If today's defenders have more "freedom", then league-wide ORtg should be lower

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]

You still can't see the conflict of saying something makes it easier immediately after saying all is equal.

[/QUOTE]
You can't understand how spacing makes it easier for players, but other things make it harder, thus keeping ORtg stable?

Again, just admit that you got horrible grades and didn't finish high school.

[QUOTE=3ball]You can't understand how spacing makes it easier for players, but other things make it harder, thus keeping ORtg stable?

Again, just admit that you got horrible grades and didn't finish high school.[/QUOTE]
Nah I was pretty good in school, but whatever helps you cope my man. Keep contradicting your own statements thays what smart guys do right?:rockon:

[QUOTE=sdot_thadon]

Nah I was pretty good in school, but whatever helps you cope my man. Keep contradicting your own statements thays what smart guys do right?

[/QUOTE]
It's not a contradiction to say that today's spacing makes it easier for today's players, while also saying that ORtg remains stable... Obviously, spacing is not the only factor affecting ORtg.

Now, back to the [COLOR="Red"]thread cliffs[/COLOR]:

[I][INDENT]While today's defenders have been given unlimited freedom outside the paint (zone), they're hog-tied inside the paint - inside the paint, defenders must stay within "armslength", which is the strictest defense possible other than making the defender stand shoulder-to-shoulder with his man or something ridiculous like that.

Of course, in addition to "armslength" restriction, the hand-check/physicality ban also offsets the zones allowed outside the paint.

These types of offsetting factors is why league-wide Ortg has remained stable (between 105-108) for the last 30 years (other than a brief drop-off immediately after MJ retired) - stable league-wide ORtg proves that it remains equally hard to score across different eras.[/INDENT][/I]
.

still no rebuttal on this itt:


[QUOTE]


GOAT perimeter defense and elite playmaking vs someone who took plays off on defense and chucked.

big difference.


scottie's intangibles = goat like,


hence jordan's 1-9 record in the postseason without him.


from 1991-1998 (including 1995), during the bulls dynasty reign,

pippen = more assists per game during 5/7 of their playoff runs.


[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1991.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1992.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1993.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1995.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1996.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1997.html[/url]

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1998.html[/url]


its stupid to go off percentages if we're talking about a game-to-game basis. game-to-game, scottie had more playmaking IMPACT


along with those numbers, from 1991-1998, pippen also had better +/- metrics on the defensive end via rapm - the highest of all perimeter players.


[url]http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com[/url][/quote]

:confusedshrug:

.
[B]Playoff assist % during first 3-peat (1991-1993):
[/B]
Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]


[B]Assist Percentage during 2nd three-peat (1996-1998):
[/B]
Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]


[SIZE="3"][COLOR="Red"][I] As you can see, MJ assisted on a FAR higher percentage of teammates FG's... This is a statistical fact
[/I][/COLOR][/SIZE]
.

[QUOTE=3ball]


[B]Playoff assist % during first 3-peat (1991-1993):
[/B]
Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]


[B]Assist Percentage during 2nd three-peat (1996-1998):
[/B]
Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]


[SIZE="3"][COLOR="Red"][I] As you can see, MJ assisted on a FAR higher percentage of teammates FG's... This is a statistical fact
[/I][/COLOR][/SIZE]

[/QUOTE][QUOTE=mehyaM24]

still no rebuttal on this itt:


[B][SIZE="3"]its stupid to go off assist percentages[/SIZE][/B] if we're talking about a game-to-game basis. game-to-game, scottie had more playmaking IMPACT


[/QUOTE]
There's no need to respond to this because it's wrong - everyone knows assist percentage is the most relevant stat relating to assists.

As the previous post shows, MJ's assist percentage was FAR higher than Pippen's so he assisted on a higher percentage of his teammates shots... Period.

[I]There's no disputing that MJ assisted on a higher percentage of his teammates shots than Pippen... :confusedshrug: ... So you have no point.[/I]

assist percentage = assists per 100 possessions.

individual players don't have the ball in their hands enough for this to be relevant.


apg = on a per game basis, game-to-game. this means scottie pippen, from game-to-game, was more of an impact passer than jordan.


like i said - you have no rebuttal.

don't bother posting those numbers again. i will just re-post my ether, shredding them again.

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]assist percentage = assists per 100 possessions.

individual players don't have the ball in their hands enough for this to be relevant.


apg = on a per game basis, game-to-game. this means scottie pippen, from game-to-game, was more of an impact passer than jordan.


like i said - you have no rebuttal.

don't bother posting those numbers again. i will just re-post my ether, shredding them again.[/QUOTE]
Mj led them in asts most years in playoffs. 88,89,90,91, and 93. So what exactly are you smoking?

[QUOTE=mehyaM24]

apg = on a per game basis, game-to-game. this means scottie pippen, from game-to-game, was more of an impact passer than jordan.

[/QUOTE]
Wow, you're even dumber than sdot_thadon... ****ing amazing.

Assist % does NOT mean assist per 100... Assist % is the percentage of teammates' shots that MJ assisted on.

MJ assisted on a higher percentage of his teammates' shots.. Anyone remotely knowledgeable knows that assist % is the most relevant stat.

[QUOTE=juju151111]Mj led them in asts most years in playoffs. 88,89,90,91, and 93. So what exactly are you smoking?[/QUOTE]

Yeah, from 1989-1993 Jordan averaged 7 apg in the playoffs. Pretty insane considering he was also scoring 34 ppg over that same playoff stretch! It wasn't until the second 3-peat that Pippen took on more of a primary playmaking role. By that time Jordan was nearing his mid 30's so it made sense for Pippen to take over those duties. The original point-forward.

[QUOTE=GrapeApe]

Yeah, from 1989-1993 Jordan averaged 7 apg in the playoffs. Pretty insane considering he was also scoring 34 ppg over that same playoff stretch!

It wasn't until the second 3-peat that Pippen took on more of a primary playmaking role. [B]By that time Jordan was nearing his mid 30's so it made sense for Pippen to take over those duties[/B]. The original point-forward.

[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="Blue"]You're too young to have seen the 2nd three-peat, and now you're making stuff up after the fact.[/COLOR]


[B]Playoff Assist Percentage during 2nd three-peat (1996-1998):
[/B]
Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]

[QUOTE=3ball]Again, this is FACTUALLY incorrect, yet another lie by you guys - in 1997, teams attempted 16.8 threes per game, at 36.0%.

That's more than the 16.0 threes on 35.8% in 2007, yet ORtg was the same in 2007 as it was in 1997 (106.5 to 106.7).

It was the same thing in 2008 and 2009 - teams also attempted approximately the same number of threes at the same percentage as 1997, yet ORtg was higher than 1997.

So that destroys your ignorant theory that was based on nothing - it's better to pay attention to the FACTS, rather than make up your own bullshit.[/QUOTE]
:facepalm 1997 short line you dumb ******

[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]

:facepalm 1997 short line you dumb ******

[/QUOTE]
By saying this, all you're proving is that you have no idea what we're arguing - the distance of the line has no relevance to the point being made.

Remember what the argument is - the argument is that stable ORtg over the years proves that it's equally hard to score in different eras... [COLOR="blue"]Opponents of this view say that defense IS better today, but today's 3-point shooting offsets the superior defense, which causes today's ORtg to remain the same as previous eras[/COLOR].. This is proven false because in 1997, teams took the same amount of 3-pointers at the same percentage as teams from today's era (2005-2011), yet ORtg was still the same back then (less actually).

So the 3-pointer argument holds no water and the original point remains - league-wide ORtg has remained stable for the last 30 years, which proves that it remains equally-hard to score across the eras.

This thread proves all the theories about defense that you new fans have created to downgrade previous era players is complete BS.

[QUOTE=3ball][COLOR="Blue"]You're too young to have seen the 2nd three-peat, and now you're making stuff up after the fact.[/COLOR]


[B]Playoff Assist Percentage during 2nd three-peat (1996-1998):
[/B]
Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced[/url][/QUOTE]

So let me get this straight. I'm not too young to have seen the first 3-peat (because I praised Jordan), but I'm too young to have seen the second 3-peat because I stated a fact that somehow you disagree with? Jordan himself would tell you that Pippen had more playmaking responsibilities in the second 3-peat. Are you familiar with the concept of age? A player simply cannot do the same things in their mid 30's that they were able to do in their 20's, hence the reason second 3-peat Jordan shared and at times deferred playmaking duties.

You do realize Jordan was human right? You talk about him like he was some kind of deity.

From what I've come to realize is that... for all intents and purposes, the league has changed stylistically, but the outputs haven't changed much.

Today the game is more team orientated than ever. For an individual player to shine, you need to have multiple scoring options on the floor. In the past, you could get away with 2-3 players who weren't genuine offensive threats because of the ISO ball from the illegal defense rules.

The talent hasn't suddenly dropped. Top players don't score as much because it doesn't equate to success like it used to. Today you can go out and score 30 a game, but it will most likely be to the detriment of their team.

People like to use the 2006 scoring leader increase as an example. How many of those scoring leaders had much success playing that way? It was only til Kobe played more team orientated, that he started succeeding again.