn't work to compare players on different teams, because the players [I]need to play the same role for accurate comparison[/I], and no two players play the same role (i.e. Dikembe plays a different roles than Shaq... Bird played a different role than point guard Lebron, etc)... RAPM is only effective at comparing the impact of players [I]on the same team[/I], and even then the stat is fraught with error due to insufficient sample size.

[QUOTE=3ball][B]we don't have those type of defensive stats for Joe Dumars, Alvin Robertson or Ronaldo Blackmon - if we did, their stats would crush Ginobili's... All those guys destroy Ginobili as a defender, but we don't have the stats to show it.
[/B]
also, it should be noted that RAPM doesn't work to compare players on different teams, because the players [I]need to play the same role for accurate comparison[/I], and no two players play the same role (i.e. Dikembe plays a different roles than Shaq... Bird played a different role than point guard Lebron, etc)... RAPM is only effective at comparing the impact of players [I]on the same team[/I], and even then the stat is marginalized by insufficient sample size.[/QUOTE]

So why do you make such a big point of Jordan's RAPM in 96?

[QUOTE=KobesFinger]So why do you make such a big point of Jordan's RAPM in 96?[/QUOTE]
because most people don't want to consider non-quantitative factors and they really think RAPM is a great tool, so i just use their arguments against them, since Jordan was #1 based on any metric, including rapm.

but i think rapm is hot garbage - any coach that uses the stat to trot lineups out there is saying "i don't understand basketball, but fortunately i don't have to, because the stats tell me what to do"... then just program a robot to coach.. :rolleyes:
.

[QUOTE=KobesFinger]How do you figure Wade wouldn't be a great player?[/QUOTE]
have you seen him play?

[QUOTE=andgar923]have you seen him play?[/QUOTE]

Have you? In his prime he had a good mid-range game and now has a post game. He's also a great passer, rebounder and defender

[QUOTE=3ball]^^^^^^^^^ took out Michael Finley from defensive specialists and moved him to honorable mention SG's.[/QUOTE]

Paul Pressey nor Jerome Kersey were defensive specialist either. (they were just plain good players in general) The fact that you took Finley off (and even had him on in the first place) because of someone's post (mine) goes to show you don't even know what the hell you are talking about. Oh you pretend well enough that you know everything...we all know about the many words you can type...but you are just a classic bullshitter.

Anyone can make your post: state a fact, post a list, post some gifs, make a miniscule opinion about something you already posted 30 times before - 3ball

Edit: ^^^ I almost forgot one last important item to make it an accurate 3ball post - swallow jordans throat yogurt.

[QUOTE=Smoke117]

Paul Pressey nor Jerome Kersey were defensive specialist either. (they were just plain good players in general)

[/quote]
you're right.. both of these guys were good, 2-way players.


[QUOTE]

The fact that you took Finley off (and even had him on in the first place) because of someone's post (mine) goes to show you don't even know what the hell you are talking about.

[/QUOTE]
Thinking about Finley made me realize the SF's are on a much higher level than the SG's, because Finley doesn't come close to making the SF honorable mentions (those are some nice SF's), but he can sneak in their at SG if someone's being generous.

[QUOTE=3ball]


[B][U][SIZE="3"]Best SG's 1984-1998:[/SIZE][/U]
[/B]
Michael Jordan
Clyde Drexler
Reggie Miller
Joe Dumars
Penny Hardaway
Mitch Richmond
Ronaldo Blackmon
Dennis Johnson
Alvin Robertson
Latrell Sprewell

[I]Honorable Mention[/I]: Reggie Lewis, Fat Lever, Byron Scott, Dale Ellis, Derrick McKey, Allan Houston, Eddie Jones, Jeff Malone, Ricky Pierce, Michael Finley, Steve Smith, Jerry Stackhouse, Ron Harper.


[B][U][SIZE="3"]Best SF's 1984-1998[/SIZE][/U]
[/B]
Larry Bird
Dr. J
Dominique Wilkins
Scottie Pippen
Bernard King
Adrian Dantley
Alex English
James Worthy
Chris Mullin
Grant Hill

[i]Honorable Mention:[/i] Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Glen Rice, [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360034][u]Kiki Vandeweghe[/u][/url], Mark Aguirre, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Tom Gugliotta, Sean Elliot, Richard Dumas


[B]Defensive Specialists (partial list):[/B] Michael Cooper, Dennis Rodman, George Lynch, Gerald Wilkins, Paul Pressey, Jerome Kersey, Xavier McDaniels, Stacey Augmon, Clifford Robinson, Doug Christie, Nate McMillan, Bobby Phills, Anthony Mason

[/QUOTE]
i started making a list for 2000-2014, and the SGs match up much better than the SF's.

I can only find 9 good SF's worthy of being on any type of "era" list, and one of them is Kawhi Leonard - apparently, it's been a very thin position.. i think the frontcourt positions [I]in general[/I] are a lot thinner - more play-finisher/system-type players like Kawhi.
.