All MJ myths busted (for reference)

[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]

I think those 19 wins come from 2009 LBJ being better than 1989 MJ.

[/quote]
^^^^ TRANSLATION:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [I]"No Mas... I can't think of any reasons why Lebron's 28/8/7/49 achieved 19 more wins than MJ's 33/8/8/54, other than the obvious that he faced worse competition and had a superior supporting cast - but I can't admit that, so I'll chalk up all 19 wins to Lebron being better than the GOAT... :hammerhead: [/I]

Anytime I get someone to say something absurd like that, it lets me know my argument is right.. I'm not sure why you decided to respond - if my choices in an argument were to either admit I'm wrong, or say some dumb shit like "[I]Kobe is so much better than Jordan, that his inferior stats are worth 19 more games[/I]"... I'd just admit I was wrong or stop replying rather than say some dumb shit like that.


[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]

Just because they're closer to the paint doesn't mean they'll be able to help against the ball-handler.

[/QUOTE]
Yes it does.. :banana:.. Players who are closer to the paint, will be able to help quicker IN the paint.

And they're not just closer to the paint - they're already in the paint and waiting there "[I]with no time restriction[/I]".. This allows much more freedom than today's "[I]armslength[/I]" and "[I]2.9 second[/I]" restrictions.


[QUOTE=ralph_e_il]

LeBron literally made Mo Williams an all-star. He's renowned for making his teammate's better. 80's Jordan was considered a selfish chucker.

[/QUOTE]
Pippen's stats increased by leaps and bounds alongside MJ, while Mo Williams' stats got worse alongside Lebron.. So if Lebron *made* Mo Williams an all-star, then MJ literally created Pippen from dust into a HOF..

The reality is that Lebron has a reputation for making players WORSE - see Wade, Bosh and Love for examples A, B, and C... Whereas MJ made all the Bulls better - not one of them had their stats crater next to MJ like Lebron did with Bosh, Love and Wade.

MJ also turned a lot of nobodies that no one would ever know into recognizable players - i.e. Grant, Kerr, Paxson.. Let's face it, without MJ, we've never heard of Kerr and the Warriors aren't champs right now - Kerr had been cut from Orlando before joining the Bulls - MJ turned him into a [I]somebody[/I]... Talk to me when Lebron makes a guy's career like that.


[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]


[IMG]http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-30-2015/jkrR_v.gif[/IMG]


....and you posted a .gif where David Lee was standing in the paint for 5 seconds and also would have been in violation of illegal D,


[/QUOTE]
Not at all - in the gif you reference, David Lee is clearly tippy-toeing with his foot and staying out of the lane - he's standing exactly where a previous era defender would stand.

And actually, look at Isiah above - his man is considered to be on the weakside, which makes Isiah a weakside defender - weakside and strongside defenders whose man was above the tip of the circle extended were allowed to dip below the FT line extended ("upper defensive area") and into the paint for 2.9 seconds, which is exactly what Lee is allowed to do:

[INDENT][I][COLOR="Blue"]2e[/COLOR]. "....When a strongside offensive player is above the tip of the circle extended, his defensive man may be [color="blue"]no lower than the free-throw line extended (upper defensive area) for more than 2.9 seconds[/color]..."

"....When a weakside offensive player is above the tip of the circle, his defensive man must be [COLOR="blue"]no lower than the "upper defensive area" for more than 2.9 seconds[/COLOR]...."[/I][/indent]


[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]

and Mo Speights couldn't help because he had to keep TT off the boards (remember, he was killing everyone on the O-boards).

[/QUOTE]
That's not how basketball works - it's a benchable offense to hug your man in anticipation of a blockout.. It's the defender's responsibility to "find your man" everytime a shot goes up - this is taught to players from junior high.

Speights isn't going to blockout, he's making sure he remains within armslength.. This is the kind of stricter paint defense that would hinder defenders if teams didn't shoot 3-pointers in today's game, and defenders were forced to defend offensive players who now occupied the paint much more often... For today's defenders to remain in the paint, they must stay within 3 feet (armslength) of an offensive player and follow them around within the 16 x 19 foot paint.

The "armslength" defense imposed on paint defenders by today's rules is a stark contrast to previous eras, where defenders could stand anywhere in the paint "with no time restriction" if their man was already in the paint or within 3 feet of either side..

Today's rules for paint defense are much more restrictive on defenders than prior eras, while today's rules for defense outside the paint are less restrictive, at least strategically (but still not physically because of hand-check ban and bans on other physicality)..
.

[QUOTE=3ball]^^^^ TRANSLATION:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] [I]"No Mas... I can't think of any reasons why Lebron's 28/8/7/49 achieved 19 more wins than MJ's 33/8/8/54, other than the obvious that he faced worse competition and had a superior supporting cast - but I can't admit that, so I'll chalk up all 19 wins to Lebron being better than the GOAT... :hammerhead: [/I]

Anytime I get someone to say something absurd like that, it lets me know my argument is right.. I'm not sure why you decided to respond - if my choices in an argument were to either admit I'm wrong, or say some dumb shit like "[I]Kobe is so much better than Jordan, that his inferior stats are worth 19 more games[/I]"... I'd just admit I was wrong or stop replying rather than say some dumb shit like that.



Yes it does.. :banana:.. Players who are closer to the paint, will be able to help quicker IN the paint.

And they're not just closer to the paint - they're already in the paint and waiting there "[I]with no time restriction[/I]".. This allows much more freedom than today's "[I]armslength[/I]" and "[I]2.9 second[/I]" restrictions.



Pippen's stats increased by leaps and bounds alongside MJ, while Mo Williams' stats got worse alongside Lebron.. So if Lebron *made* Mo Williams an all-star, then MJ literally created Pippen from dust into a HOF..

The reality is that Lebron has a reputation for making players WORSE - see Wade, Bosh and Love for examples A, B, and C... Whereas MJ made all the Bulls better - not one of them had their stats crater next to MJ like Lebron did with Bosh, Love and Wade.

MJ also turned a lot of nobodies that no one would ever know into recognizable players - i.e. Grant, Kerr, Paxson.. Let's face it, without MJ, we've never heard of Kerr and the Warriors aren't champs right now - Kerr had been cut from Orlando before joining the Bulls - MJ turned him into a [I]somebody[/I]... Talk to me when Lebron makes a guy's career like that.



Not at all - in the gif you reference, David Lee is clearly tippy-toeing with his foot and staying out of the lane - he's standing exactly where a previous era defender would stand.

And actually, look at Isiah above - his man is considered to be on the weakside, which makes Isiah a weakside defender - weakside and strongside defenders whose man was above the tip of the circle extended were allowed to dip below the FT line extended ("upper defensive area") and into the paint for 2.9 seconds, which is exactly what Lee is allowed to do:

[INDENT][I][COLOR="Blue"]2e[/COLOR]. "....When a strongside offensive player is above the tip of the circle extended, his defensive man may be [color="blue"]no lower than the free-throw line extended (upper defensive area) for more than 2.9 seconds[/color]..."

"....When a weakside offensive player is above the tip of the circle, his defensive man must be [COLOR="blue"]no lower than the "upper defensive area" for more than 2.9 seconds[/COLOR]...."[/I][/indent]



That's not how basketball works - it's a benchable offense to hug your man in anticipation of a blockout.. It's the defender's responsibility to "find your man" everytime a shot goes up - this is taught to players from junior high.

Speights isn't going to blockout, he's making sure he remains within armslength.. This is the kind of stricter paint defense that would hinder defenders if teams didn't shoot 3-pointers in today's game, and defenders were forced to defend offensive players who now occupied the paint much more often... For today's defenders to remain in the paint, they must stay within 3 feet (armslength) of an offensive player and follow them around within the 16 x 19 foot paint.

The "armslength" defense imposed on paint defenders by today's rules is a stark contrast to previous eras, where defenders could stand anywhere in the paint "with no time restriction" if their man was already in the paint or within 3 feet of either side..

Today's rules for paint defense are much more restrictive on defenders than prior eras, while today's rules for defense outside the paint are less restrictive, at least strategically (but still not physically because of hand-check ban and bans on other physicality)..
.[/QUOTE]


:facepalm Mo Williams has never been close to how good he was alongside Bron.

Statlines aren't everything. I guess you think Elgin Baylor is better than MJ right? 38 and 18 is 38 and 18....CONTEXT BE DAMNED!

[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]

Mo Williams was better alongside Bron.

[/quote]
Not at all - his efficiency was down, and his assists were down 33% alongside a ball-dominant, low-assisted SF like Lebron:

[I]Mo in 2008 w/out Lebron[/I]: 17.2/3.5/[B]6.3[/B] on 48%
[I]Mo in 2009 WITH Lebron[/I]: 17.6/3.4/[B]4.1[/B] on 46%

Also, regardless of Lebron's stats, Lebron-ball has been proven to make his TEAM ineffective against the better playoffs teams... But even though Lebron-ball dooms his team's capability against the best in the playoffs, his supporting cast is still blamed when the team loses.


[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]

[B]I guess you think Elgin Baylor is better than MJ right?[/B] 38 and 18 is 38 and 18....

[/QUOTE]
Elgin might have been better than Jordan.. But there's no "might have" for Lebron - I put Elgin over Lebron FOR SURE.. Elgin was a skilled scorer, with soft touch and probably the goat mid-range game along with MJ and Bird.

Otoh, Lebron's lack of scoring versatility prevents him from performing as well as these guys against the better competition in the playoffs, Finals, and clutch.. This is proven by a comparison of these stats and Lebron's consistently non-threatening performance on the biggest stage.

By "non-threatening", I'm talking about how Lebron's 17 fga on 57% wasn't threatening in 2014 Finals... And when he tried to actually BE threatening by doubling his fga in 2015 Finals, his efficiency couldn't handle it, cratering to 39% (due to him sucking at the extra mid-range and isolations required of high volume shooters - [I]the things ELGIN was goat at[/I].....).


[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]

Statlines aren't everything.

[/QUOTE]
True, but Lebron's 35% fg in areas required of high volume shooters (mid-range, isolation) proves Lebron is *[I]simply not a good enough player[/I]*... He isn't capable of achieving sufficient efficiency to win a championship WHILE CARRYING A TEAM (shooting a high volume).

His lack of skill in critical areas required of high volume shooters is why his Finals efficiency [I]cratered[/I] from 57% in the low-volume 2014 (when 3-and-D was sufficient to get 17 fga), to 39% in high-volume 2015 (when mid-range and isolations were required)..

The most amazing thing is that 36 ppg on 39% is Lebron's CEILING in the Finals, since he had optimal conditions - he was never double-teamed and he enjoyed the most secluded isolations in the history of the game.

Btw, we know that Lebron would be worse in the "no 3-pointer" 80's with no one spreading the floor for him - in the absence of the 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick worth it, the only options left are the things he's horrible at - mid-range, post, and isolation skills.


[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]

CONTEXT BE DAMNED!

[/QUOTE]
The proper context is that today's game allows defenders to "play halfway" outside the paint, and "[I]within armslength[/I]" inside the paint.

Defenders in previous eras weren't allowed to play halfway outside the paint as often as today's defender, but the coaches' lack of spacing allowed them to play halfway ALL THE TIME inside the paint (legal paint-camping anywhere inside the 16 x 19 foot paint) - defenders in previous eras had far more freedom in the paint.

Also, previous era defenders never had to be "[I]within armslength[/I]" of their defender anywhere on the floor - that language didn't exist in the rules, let alone apply to the most important area of the floor: the paint.
.

[QUOTE=3ball]Not at all - his efficiency was down, and his assists were down 33% alongside a ball-dominant, low-assisted SF like Lebron:

[I]Mo in 2008 w/out Lebron[/I]: 17.2/3.5/[B]6.3[/B] on 48%
[I]Mo in 2009 WITH Lebron[/I]: 17.6/3.4/[B]4.1[/B] on 46%

Also, regardless of Lebron's stats, Lebron-ball has been proven to make his TEAM ineffective against the better playoffs teams... But even though Lebron-ball dooms his team's capability against the best in the playoffs, his supporting cast is still blamed when the team loses.



Elgin might have been better than Jordan.. But there's no "might have" for Lebron - I put Elgin over Lebron FOR SURE.. Elgin was a skilled scorer, with soft touch and probably the goat mid-range game along with MJ and Bird.

Otoh, Lebron's lack of scoring versatility prevents him from performing as well as these guys against the better competition in the playoffs, Finals, and clutch.. This is proven by a comparison of these stats and Lebron's consistently non-threatening performance on the biggest stage.

By "non-threatening", I'm talking about how Lebron's 17 fga on 57% wasn't threatening in 2014 Finals... And when he tried to actually BE threatening by doubling his fga in 2015 Finals, his efficiency couldn't handle it, cratering to 39% (due to him sucking at the extra mid-range and isolations required of high volume shooters - [I]the things ELGIN was goat at[/I].....).



True, but Lebron's 35% fg in areas required of high volume shooters (mid-range, isolation) proves Lebron is *[I]simply not a good enough player[/I]*... He isn't capable of achieving sufficient efficiency to win a championship WHILE CARRYING A TEAM (shooting a high volume).

His lack of skill in critical areas required of high volume shooters is why his Finals efficiency [I]cratered[/I] from 57% in the low-volume 2014 (when 3-and-D was sufficient to get 17 fga), to 39% in high-volume 2015 (when mid-range and isolations were required)..

The most amazing thing is that 36 ppg on 39% is Lebron's CEILING in the Finals, since he had optimal conditions - he was never double-teamed and he enjoyed the most secluded isolations in the history of the game.

Btw, we know that Lebron would be worse in the "no 3-pointer" 80's with no one spreading the floor for him - in the absence of the 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick worth it, the only options left are the things he's horrible at - mid-range, post, and isolation skills.



The proper context is that today's game allows defenders to "play halfway" outside the paint, and "[I]within armslength[/I]" inside the paint.

Defenders in previous eras weren't allowed to play halfway outside the paint as often as today's defender, but the coaches' lack of spacing allowed them to play halfway ALL THE TIME inside the paint (legal paint-camping anywhere inside the 16 x 19 foot paint) - defenders in previous eras had far more freedom in the paint.

Also, previous era defenders never had to be "[I]within armslength[/I]" of their defender anywhere on the floor - that language didn't exist in the rules, let alone apply to the most important area of the floor: the paint.
.[/QUOTE]


nope, Elgin had better stats than MJ, so he must have been better. I'm just using your own logic. MJ never had a season as good as Elgin. Sorry. Wilt is the goat. Tiny Archibald is better than MJ.

Mo Williams was chucking on a 26 win Bucks squad in '08. Shot 2 more 3's a game at a significantly higher percentage next to LeBron.


I don't get why you keep saying that LeBron's style is "ineffective" and he's not good enough for the playoffs. [B]He has almost exactly the same winning % in playoff games as MJ[/B]. He's gone to the finals 5 straight times. He took his team to the finals at an age when MJ hadn't left the first round. He finally got help as good as MJ and won twice. He might have won last year if his second and third best players weren't hurt. Charles Barkley would have a ring if he went up against MJ without Pippen and Grant.


We get it, LeBron is an inconsistent shooter. He's also the quickest NBA player EVER for his size, AND the best passer for his size. He's one of the GOAT finishers. Talk shit about his post game, but outside of the finals (missing his 2 best shooters and playing against the best defense) his post game is one of the most efficient in the league every season since he went to the Heat.


LeBron is a top-10 all time player already. I'd take MJ over him obviously. Your premise, however, that MJ is better than LeBron in every facet of the game is just FALSE. All this "tough era" nonsense as well. The game has evolved, defense is more free, shooting is better and offensive strategy is better today. Plus, all of MJ's best statistical seasons came in a RUN AND GUN NO DEFENSE ERA.


Luck and context are real. We know MJ won 6/6 titles. We get that he's the GOAT. A few situational changes, however, and maybe he doesn't even go to 6 finals. It takes a lot of help and luck for ANY player to win ONE final. No matter how good a player is, there are always a few other guys in the league that are comparable to them in impact.


Did you honestly just say that LeBron would do WORSE in the 80's? He's one of the greatest transition players ever.....and he would do WORSE IN THE PREMIER FASTBREAK ERA????? Where he's also be allowed to bully defenders way more often without worrying about offensive fouls? :facepalm Bron might have had a triple double season playing at 80's pace.

My hate for MJ grows. even tho I like him.

[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]:facepalm Mo Williams has never been close to how good he was alongside Bron.

Statlines aren't everything. I guess you think Elgin Baylor is better than MJ right? 38 and 18 is 38 and 18....CONTEXT BE DAMNED![/QUOTE]
mo avg 18ppg before join the cavs :banana:

[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]nope, Elgin had better stats than MJ, so he must have been better. I'm just using your own logic. MJ never had a season as good as Elgin. Sorry. Wilt is the goat. Tiny Archibald is better than MJ.

Mo Williams was chucking on a 26 win Bucks squad in '08. Shot 2 more 3's a game at a significantly higher percentage next to LeBron.


I don't get why you keep saying that LeBron's style is "ineffective" and he's not good enough for the playoffs. [B]He has almost exactly the same winning % in playoff games as MJ[/B]. He's gone to the finals 5 straight times. He took his team to the finals at an age when MJ hadn't left the first round. He finally got help as good as MJ and won twice. He might have won last year if his second and third best players weren't hurt. Charles Barkley would have a ring if he went up against MJ without Pippen and Grant.


We get it, LeBron is an inconsistent shooter. He's also the quickest NBA player EVER for his size, AND the best passer for his size. He's one of the GOAT finishers. Talk shit about his post game, but outside of the finals (missing his 2 best shooters and playing against the best defense) his post game is one of the most efficient in the league every season since he went to the Heat.


LeBron is a top-10 all time player already. I'd take MJ over him obviously. Your premise, however, that MJ is better than LeBron in every facet of the game is just FALSE. All this "tough era" nonsense as well. The game has evolved, defense is more free, shooting is better and offensive strategy is better today. Plus, all of MJ's best statistical seasons came in a RUN AND GUN NO DEFENSE ERA.


Luck and context are real. We know MJ won 6/6 titles. We get that he's the GOAT. A few situational changes, however, and maybe he doesn't even go to 6 finals. It takes a lot of help and luck for ANY player to win ONE final. No matter how good a player is, there are always a few other guys in the league that are comparable to them in impact.


Did you honestly just say that LeBron would do WORSE in the 80's? He's one of the greatest transition players ever.....and he would do WORSE IN THE PREMIER FASTBREAK ERA????? Where he's also be allowed to bully defenders way more often without worrying about offensive fouls? :facepalm Bron might have had a triple double season playing at 80's pace.[/QUOTE]
He's one of the GOAT finishers because of denfensive 3 seconds rules

[QUOTE=Paul George 24]mo avg 18ppg before join the cavs :banana:[/QUOTE]

On the 26 win bucks who only had one other scorer.
200 guys in the league could do that right now.

[QUOTE=3ball]...if my choices in an argument were to either admit I'm wrong, or say some dumb shit like "[I]Kobe is so much better than Jordan, that his inferior stats are worth 19 more games[/I]"... I'd just admit I was wrong or stop replying rather than say some dumb shit like that.
.[/QUOTE]
I call BS on this.

You've never admitted you were wrong. You only stop replying. May as well leave out that first part.. "I'd just admit I was wrong or..." Just leave that out.

[QUOTE=Paul George 24]He's one of the GOAT finishers because of denfensive 3 seconds rules[/QUOTE]
No it's because he's an incredible finisher. His strength/explosion/coordination combo is unmatched.

gonna respond in a sec ralph
.

3ball,

Do you intentionally post misleading "facts", and just hope that no one counters them? Or do you actually believe that your misleading "facts" are, in fact, facts?

[QUOTE=kshutts1]3ball,

Do you intentionally post misleading "facts", and just hope that no one counters them? Or do you actually believe that your misleading "facts" are, in fact, facts?[/QUOTE]
get specific, or stfu with your passive-aggressive, beta ass...

say what you mean - don't beat around the bush like a ***

[QUOTE=kshutts1]3ball,

Do you intentionally post misleading "facts", and just hope that no one counters them? Or do you actually believe that your misleading "facts" are, in fact, facts?[/QUOTE]
:oldlol:

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]

:oldlol:

[/QUOTE]
[B]again, get specific, or stfu.. I post facts.... for example, you guys post poppycock, ignorant opinion by claiming MJ's era was run-and-gun era, so I respond with facts:[/B]

[I]Pace was slower and ppg was less during MJ's 2nd three-peat - all three seasons had slower league-wide pace and PPG.

And before MJ's 2nd three-peat, the Bulls were always the slowest paced team in the league - from MJ's rookie year and throughout his entire career, the Bulls' pace ranged from 92-97, which is the same as this season's 94 pace.

Furthermore the pace always slows down in the playoffs - pace in the PLAYOFFS from the 80's was the same pace as today.. i.e. the pace in 1988 playoffs was 94.0, and 87.4 in 1996, which are both lower than the 94.4 playoff pace in 2015:

(1988): [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1988.html#all_misc_stats[/url]
(1996): [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1996.html#all_misc_stats[/url]
(2015): [url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2015.html#all_misc_stats[/url]
[/I]

[I]Again, we know that Lebron's halfcourt game would be worse in the "no 3-pointer" 80's with no one spreading the floor for him - in the absence of 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick worth it, the only options left are the things he's horrible at - mid-range, post, and isolation skills.[/I]
.