MJ is the most double-teamed player of all time, besides Wilt

[QUOTE=3ball]PHILA's data shows that MJ had a 1.23 PPP on isolations (which includes some double-teams that shouldn't be included, so the number is actually higher).

MJ's 1.23 PPP on isolations is a stark contrast from Lebron's 0.93 and 0.70 PPP in regular season and playoffs, respectively, which ranked him 114th out of 315 in RS, and 35th out of 39 in playoffs.

That's how we know MJ could've won the 2015 Finals... He would've shot well over 50% in Lebron's shoes, given all the secluded isolations Lebron enjoyed where he was all alone on the strongside and faced an open paint - MJ never got isolations like that (seen above) where he had the entire strongside to himself AND and open paint - but Lebron enjoyed those kind of iso's for the entire series.[/QUOTE]
I firgot to save it but he was also shooting 50% on midrange in 97 at 34 years old.

[quote=3ball]How can it be an isolation if he's getting double-teamed?.. Makes no sense.. [/quote]
He is isolating on the wing before the double team arrives. I did not keep track of double teams at all when compiling this data. I agree though his isolation percentage is probably in the mid to high 30's for a full season.

[quote=DavisIsMyUniBro] Do you have any future plans.[/quote]
Magic perhaps, Moses Malone, Ewing, Robinson, etc.

[quote]I dont want to sound overbearing, and these are requests, but what do you think of Robinson, defensively.

I think he overachieved with his rosters the most, other than Lebron.[/quote]
Very underrated player, he is in conversation for greatest defensive player after Russell.


[quote]Also, how much would you estimate Jordan scored in regular, non-catch and go iso situations?

I recall that he had an abnormally high iso success rate in your study, at first, I though it was just because he was goat and all of that, but looking at footage, his catch and go drives (those are correctly categorized I think) probably skewed it a bit.[/quote]
I am not sure, I may do a playoff only version to get a better picture and actually record the data like synergy does this time.


[quote]where you do get the footage of those games?[/quote]
Most of them came from sport-scene.net which has since been taken down for some reason, probably copyright.

[quote]Just wondering, if its to much to ask, could you send it to a site such as synergy or JE? they do great things there. One thing I would like to see is RAPM numbers. I mean, looking at your Jordan study, you definately have enough data for him. (generally, 100 ish games is a decent sample).[/quote]
I don't see the point since I am sure the NBA already has the complete season data going back to the early 90's. This is possible highlight bias as well. Now that playoff clutch data can be used as an official standard, at least by 82games method.

[quote]Also, what about Wilt and Russell? how much footage do you have of them?[/quote]
Very little is known to exist, most of which is up [URL="http://www.youtube.com/user/Hal15Greer/videos"]on Youtube[/URL]. But only a few games from Russell's prime exist (one of which is complete) and zero complete games from Wilt's prime are available.

[quote]Sorry if this sounds overbearing, but the guys at realgm would salivate over some RAPM data for peak Jordan.[/quote]
I don't think that is possible unless you have the play by play data for every player in the NBA during those years.

[QUOTE=3ball]PHILA's data shows that MJ had a 1.23 PPP on isolations (which includes some double-teams that shouldn't be included, so the number is actually higher).

MJ's 1.23 PPP on isolations is a stark contrast from Lebron's 0.93 and 0.70 PPP in regular season and playoffs, respectively, which ranked him 114th out of 315 in RS, and 35th out of 39 in playoffs.

That's how we know MJ could've won the 2015 Finals... He would've shot well over 50% in Lebron's shoes, given all the secluded isolations Lebron enjoyed where he was all alone on the strongside and faced an open paint - MJ never got isolations like that (seen above) where he had the entire strongside to himself AND and open paint - but Lebron enjoyed those kind of iso's for the entire series.[/QUOTE]

Alright, I respect your basketball knowledge, but seriously, stop this Lebron Agenda. Nobody on ISH believes that peak Lebron is better than Peak MJ.

I personally rate Lebron highly.

But here is my opinion on looking at play types.


Something that people overlook, is that how many playtypes, result in other playtypes. I mean, there is a reason why the ball-handler pick and roll is run so much, despite its low effeciency.

after executing the pick and roll, passes are usually made, which result in spot ups, cuts, etc. these arent measured by play type stats.

Likewise, how many of Lebron's isos actually end up with him passing to a cutter, for a score?

Im willing to bet that in certain games, many of them, but the iso wont be credited with the point. the Cut will.


Lebron is overrated on the isolation. that much I will agree with.

As for WHY MJ's Isolation game was so good, ill repost here what I did on Realgm.

For Jordan, I believe its the fact that he could do so much that no one could see.

ill just add my arguement in another page here.
I believe that he does alot of things that no one sees, which is a testament to his bball iq, and his overall skillset.

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8MP6839B78[/url]

ill just put in a few plays where I think jordan is underrated in bball iq

in 2:20, the timing of his jab step was superb. he pretty much time it exactly as his defender was coming off the screen, so he was rushing back to get to jordan, and was left off balance. the window to use this jab step to basically get him off-balance, in this situation, was literally less than half a second. the defender had to over commit to one side, and jordan simply bursted past him in the other side.
in around 2:30, he made a really subtle head fake. while this by itself is quite normal, though the way he did it was quick and pretty much perfect, the important thing to note is that there was a guard literally right next to him that had barely even started running to the corner, making it seem much more legitimate. he basically read what his teammate was going to do before his teammate himself knew it.

in 3:48 ish, there was a really subtle head fake. it was hard to see even when slowing down teh video to 0.25 speed, that got the defender leaning. not only that, but he did a push through crossover that really was just long enough to avoid the defenders hands, but short enough that jordan kept full control/full speed. considering that he scored over 1.9ppp in transition according to some studies, it seems like he would do this on a majority of his transition plays, its just so hard to see. Its more clearly seen int eh 4 minute mark, and its obvious that the defender expected him to go the other way, as he shifted his foot jsut enough so jordan could get past him.

in 4:50, its another show of how he times his jab steps. he basically timed it as his defender was still approaching him, and his left foot was in the air, which made him lean a little, once again.

in 6:45, this is a reason why I think he was much better in the early ninetys than post baseball. normally, even athletic players like westbrook and Wall start "preparing" their fastbreak shot around teh ft line. They only really prepare it furthur when they are literally completely open, to the point where a clear path foul is possible. With Jordan, he regularly, as long as he had a clear few steps to gather, prepared his transition buckets from the 3 point line, and simply used a mixture of his long arms and long strides to just simply find a perfect angle to jump between the gaps of the defense.

6:53 demonstrates his ability to basically understand the mindset of his defender. it seems just like a simple hesitation, and then a crossover. in my opinion, he did something brilliant. he basically played the whole game at full throttle, either making it a point to really get past the defender completely, with room to spare, or take a jab and swing the other way. What he did here was go at a medium pace. at this point, his defender had basically been manhandled, so he pretty much really overcommitted. had he done this earlier, i doubt this would have worked. his ability to change pace multiple times in one possession was frankly astounding. he basically kept a medium pace this time to pretty much displace his defender, and get to the basket at the same time. Something else, is that he used his patented tounge while going during the hesitation, basically making it seem like he would 100% go at that certain direction. something I find unique is how he kept his head low throughout. imo, other superstars usually keep their head a little bit higher during their hesitation moves, making it seem more obvious imo. (a general concept I learned is the lowest head always wins)

7:25 demonstrates his ingenuity. he uses a referee as a screen. he also gets into an argument with Danny Ainge, basically meaning he would have won if a fight started, and his reputation would have been bolstered.

at around 7:50, he made the most subtle move of the game. first of all, he timed this perfectly, just as his defender was lifting his foot that he wanted to "move away" Secondly, the speed at which he did this head fake was probably the fastest one so far. while he was bringing the ball down. he actually made it seem like he would bring it down to the right, and moved his head very slightly to the right, first, if one slows the footage down and watches frame by frame.


IIRC, most stars, even those who actually shoot a higher percentage than MJ at the rim, rarely have these moments.

Someone similar to him is wade, in this type of thing though. not as good obviously, but the most "invisible" play I saw was actually from wade.

[QUOTE=3ball]MJ's 53% on isolation jumpers is a stark contrast from the 40% and 33% that Lebron shot on isolations in the regular season and playoffs, respectively, [I]and that included shots at the rim[/I], not just jumpers like MJ's 53% represented.

Lebron's 40% and 33% shooting on isolations in RS and PO ranked him 135th out of 315, and 35th out of 39, respectively.

[B]That's how we know MJ could've won the 2015 Finals[/B]... He would've shot well over 50% in Lebron's shoes, given all the secluded isolations Lebron enjoyed where he was all alone on the strongside and faced an open paint - MJ never got isolations like that (seen above) where he had the entire strongside to himself AND and open paint - but Lebron enjoyed those kind of iso's for the entire series.[/QUOTE]
Heavy speculation on your part. We have no idea what kind of performance MJ would have put up playing in his 5th straight Finals.

You keep referring to the 2015 Finals as if it was fresh legged LeBron playing. Could he have played better, sure. But don't make it sound as if he hadn't logged many postseason minutes up until then. It was a miracle they won 2 games.

[QUOTE=PHILA]He is isolating on the wing before the double team arrives. I did not keep track of double teams at all when compiling this data. I agree though his isolation percentage is probably in the mid to high 30's for a full season.



Magic perhaps, Moses Malone, Ewing, Robinson, etc.


Very underrated player, he is in conversation for greatest defensive player after Russell.



I am not sure, I may do a playoff only version to get a better picture and actually record the data like synergy does this time.



Most of them came from sport-scene.net which has since been taken down for some reason, probably copyright.


I don't see the point since I am sure the NBA already has the complete season data going back to the early 90's. This is possible highlight bias as well. Now that playoff clutch data can be used as something


Very little is known to exist, most of which is up [URL="http://www.youtube.com/user/Hal15Greer/videos"]on Youtube[/URL]. But only a few games from Russell's prime exist (one of which is complete) and zero complete games from Wilt's prime are available.


I don't think that is possible unless you have the play by play data for every player in the NBA during those years.[/QUOTE]


I mean, the thing is, Synergy Sports and alot of other sites dont actually use this footage. if they had it, then im sure they would do something with it. they are very creative lol.

im sure JE doesent have the data.

Im not quite sure how the RAPM data works, but I do think that all we need is the Bulls seasons to do this, as I think that in essense, RAPM data is just lineup adjusted on-off ratings..

Also, while your Jordan analysis is VERY good, to be honest, its the BEST read in terms of on Jordan I have ever seen, In my opinion, there might have been a slight problem with the stats. the Misc category seems far too filled, though considering he was a special player, that could have been why.

Im guessing the guys at synergy would just compile the lineup/play by play data for the bulls from footage. anyway, this is more of a "what if?" kind of thing.

Again, this is just a request.

[quote]Again, this is just a request.[/quote]
Now that sport-scene.net is down, a lot of what I use is from Youtube. I don't know what the request is for, but I am pretty sure they already have the data and are just sitting on it for whatever reason. The NBA even talked about [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8338965&postcount=22"]digitizing its archive[/URL] going back to the 1950's. These 5 channels are great for old NBA games.


[URL="https://www.youtube.com/user/michalus/videos"]https://www.youtube.com/user/michalus/videos[/URL]

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/user/supereldoncloud/videos"]https://www.youtube.com/user/supereldoncloud/videos[/URL]

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCio3Yej1qXnqYRmB0THRELQ/videos"]https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCio3Yej1qXnqYRmB0THRELQ/videos[/URL]

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8-044bto1AXpoC6xiH5ntA/videos"]https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8-044bto1AXpoC6xiH5ntA/videos[/URL]

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCo6OfBwxOb89-e0S-GXWxyw/videos"]https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCo6OfBwxOb89-e0S-GXWxyw/videos[/URL]

How many double teams do you guys count here please tell me [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOS1qNTWb70[/url]

[QUOTE=PHILA]Now that sport-scene.net is down, a lot of what I use is from Youtube. I don't know what the request is for, but I am pretty sure they already have the data and are just sitting on it for whatever reason. The NBA even talked about [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8338965&postcount=22"]digitizing its archive[/URL] going back to the 1950's. These 5 channels are great for old NBA games.


[URL="https://www.youtube.com/user/michalus/videos"]https://www.youtube.com/user/michalus/videos[/URL]

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/user/supereldoncloud/videos"]https://www.youtube.com/user/supereldoncloud/videos[/URL]

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCio3Yej1qXnqYRmB0THRELQ/videos"]https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCio3Yej1qXnqYRmB0THRELQ/videos[/URL]

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8-044bto1AXpoC6xiH5ntA/videos"]https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8-044bto1AXpoC6xiH5ntA/videos[/URL]

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCo6OfBwxOb89-e0S-GXWxyw/videos"]https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCo6OfBwxOb89-e0S-GXWxyw/videos[/URL][/QUOTE]


ahh, oh well.

Thanks for the videos though:rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon:

[QUOTE=DavisIsMyUniBro]ahh, oh well.

Thanks for the videos though:rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon:[/QUOTE]
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOS1qNTWb70[/url]

[QUOTE=DavisIsMyUniBro]

there's a reason why the ball-handler pick and roll is run so much, [B]despite its low effeciency[/B]

[/quote]
:wtf:

Screen-roll/drive-and-kick is the MOST efficient play in today's game - that's why it's used so much - it yields the highest PPP.. The reason drive-and-kick has become the highest efficiency play and is now the foundation of every team's offense is because today's 3-point shooting makes screen-roll/drive-and-kick more mathematically worthwhile than before - driving and kicking for 3-pointers yields a far higher PPP than driving-and-kicking for 2-pointers.

It's a statistical fact that WITHOUT 3-pointers, the efficiency of screen-roll/drive-and-kick plummets and isn't worthwhile anymore.. If you removed the 3-point line from today's game, nothing could prevent post, midrange, and off-ball play from making a comeback and supplanting drive-and-kick like in the 80's and 90's.

This is how we know that Lebron would suck in the 80's.... Lebron's lack of midrange, isolation and off-ball ability prevents him from being as good back then, when these were the primary options remaining in the absence of the 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick mathematically worthwhile.

Without teammates spreading the floor for him and making drive-and-kick the force it is today, Lebron would have to score from the mid-range like everyone else in the 80's - since he sucks at mid-range, we know for a fact he would be a lesser player back then.

3ball we know you don't like the modern era of basketball...you've repeated it enough times for us not to know, but don't you like any other players from the Jordan era? Can't you at least use this shtick on a different player? You have already said everything you have to say about Jordan 100 times or so...have some pity on us and say the same shit over and over about a different player.

[QUOTE=Smoke117]

Can't you at least use this shtick on a different player?

[/QUOTE]
It's not a schtick... It's the truth... Lebron's horrible midrange means he wouldn't be as good in the 80's when that was the primary option without the 3-point shooting needed to make drive-and-kick mathematically worthwhile..

I mean, if Lebron shot 50% from midrange instead of 35%, then I would have no argument - but his horrible midrange efficiency enables the argument to be true... Btw, his horrible midrange efficiency is the reason for his horrible isolation efficiency, since 1-on-1 results in a lot of midrange.


[QUOTE=Smoke117]

[B]have some pity on us[/B]

[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://dc379.4shared.com/img/w6pOLZ3Z/s3/12ab7f3afd8/Steven_Seagal_Animatie_2_Bew.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Smoke117]3ball we know you don't like the modern era of basketball...you've repeated it enough times for us not to know, but don't you like any other players from the Jordan era? Can't you at least use this shtick on a different player? You have already said everything you have to say about Jordan 100 times or so...have some pity on us and say the same shit over and over about a different player.[/QUOTE]

Thing is, he actually knows a shit ton, and most of the time what he says is true, but it's about 2 players...all the time. Really just makes me not like Jordan tbh.

[QUOTE=3ball]:wtf:

Screen-roll/drive-and-kick is the MOST efficient play in today's game - that's why it's used so much - it yields the highest PPP.. The reason drive-and-kick has become the highest efficiency play and is now the foundation of every team's offense is because today's 3-point shooting makes screen-roll/drive-and-kick more mathematically worthwhile than before - driving and kicking for 3-pointers yields a far higher PPP than driving-and-kicking for 2-pointers.

It's a statistical fact that WITHOUT 3-pointers, the efficiency of screen-roll/drive-and-kick plummets and isn't worthwhile anymore.. If you removed the 3-point line from today's game, nothing could prevent post, midrange, and off-ball play from making a comeback and supplanting drive-and-kick like in the 80's and 90's.

This is how we know that Lebron would suck in the 80's.... Lebron's lack of midrange, isolation and off-ball ability prevents him from being as good back then, when these were the primary options remaining in the absence of the 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick mathematically worthwhile.

Without teammates spreading the floor for him and making drive-and-kick the force it is today, Lebron would have to score from the mid-range like everyone else in the 80's - since he sucks at mid-range, we know for a fact he would be a lesser player back then.[/QUOTE]

That is what I'm saying-ish I guess.

But the actual ball handler pick and roll I recall is technically the lowest average in terms of points per possession alone.

Mj is the most doubled team player while bran is being defended like a role player yet his stans has the guts to compare him to mj.lol