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Re: Jordan's help. Wow.
[QUOTE=sundizz]1. Scottie Pippen
The 2nd best perimeter player of the 90's. Arguably the best perimeter defender of all time.
2. Dennis Rodman
The best rebounder of all time and one of the mos versatile defenders of all time. He put up seasons of 14.9 rpg, 16.1 rpg, and 15.0 rpg in his seasons with the Bulls.
3. Horace Grant
Played with the Bulls for 7 seasons until 93-94. The epitome of a perfect role player. Was a consistent player with a deady midrange jumper and outstanding defense. Peaked in his final Chicago season with outstanding averages of 15.1 ppg, 11.0 rpg, 3.4 apg, 1.1 spg, 1.2 bpg on 52%.
4. Toni Kukoc
Came in right after Horace left. Played with the Bulls from 93-94 up through Jordan's retirement. A lefty, solid playmaker, and smooth handles. What else would you expect out of another of Jordan's superstar teammates? Came over already established and in his prime at the age of 25. In his 2nd season with the Bulls he put up a cool 15.7 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.3 spg on 50%.
5. Charles Oakley
He played with Jordan before he learned how to collect and utilize talent amazingly (while berating it needlessly). They had a stint together in the 87-88 season where the Oak Tree dropped a more than respectable 12.4 ppg, 13.0 rpg, and 3.0 dimes. All while being a tree.
6. BJ Armstrong
A steadfast point guard that was reliable. Beyond reliable in reality - a great running mate. Stuck it out on the Bulls from 89-95. Learned the game (while being a great bench player) his first three years with good numbers. Peaked at the right time as a starter in the 93-94 season with a solid and efficient scoring line of 14.8 ppg, 3.9 apg on 48%, 44%, 86%
7. Ron Harper
Was a stat stuffer. Came to the Bulls to become a winner and increase their already league leading talent pool. What'd he drop the year before he joined the Bulls? An inspired 20.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.9 spg performance with some high level defense.
And a bunch of white guys that spread the floor as knock down shooters.
Has there ever been such a loaded roster as the ones Jordan enjoyed? I used to think Kobe or Bron had help but remembering history has shown that even the collusion titles of Bran pale in comparison to the talent dump the Bulls were. It's no surprise that they were still title contenders without him. Did he come back because his legacy would of been hurt by them winning a chip without him, or because he truly wanted the challenge of playing with an unfairly stacked team to win chips against significantly inferior opposition?[/QUOTE]
You added guys that weren't that great in the first place and/or weren't that great when they played with Jordan. Why didn't you add George Gervin, Artis Gilmore, Robert Parish, Rip Hamilton, and Jerry Stackhouse while you were at it ? :oldlol:
By the way, funny how you paint this picture like Jordan played with all these guys at once. If you did the same thing for Kobe and Lebron, then Kobe must've played with Shaq, Gasol, Rice, and Payton with Howard, Malone, Nash and Rodman off the bench and Lebron had Bosh, Love, Wade, Kyrie starting alongside him all at once.
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Re: Jordan's help. Wow.
[QUOTE=plowking]Them getting Harper was the equivalent of the current Spurs or Cavs getting a Kevin Martin like player at his peak with Thabo Sefolosha like defense.
Absolutely ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
The f*ck? :oldlol:
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Re: Jordan's help. Wow.
[QUOTE=juju151111]They also passed the first round because the team they face was injured[/QUOTE]
Injuries are part of the game and either way they came within a hair of beating the Knick's and they beat Indiana in 4/5 games during the reg-season.
They could have easily made the Final's that year.
They were a legit contender that year.
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Re: Jordan's help. Wow.
[QUOTE=guy]The f*ck? :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
The crazy part is that people like him actually believe that to be an apt comparison lol. He's FAR closer to Sefalosha's defense than prime Martin's offense in '96-'98.
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Re: Jordan's help. Wow.
[QUOTE=Wade's Rings]For sure obsessed with Bron. All my threads are dedicated to him and a good amount of my posts, excellent deduction :applause:[/QUOTE]
Glad you're aware. You follow me around and comment on the majority of my Lebron/Wade posts. We get it you don't like Lebron, but go troll a Lebron stan I honestly don't care.
[QUOTE=Wade's Rings]No his help wasn't. From '06-'10 he had a great defense and good rebounding team. They were competitive even when Lebron wasn't playing great in Playoff Series.[/QUOTE]
His help was so great that he either led or was tied in points, assists, rebounds(0.4 difference), blocks (0.2 difference), steals.
Quite the crap man, take Lebron off that team from 06-10 and replace him with anyone not name Kobe and they get rekted in the first round every year.
[QUOTE=Wade's Rings]What players outside of Jordan?
Your whole last sentence lacks context which I posted about earlier. I should've expected you to just deflect though, what else is new?[/QUOTE]
You stated their previous trips and that they gained Kukoc and Kerr. Longley was hurt most of the season and Kukoc and Kerr's combined >20 ppg scoring doesn't cover the GOAT scorer leaving.
Your post said his scoring was impressive because he had offensive freedom in the GOAT system. I responded showing his Playoff numbers before Phil & the GOAT system and asked why did he put those numbers if the GOAT system made his scoring impressive? You don't even know what the f*ck your posting, don't talk about my reading comprehension you moron.[/QUOTE]
Before I stated that I prefaced it with "his IMPACT was overrated", but I did say his scoring was good due to his freedom in the GOAT system. I didn't mention his scoring in his earlier years because he scored alot but it resulted in losing. But continue name calling as if you know me.
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Re: Jordan's help. Wow.
[QUOTE=3ball]The 2011 Cavs lost literally half their team - they lost 4 starters (Mo Williams, Shaq, Lebron, Antawn Jamison), plus various other 25+ mpg players (Delonte, Varejao, Zydrunas) - this would cause any team's ORtg to be horrible.[/QUOTE]
Jamison was on the 2011 team and healthy for a good portion of the season. And you were talking about scoring output which I addressed, not starters/25+ MPG player, quit moving the posts bro. You keep bringing up role players and players that retired the next year.
[QUOTE=3ball]This isn't remarkable at all - it's standard... When a team loses 4 starters AND 3 other role players - literally half their team - they will fall to the bottom.. So there's no need to be amazed bud.[/QUOTE]
Why did the team never even come close to that offensive production, even after attaining more players and getting multiple lottery picks?
[QUOTE=3ball]This is easily disproven by simple stats - Jordan was more efficient than Lebron, Kobe, and Wade in FG%, TS%, and ORtg - that's all the efficiency measures.
If Lebron or Kobe could shoot a higher volume at the same efficiency - they would... But they can't - only Jordan is capable of maintaining the same efficiency at higher volume:
[SIZE="1"][U]Per 100 Possessions in Playoffs:[/U]
JORDAN:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. [COLOR="green"]32.5 fga.. 48.7 fg.. 56.8 ts.. 118 ORtg[/COLOR]
LEBRON:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. [COLOR="Navy"]26.8 fga.. 47.3 fg.. 56.5 ts.. 114 ORtg[/COLOR]
KOBE:[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 34.7 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk.. [COLOR="Navy"]27.7 fga.. 44.8 fg.. 54.1 ts.. 110 ORtg[/COLOR]
WADE:[COLOR="White"]....[/COLOR] 32.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk.. [COLOR="Navy"]24.5 fga.. 47.8 fg.. 55.4 ts.. 108 ORtg[/COLOR][/size][/QUOTE]
I've already destroyed this post multiple times, quit posting it.
The difference in their TS% is so little that it's insignificant. Also when you apply context, I won't even try because you don't know the meaning of context, they are equal efficiency wise.
Jordan scored more because he shot more. I already proved this to you, I'm not doing it again.
[QUOTE=3ball]Again, this is easily disproven by stats.. When Jordan left in 1994, Pippen's stats didn't improve from his highs alongside Jordan:
[I]Pippen 1992[/I]: 21.0 ppg.. 7.7 rpg.. [COLOR="Navy"][I]7.0 apg[/I][/COLOR].. 50.6 fg
[I]Pippen 1994[/I]: 22.0 ppg.. 8.7 rpg.. [I][COLOR="Navy"]5.6 apg[/COLOR][/I].. 49.1 fg
Grant's stats barely changed too - he averaged 14/10 in 1992, compared to 15/11 in 1994..
So your dead wrong that when MJ left, everyone's stats went up - that's complete bullshit.. Instead, it's a testament to MJ's superior, off-ball style that Grant and Pippen could play to full capacity alongside Jordan. [/QUOTE]
Grant and Pippen are the only two players on the team?
They play in an equal opportunity system, only Jordan had the freedom to shoot at his own pace.
They both had their career highs without Jordan, that's not a coincidence.
[QUOTE=3ball]You must be a teenager to say something so stupid - experience is part of chemistry.
And since you agree that the 1991 Bulls couldn't have won 55 without MJ, you concede the journey was [I]accumulative[/i] - the gradual acquisition of 3-peat-caliber execution, strategy, and teamwork enabled the Bulls to make the 2nd Round without MJ in 1994..
MJ had to lead the Bulls to a 3-peat first, before they could make the 2nd Round without him - those are the historical facts.[/QUOTE]
Experience can be gained without chemistry you dumbass. Pippen grew up with Jordan, he had no experience regardless of chemistry.
I don't agree to shit, and I don't do hypothetical situations.
MJ led them there before the 55 win season because Jordan was there since the beginning, there's no plausible way to know if they could have done i t in 1991. How stupid are you?
[QUOTE=3ball]We know for a fact that the Bulls supporting cast wasn't talented because they needed MJ to score a higher proportion of his team's points than any player ever, while also assisting on the highest proportion of teammate field goals (team leader in assist % every year) and playing goat-level defense.
MJ's goat scoring load included 50% of the Bulls' 4th quarter points in the 1997 and 1998 playoffs (during the time he was on the floor).. Compare that to Lebron's 14% to 35% of his team's 4th quarter points - these are [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=392376]well-documented statistical facts[/url] that show Lebron is nowhere near carrying the load MJ did.[/QUOTE]
This is the same copy/paste bullcrap. MJ shot more.
[QUOTE=3ball]Wade and Bosh were hurt half the year.. It's amazing that you could overlook this.
Apparently, you'll say ANYTHING and overlook the obvious points that refute what you want to believe.. i.e. Wade/Bosh injuries.. Jordan's superior efficiency.. Pippen/Grant's unchanged stats when Jordan left..
I mean, it's remarkable how wrong you are on virtually everything.. and it's due to your blind bias and penchant for liking Lebron's rigid, bumbling, unskilled game (at least compared to MJ)[/QUOTE]
Bosh was hurt throughout the 2012 season.
Wade was hurt throughout the 2014 season and played more games in 2015 than in 2014.
Along with that in 2014 there were the additions of Whiteside, Deng, and Dragic.
Even with all this the Heat weren't even in the top 20 in ORTG.
And look at this year you idiot. Everyone is healthy and the added Green, yet their still 21st in ORTG, while the Cavs are 4th despite dealing with injuries a good portion of their roster (including their second best scorer).
I don't know if you're just retarded or won't admit it due to your love for MJ's nuts, but this is irrefutable evidence that Lebron's departure affected his teams much worse than Jordan's.
[QUOTE=3ball]The 2014 Heat were a FAR worse team than the 1993 Bulls, as the 2014 Finals demonstrated.
The 54-win Heat would've BARELY made the playoffs in the West, and accordingly, were beat worse than any team ever in the Finals.. The Heat were a 1st or 2nd Round team out West (and I'm being generous), that fell to a lottery team.
So don't confuse the 2014 Heat going from 1st Round Western Conference equivalency to lottery in 2015, with the 1993 Bulls - the 1993 Bulls three-peated and would've beaten the 2014 Spurs, but fell all the way to the 2nd Round in 1994.. Can you see the difference?[/QUOTE]
the 2014 Heat had the 5th best record in the league and 4th in the West and were 20-10 vs the West, that's a 55-27 pace.
You're literally just making shit up now and saying irrational hypotheticals. Stop it.
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Re: Jordan's help. Wow.
[QUOTE=LootOP]BJ Armstrong? If he kadnt played with MJ, kids like you wouldnt even know he played in the league.[/QUOTE]
His allstar bid was without MJ...based on that it's reasonable to assume he might have had a better career without ever playing with MJ.
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Re: Jordan's help. Wow.
[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]The crazy part is that people like him actually believe that to be an apt comparison lol. He's FAR closer to Sefalosha's defense than prime Martin's offense in '96-'98.[/QUOTE]
In what way is it not. Martin was a 20ppg scorer in his prime, and Harper just came off a 20/6/5 season. More rounded than Martin ever was.
An absolutely beasty defender to begin with, and then you tell him to just fit in on offense, and give his absolute all on defense? Come on... lol.
Put Jimmy Butler on the Spurs and tell him to just focus on D again. :oldlol:
You sit here and pretend as if people can't remember the type of offensive threat Harper was prior to the Bulls.
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Re: Jordan's help. Wow.
[QUOTE=plowking]He came off a 20/6/5 season prior to joining the Bulls...
All that changed on the Bulls was that he was used as one of the primary defenders.
Jordan literally had the ability to sit and rest on the worst opposing player on defense, so he could just have all his energy for offense.[/QUOTE]
That must be why he picked up Miller in the 98 ECFs then. Genius:applause:
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Re: Jordan's help. Wow.
[QUOTE=Mr Feeny]That must be why he picked up Miller in the 98 ECFs then. Genius:applause:[/QUOTE]
Clearly exceptions to the rule are not allowed when making a general statement.
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Re: Jordan's help. Wow.
How have you just decided that picking up the second best shooting guard in basketball is "the exception"?
You haven't watched a minute of 90's basketball of if you believe that. This is precisely why everyone on here is laughing at you.
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Re: Jordan's help. Wow.
[QUOTE=3ball]3-peat, GOAT chemistry
you guys are [B]incompetant[/B][/QUOTE]
[IMG]https://i.imgflip.com/w9ulm.jpg[/IMG]
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Re: Jordan's help. Wow.
[QUOTE=plowking]Jordan literally had the ability to sit and rest on the worst opposing player on defense, so he could just have all his energy for offense.[/QUOTE]
Give some examples. When was Harper doing all this work that allowed MJ to coast defensively? Cause I remember MJ defending Gary Payton, Allan Houston, Jerry Stackhouse, Nick Anderson, Steve Smith and Rod Strickland just in the late 90's alone. Not to mention chasing guys like Reggie Miller, Eddie Jones and Rex Chapman around screens and doing work against guys like Grant Hill and Penny Hardaway in spots. Doesn't seem like resting to me.
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Re: Jordan's help. Wow.
[QUOTE=Mr Feeny]That must be why he picked up Miller in the 98 ECFs then. Genius:applause:[/QUOTE]
"Mooove, bitch! Get out the way! Get out the way bitch! Get out the way!" [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbL5U3MUzWA[/url]
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Re: Jordan's help. Wow.
Biggest quarter of the season and MJ shut down Reggie Miller (0 points in the 4th). 35 years old and he put in work to save the season.
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPlPNDXkIYk[/url]
Resting on defense... :oldlol: