Official SG comparison thread: 2006 vs. 1997 vs. 1990

[quote=GIF REACTION]


[B][U]Illegal Defense Rules
[/U][/B]

[B]2a.[/B] Weak side defenders may come in the pro lane (16’), but not in the college lane (12’) [b][COLOR="Red"]for more than three seconds[/COLOR][/b].


[/quote]
As the bolded red shows, previous era defenders could remain INDEFINITELY in the "pro" lane, or the outer partition of the paint - today's defenders can't do that - they have a max of 3 seconds.

For the inner part of the paint (college lane), weakside defenders can stay for up to 3 seconds, just like today's defenders.


[quote=GIF REACTION]

[B]2b.[/B] Defender on post player is allowed in defensive three-second area (A post player is any player [COLOR="Blue"]adjacent[/COLOR] to paint area).

[COLOR="darkRed"][B]2b.[/B] When a defensive player is guarding an offensive player who is [COLOR="Blue"]adjacent[/COLOR] (posted-up) to the 3-second lane, the defensive player may be within the "inside lane" area with no time limitations. An offensive player shall be ruled as "postedup" when he is within 3' of the free throw lane line. A hash mark on the baseline denotes the 3' area.[/COLOR]

[/quote]
Rule 2b is a legal paint-camping provision.

As you can see, defenders were allowed to stay in the paint "[I]with no time limitation[/I]" if their man was in the paint already, or "[i]adjacent[/I]" to the paint - "[I]adjacent[/I]" is defined as when the offensive player is within 3 feet of either side of the paint, as denoted by hash marks on the baseline.. The hash marks are the only thing refs had to eyeball if an offensive player was "adjacent"/within 3 feet, or further than 3 feet/in violation, which is why defenders often camped in the paint while their man was all the way at the 3-point line (no enforcement).

The criteria needed to paint-camp (a defender's man being in the paint or within 3 feet of either side) was always fulfilled in previous eras due to the lack of 3-point shooting and spacing - coaches foolishly ran offenses that didn't shoot threes and positioned players close to the rim, which [i]activated[/i] this legal-paint camping provision of Rule 2b.. The full Illegal Defense Guidelines from the NBA rule book are [url=http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html][COLOR="Blue"]here[/COLOR][/url], also shown at realgm [url=http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=28840140&sid=f37d422abcb4fb3198dba014bc15f361#p28840140]here[/url].


[QUOTE=GIF REACTION]

[B]2c.[/B] Player without ball may not be double-teamed from weak side.

[/quote]
Rule 2c is the same thing as today's flooding - but flooding isn't an advantage for today's game.. Today's 3-pointers/spacing and the resulting further distance of help defenders makes offensive players more dangerous when they catch the ball, which necessitates extra tactics so the ballhandler isn't as secluded by the spacing - but the flooding tactic merely makes the concentration of defenders equivalent to an un-spaced court where help defenders were already in closer proximity.

Lack of spacing and closer proximity of help defenders made previous eras better-equipped to handle a player that has the ball without needing risky gambles like flooding, where big men come away from the rim to flood in a mismatch outside the paint.. Instead, the lack of 3-point shooting kept offensive players closer to the paint, which allowed defenders to paint-camp when their man was in the paint or within 3 feet of either side (see Rule 2b above).. Paint-camping is a more equitable way to defend the entire court, without necessitating the extra rotations and leaving guys wide open that flooding requires.


[QUOTE=GIF REACTION]


[B]2e.[/B] When a strongside offensive player is above the tip of the circle extended, his defensive man may be no lower than the [B][COLOR="Red"]free-throw line extended (upper defensive area)[/COLOR][/B] for more than 2.9 seconds

[B]2d[/B]. When an offensive player, with or without the ball, takes a position above the foul line, the defensive player may be no farther (toward the baseline) than the "[I][COLOR="Red"][B]middle defensive area[/B][/COLOR][/I]." Defensive player(s) may enter and re-enter the "lower defensive area" as many times as desired, so long as he does not exceed 2.9 seconds.

[/quote]
Rule [COLOR="Red"]2e[/COLOR] above shows that the "[I]upper defensive area[/I]" is the area above the FT line extended... This means the "[I]middle defensive area[/I]" includes the upper part of the paint.. Rule [COLOR="blue"]2d[/COLOR] refers to the "middle defensive area" - the rule allows defenders to stand in the upper part of the paint (middle defensive area) INDEFINITELY when their man is at college 3-point distance (the tip of the circle).

Otoh, today's defenders can never stay in the paint for longer than 3 seconds unless they're within "[I]armslength[/I]".. So today's defender isn't allowed to stand in the upper part of the paint while their man is at the college 3-point line (tip of circle), since that's way out of armslength reach.. But previous era defenders COULD stand in the upper part of the paint while their man was at the tip of the circle, so they had more flexibility in this spot.


[QUOTE=GIF REACTION]

[B]2e.[/B] If offensive player is above the top of the circle, defender must come to a position above foul line. [COLOR="Red"](within 2.9 seconds)[/COLOR]

[/QUOTE]
This is the same as today - when an offensive player is above the tip of circle, his defender can't sag into the paint for more than 3 seconds.. Rule 2e gives the defender 3 seconds, just like today's rule.

The full Illegal Defense Guidelines from the NBA rule book found [url=http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html][COLOR="Blue"]here[/COLOR][/url], also shown at realgm [url=http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=28840140&sid=f37d422abcb4fb3198dba014bc15f361#p28840140]here[/url]


[QUOTE=GIF REACTION]

Today's game has shooting-enforced spacing, not rule-enforced spacing

[/QUOTE]
Today's game has rule-enforced spacing in the paint ("[I]armslength[/I]").... and spacing-enforced spacing outside paint via 3-pointers.

Otoh, previous eras didn't have spacing-enforced spacing (no 3's).

They didn't have material rules-enforced spacing either - defenders could paint-camp and they could sag off 3-point shooters to the edge of the paint just like today's defenders.


[QUOTE=GIF REACTION]

Elite scorer numbers are down across the board

[/QUOTE]
False - there were only two 30-point scorers in the entire 90's - MJ did it 6 times and Karl Malone once - that's only 2 guys.. But in the 2000's there have been many 30-point scorers.. It's like night and day.

Furthermore, there are only 2 ball-dominators never even broke 25 ppg in the 90's!!!... The game just wasn't set up for ball-dominators back then like it is now.. Otoh, the no spacing and hand-checking of previous eras are the 2 things least conducive to penetration.


[QUOTE=GIF REACTION]

ball movement and [B][COLOR="Red"]clever schemes[/COLOR][/B] are required for these elite scorers to hit the box score.

[/QUOTE]
False again - over 50% of Harden and Lebron's offense comes from isolations and screen-roll.. It was 60% for Lebron in the playoffs.. 50-60% is standard for point guards and ball-dominators like Harden, Lebron, various other wings, and virtually all PG's.. [I]So offenses aren't more "clever" - it's just one drive-and-kick after another.[/I]

One reason teams can use drive-and-kick so easily is because zone is only allowed OUTSIDE the paint.. Inside the 16 x 19 ft paint, defenders must stay within [url=http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html]"armslength"[/url] (about 3 feet) to remain in the paint, which is the opposite of a zone and the strictest defense possible outside of having defenders stand shoulder-to-shoulder.. Yet this strict no-paint-camping, no-zone policy is what governs the most important area of the floor: [I]the paint[/I].


[QUOTE=GIF REACTION]

George Karl on how the rule changes have made post ups inefficient

[/QUOTE]
George Karl is wrong..

It's a mathematical fact that without 3-pointers, the efficiency of screen rolls/drive-and-kick plummets and becomes not worthwhile compared to post-ups.. This proves that the decline in post-ups is due to higher efficiency drive-and-kick made possible by 3-pointers, not defensive tactics.. In the absence of 3-pointers, no amount of defensive strategy could prevent post-ups from supplanting drive-and-kick.

Since post-ups, mid-range, off-ball and isolations were the only things left in the 80's without the 3-pointers needed to make drive-and-kick back worthwhile, we can say with certainty that Lebron would be half the player back then - he's simply not elite in any of these areas.


[QUOTE=GIF REACTION]

[B]2001 - Removal of Illegal Defense Guidelines[/B]

Purpose: [B]To encourage ball movement and team play through giving defenses more freedom to defend, [COLOR="Red"]particularly help defense from the weak side[/COLOR][/B], which was extremely restricted from 1981-2001 with the Illegal defense guideline in place

[/QUOTE]
The NBA said their rule changes were meant to create superior spacing, which put ALL defenders a further distance away from helping, especially weakside help defenders.

Specifically, the NBA said they wanted to increase drive-and-kick to encourage 3's and make spacing better, so they robbed the defense of their hands (literally) and forced them to keep the paint clear (defensive 3 seconds) to "open up the game".. Here the NBA's official statements on the rule changes:

[url]http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html[/url]
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[QUOTE=3ball]You mean this [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10691982&postcount=20][u]Tim Duncan[/u][/url].. [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10923969&postcount=8][u]this Garnett[/u][/url]?

I'd take prime Barkley and Malone over Garnett EASILY - KG has never been able to carry a team offensively to the Finals - EVER.. He could never have done what those guys did.. and Duncan's always been better.

[I]As for Dirk - Malone and Barkley are both a rich man's Dirk - superior offensively and rebounding, same (better actually) defensively.
[/I][/QUOTE]

Garnett and Duncan provide all time great defense at the most important position for defense PF/C. Barkley and malone range from mediocre to below average for defense which makes them a liability [I]especially[/I] given the nature of their position.

Dirks offense is >> than barkley and Malone's because it is of the dominant takeover variety and provides incredible spacing.. unlike chuck with his broke long range jumper and Karl whose game is purely in the flow with zero ability to dominate in the clutch like Dirk has.

And that's without taking into account the huge gap in leadership between them, and longevity in barkley case.

[QUOTE=tpols]

Dirks offense is >> than barkley and Malone's because it is of the dominant takeover variety and provides incredible spacing.. unlike chuck with his broke long range jumper and Karl whose game is purely in the flow with zero ability to dominate in the clutch like Dirk has.

[/QUOTE]
Dirk only made 1 three-pointer per game in the 2011 Finals (only 7 in 6 games) - instead, he beat the Heat the exact same way Barkely and Malone would - the post and mid-range - only they'd do it even better.

Btw, I said Duncan was better.. But not Garnett - his offense is a lot of bird-fed, and less kind of offense that can takeover down the stretch - Garnett doesn't really have a great post game.. :confusedshrug:
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[QUOTE=tpols][B]Who would take barkley and malone over dirk, garnett; and duncan ? [/B]:oldlol:

It's like a trio of some of the greatest intangibles and leadership guys ever compared to Known choke artists with questionable character.

and mid 2000 guards is >>>

All the 90s had was better centers.everything else the mid 20 00s was better[/QUOTE]
3ball, boss. 3ball.

Dude is a delusional AF. Kobe played in the best EVER era for guards.

3ball, you can meltdown however hard you want to, but the FACT is Kobe played against better competition.

[B][U][COLOR="Red"]29-17[/COLOR][/U][/B].

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[B][SIZE="4"]Lebron is not a team player[/SIZE]
[/B]

He tries to do everything himself - he's the least assisted player of any wing other than Harden.

When the team's #1 option scores all his buckets himself, he's not letting teammates throw him assists or use him to playmake [I]themselves[/I], which lowers their assisting capacity and engagement in the game.

Lebron might be a nice guy off the court, but on the court, he's like an introvert that doesn't engage others, such as asking for help (an assist) - in this way, he's not a team player and isn't an asset his teammates can use to reach the next level: [I]being a playmaker[/I], rather than just a play-finisher waiting on Lebron to toss them a dime.

Contrastingly, a great scorer that plays off-ball has a much higher assisted rate and therefore OPENS UP the game with more opportunities for teammates to assist/playmake more.. This results in greater engagement, synergies and a completely higher [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10422919&postcount=9][u]dimension[/u][/url] of playing.
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[QUOTE=aj1987]

Kobe played in the best EVER era for guards.

[/QUOTE]
There's only one way to describe an NBA that [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=373182][u]can't beat Euroleague[/u][/url]: [I]the worst era of all time[/I].

THAT'S when Kobe accumulated his prime stats.

[IMG]http://img.pandawhale.com/post-41349-jonah-hill-oscars-cut-it-out-g-w5Tc.gif[/IMG]

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[SIZE="3"]Can someone list the best SF's from today's era for comparison purposes?[/SIZE]


[B][U][SIZE="3"]Best SF's 1984-1998[/SIZE][/U]
[/B]
Larry Bird
Dominique Wilkins
Scottie Pippen
Bernard King
Adrian Dantley
Alex English
James Worthy
Chris Mullin
Grant Hill
Dr. J

[i]Honorable Mention:[/i] Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Glen Rice, [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=360034][u]Kiki Vandeweghe[/u][/url], Mark Aguirre, Glenn Robinson, Jamaal Mashburn, Detlef Schrempf, Tom Gugliotta,, Sean Elliot, Richard Dumas

[I]Defensive Specialists:[/I] Dennis Rodman, Derrick McKey, Rodney McCray, Clifford Robinson, Anthony Mason, Paul Pressey, George Lynch, Jerome Kersey, Stacey Augmon
.

29-17.

/thread

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]


3ball, my dude, what happened to all your gifs?


[/QUOTE]

They're gone.. someone took the entire site down.. It worked out better because the old site was a nightmare.. Now I use a much faster, more user-friendly site and my gifs are better.. For example, now I'm good at comparing two scenarios, such as Lebron and MJ having the ball at the elbow, and the different defensive looks they see in front of them:


[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-13-2015/ZN3fsu.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-06-2015/uAh_p8.gif[/IMG]


[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]


[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-13-2015/BwsUCL.gif[/IMG]

[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-01-2015/8Fa7R_.gif[/IMG]


I actually tried looking up the archived ones you posted for reference, and all the links seem to be dead.


[/QUOTE]
[I]Let me know what gifs you wanted to see - I probably have them on the new site.[/I]

It's funny because I have some Lebron gifs on there too, and but they were all wide open dunks, mostly after using a screen or in transition.. Whereas, more of MJ's shots were highly contested, so he had many more hangtime, dipsy-do shots and chest-to-chest posters... Lebron's shot allocation is easier (due to the spacing-inspired 3-and-D).

Of course, you can't do 3-and-D all the time, like at very high shot volumes - Unfortunately, it's a statistical fact that Lebron isn't capable of good efficiency at high shot volume, since he's horrible at the [B]additional midrange[/B] (shown above) required of high volume shooting.. 27 shot attempts per game (the amount Lebron averaged in 2015 Playoffs) cannot be achieved on all 3-and-D - good midrange is needed to shoot well at this volume.. Accordingly, Lebron's career 37% midrange efficiency precludes him from ever shooting well at very high volumes - this is a statistical fact.

[QUOTE=3ball]Chris Paul, Kevin Garnett, Rajon Rondo, Kirk Hinrich, Dennis Rodman and Chauncey Billups never guarded Kobe..

That's 6 guys, which reduces your list to 23 and less than MJ's list of All-NBA defenders (wing players who actually guarded MJ heads-up).[/QUOTE]
29-17, kid.

Deal with it.

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[SIZE="4"]The NBA stated that the rule changes worked as planned to increase penetration.. This is from the creator and implementer of the new rules, so this is not subjective opinion, similar to how Bill Gates vision for Microsoft was never considered "subjective opinion":[/SIZE]

[url]http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html[/url]


[I]NBA.COM[/I]: Since the hand-checking rule was interpreted differently beginning in the 2004-05 season, the game has opened up. [COLOR="Red"]Players are penetrating and the floor is spread.[/COLOR] As a result, scoring has risen every season. Was this anticipated back in 2004?

[I]NBA[/I]: Our objective was to allow for more offensive freedom by not allowing defenders to hand-, forearm- or body-check ball handlers. [COLOR="Red"]By doing so, we encouraged more dribble penetration[/COLOR]. As players penetrated more, it produced higher quality shots for the ball handler as well as shots for teammates on passes back out to perimeter. When NBA players get higher quality shots -- having more time to shoot -- they tend to make more of them.


[I]NBA.COM[/I]: Shooting percentages have risen since 2004-05 regardless of location -- at-the-rim shots, short- and deep-mid range and 3-pointers. Does this surprise you, especially the higher percentages from 3-point range?

[I]NBA[/I]: It doesn't. [COLOR="Red"]With the rule and interpretation changes, it has become more difficult for defenders to defend penetration[/COLOR], cover the entire floor on defensive rotations and recover to shooters. With more dribble penetration, ball handlers are getting more opportunities at the rim.


[I]NBA.COM[/I]: From an Xs and Os perspective, how have coaches adjusted to a more wide-open game? What have they done differently?

[I]NBA[/I]: [COLOR="Red"]Coaches have utilized more space on the floor so to create more room for dribble penetration[/COLOR], two-man pick-and-roll basketball and dribble exchanges on the perimeter.


[i]NBA.COM[/i]: When you watch the game today, does it closely resemble an international game or are there still distinct differences in the style of play?

[i]NBA[/i]: Our game does more closely resemble an international game in terms of the style of play than it used to. However, there are distinct differences in the international game vs. the NBA game. [COLOR="Red"]The international game utilizes a pure zone defense (as opposed to the defensive three-second rule), which allows frontcourt players to stand in the middle of the lane and discourage cutting, passing and dribble penetration.[/COLOR]


There it is in black and white (and red).. :confusedshrug:
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[B]More 2-foot leaping.. How come MJ has to go over and through defenders while Lebron gets wide open lanes?
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