Remember when 34-35 year old MJ was more dominant than 2000 Shaq?

.
[SIZE="5"]Jordan's 1991-1993 versus Shaq's 2000-2002:
[/SIZE]

[COLOR="Navy"][I]Rebounds/Assists cancel out... So do Steals/Blocks and FG/FT%.
[/COLOR]


[B]REGULAR SEASON[/B]

MJ:[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 31.4 ppg.. 58.2% ts.. 122 ORtg.. 0.288 WS/48.. 3 All-Defense [COLOR="Green"]1st[/COLOR] Team.. 2 MVP
Shaq: 28.6 ppg.. 58.0% ts.. 115 ORtg.. 0.264 WS/48.. 2 All-Defense [COLOR="Red"]2nd[/COLOR] Team.. 1 MVP


[B]PLAYOFFS[/B]

MJ:[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 33.7 ppg.. 57.2% ts.. 120 ORtg.. 0.267 WS/48
Shaq: 29.9 ppg.. 56.2% ts.. 113 ORtg.. 0.238 WS/48


[B]FINALS[/B]

MJ:[COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] 36.3 ppg.. 52.6% fg.. 84.3% ft.. played[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] #5, #3, #9 defenses.. [COLOR="Green"]beat Magic-Drexler-Barkley[/COLOR]
Shaq: 35.9 ppg.. 59.5% fg.. 50.6% ft.. played #13, #5, #1 defenses.. [COLOR="Red"]beat Miller-Iverson-Kidd[/COLOR]



[COLOR="Navy"]The relevant stats are shown above and MJ beats Shaq ACROSS THE BOARD[/I][/COLOR]


[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/LXkZUhv.gif[/IMG].

[B]Pippen 4th in PER the season MJ left. Thats how good Pippen was without Jordan (not to mention Defensive All Teamer Horace Grant). Jordan was the most protected superstar of his era. You couldnt even touch him or it was a foul.[/B]

[QUOTE=3ball]


[B]Can you explain your analysis as it relates to [I][SIZE="3"]assists[/SIZE][/I] - it looks like your parameters EXCLUDE assists[/B]

And it's no surprise that your parameters say Jordan's 1989 is the most dominant season ever - in 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without MJ's 33/8/8/54... So that Bulls' roster WAS a lottery roster - without MJ, they would've been lottery heading into 1990 season, instead of ECF veterans and 1 season away from beginning 3-peat...

MJ led a lottery roster (1989 roster) to a 3-peat (it was the same roster).. NO ONE ELSE IN HISTORY DID THIS (led the same lottery roster to championship)- everyone else got help: Bird added McHale and Parish in 1981, the same year he won his first ring... Magic had Kareem from the get-go... the 1996 Lakers were 53-win, 4-seed before Shaq team-hopped in 1997... Spurs were #1 seed in 1996 before Robinson was injured in 1997 and Duncan was added in 1998... etc, etc, etc


[/QUOTE]
[B]jongib369 - any response to the question in bold above?

It looks like your parameters excludes assists - obviously, their inclusion would make MJ's 1997 > Shaq's 2000.[/B]

you said something about asterisk means assisting 3's or something - but it isn't clear - it seems like you should've just included assists in with the other stats like pts and rebounds.

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]Pippen 4th in PER the season MJ left. Thats how good Pippen was without Jordan (not to mention Defensive All Teamer Horace Grant). Jordan was the most protected superstar of his era. You couldnt even touch him or it was a foul.[/B][/QUOTE]

[img]http://media.masslive.com/breakingnews/photo/2011/07/9841665-large.jpg[/img]

[img]http://sneakerbardetroit.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/michael-jordan-mgm-grand-fight.jpg[/img]

guys all over the league got technical fouls for that jordan never did.

[QUOTE=Round Mound]

[B]Pippen 4th in PER the season MJ left. Thats how good Pippen was without Jordan

(not to mention Defensive All Teamer Horace Grant).[/B]

[/QUOTE]
Pippen played to full capacity alongside Jordan - his stats were exactly the same without Jordan (22.0/8.7/5.6 in 1994) compared to with Jordan (21.0/7.1/7.0 in 1992... or 19/8/6 in 1993).

Regarding Jordan's PF - Jordan won 6 rings without an all-star PF and 4 rings without an all-defense PF (Rodman didn't make all-nba defense in 1997 or 1998)..


[QUOTE=Round Mound]

That's how good they were without Jordan

[/QUOTE]
We know the Bulls' 6th best record in 1994 wasn't due to 6th best talent - Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong were [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12087908&postcount=239]nowhere near[/url] top 6 among the league's second and third options, while Pippen wasn't top 6 among the league's first options (Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Malone, Barkley, Alonzo 22/10 and 3 blk, and more).

Their NON-top 6 talent proves their top 6 record was due to chemistry and know-how, specifically 3-peat chemistry and know-how from winning 3 straight championships.. Again, they didn't have anywhere near top 6 talent to support their top 6 record.

[I][COLOR="Navy"]Look - I'm not making this shit up about chemistry - hear it from the Bulls' own mouths - this is from interviews in [B]2016[/B]:[/COLOR][/I]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptKLUpw7Z58&t=2m05s[/url]
.

[QUOTE=3ball][B]Explain your analysis as it relates to assists - it looks like your parameters EXCLUDE assists[/B]

And it's no surprise that your parameters say Jordan's 1989 is the most dominant season ever - in 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without MJ's 33/8/8/54... So that Bulls' roster WAS a lottery roster - without MJ, they would've been lottery heading into 1990 season, instead of ECF veterans and 1 season away from beginning 3-peat...

MJ led a lottery roster (1989 roster) to a 3-peat (it was the same roster).. NO ONE ELSE IN HISTORY DID THIS (led the same lottery roster to championship)- everyone else got help: Bird added McHale and Parish in 1981, the same year he won his first ring... Magic had Kareem from the get-go... the 1996 Lakers were 53-win, 4-seed before Shaq team-hopped in 1997... Spurs were #1 seed in 1996 before Robinson was injured in 1997 and Duncan was added in 1998... etc, etc, etc[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure yet if it was the most dominant ever, totaled up the way I did anyways... I suspect one of Wilts higher scoring seasons might get that nod, but the fact that a Guard is even remotely close with the advantage they have with rebounds is insane. In posting this I was not intending to bring down MJ, just to show one way I look at things.

PRF=Points responsible for, Points+Points scored off Assists they dished out. For MJ's 97 season(The earliest season I can do this for, as far as I know), I looked at his advanced assist data and found of his 4.29 assists per game(4.30 bballreference), 1.06 of them were an assist that led to a 3.

So that's 6.46 points from assisted 2's, 3.18 for 3's. So in total with his own, that's a PRF of 39.25

I realize this doesn't account for an and 1, but it's still a neat stat to look at.


Here's the data from the thread I originally made it for about Steph Curry

[QUOTE=jongib369](Info will be updated as new information comes. Feel free to correct, or contribute with different players.)

PRF= Points+points from assists.

Any names with an * next to it is adjusted for assists that led to a 3 per game. Any stats from this season doesn't include the very last game the played(Missing stats from Currys game against Spurs)

In order from what I've gathered so far



Tiny 73- 56.8

Wilt 62- 55.2

Oscar 62- 53.6

Oscar 66- 53.5

Oscar 64- 53.4 | Oscar 65- 53.4

Oscar 67- 51.9

Wilt 63- 51.6

Oscar 61- 49.9

*LeBron 10- 49.6

Oscar 68- 48.6

Jordan in 89- 48.5

Magic 87- 48.3

*[B]Curry PER36 16- 48.2[/B]

Magic 89- 48.1

*Paul 09- 47.67

*Paul 08-47.63

Baylor in 62- 47.5

*Wade 09- 47.18

Wilt 64- 46.9

*LeBron 08- 46.71

Jordan 87- 46.3

Stockton 90- 46.2 | West 70- 46.2

*Kobe 06- 45.83

*[B]Curry 16- 45.6[/B]

*Nash 07-45.41

West 72- 45.2

*Tmac 06- 44.67

*Durant 14- 44.39

Oscar 69- 44.3

Kareem 72- 44

*Harden 15-43.81

Bird 87- 43.3

*Wall 16- 42.35

Wilt in 68- 41.5

*Curry 14- 41

*LeBron 16- 40.29

*Jordan 97- 39.24

*Shaq 00- 38.11

*Stockton 97-36.42[/QUOTE]

In the 89 playoffs MJ's PRF was 50

Jordan playing PG for 24 games in 89- 47.1

48.5 for the entire season

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]The guy has done the exact same posts, 14 times a day, every day, non-stop, holidays included, for two years.

And has literally zero sense of humor.:lol[/QUOTE]

Has to be aspergers

[QUOTE=jongib369]

In the 89 playoffs MJ's PRF was 50

Jordan playing PG for 24 games in 89- 47.1

48.5 for the entire season

[/QUOTE]
So in the modern era, Jordan's 1989 is #1, since it isn't adjusted for assists that led to 3-pointers, while Lebron's 2010 is.

And ALL the current players are overstated in this regard compared to 80's and 90's players through 1996.

Also, players that score a far higher proportion of their team's points attract more attention, which leads to less attention paid to teammates.. We don't have stats that measure the lesser attention paid to teammates, but we do have stats for proportion of team points scored while on the floor, and 34/35 year old MJ is #1 all-time in that area...

If only we had that data for his prime - considering that old MJ scored literally 45-50% of his team's points in playoffs and Finals while on the floor, this figure was very likely 60-70% or more in his prime - he's simply THE most dominant player ever, particularly in the postseason.

[QUOTE=3ball]So in the modern era, Jordan's 1989 is #1, since it isn't adjusted for assists that led to 3-pointers, while Lebron's 2010 is.

And ALL the current players are overstated in this regard compared to 80's and 90's players through 1996.

Also, players that score a far higher proportion of their team's points attract more attention, which leads to less attention paid to teammates.. We don't have stats that measure the lesser attention paid to teammates, but we do have stats for proportion of team points scored while on the floor, and 34/35 year old MJ is #1 all-time in that area...

If only we had that data for his prime - considering that old MJ scored literally 45-50% of his team's points in playoffs and Finals while on the floor, this figure was very likely 60-70% or more in his prime - he's simply THE most dominant player ever, particularly in the postseason.[/QUOTE]
No doubting MJ's dominance, and the advantage players have today with assisted 3's. Knowing how I calculate it, feel free to post what a few of those modern PRFs would be without it.

Also side question, considering how startling the numbers were for guys like Oscar, Archibald etc...What do you take from it? And if at all, how would you adjust their assists in regards to pace? Considering the rule was at the time 1 step=no assist (I think) was it a natural adjustment for them, or should they be brought down some, but just not to the same extent rebounds are?

[QUOTE=3ball]Pippen played to full capacity alongside Jordan - his stats were exactly the same without Jordan (22.0/8.7/5.6 in 1994) compared to with Jordan (21.0/7.1/7.0 in 1992... or 19/8/6 in 1993).

Regarding Jordan's PF - Jordan won 6 rings without an all-star PF and 4 rings without an all-defense PF (Rodman didn't make all-nba defense in 1997 or 1998)..



We know the Bulls' 6th best record in 1994 wasn't due to 6th best talent - Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong were [url=http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12087908&postcount=239]nowhere near[/url] top 6 among the league's second and third options, while Pippen wasn't top 6 among the league's first options (Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Malone, Barkley, Alonzo 22/10 and 3 blk, and more).

Their NON-top 6 talent proves their top 6 record was due to chemistry and know-how, specifically 3-peat chemistry and know-how from winning 3 straight championships.. Again, they didn't have anywhere near top 6 talent to support their top 6 record.

[I][COLOR="Navy"]Look - I'm not making this shit up about chemistry - hear it from the Bulls' own mouths - this is from interviews in [B]2016[/B]:[/COLOR][/I]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptKLUpw7Z58&t=2m05s[/url]
.[/QUOTE]

[B]Explain to me how the best players team had a player next to him that was the 4th best overall player in the league without the best player in the league? :confusedshrug: I consider MJ the best player ever but man did he have help compared to other superstar of the 90s. Without Jordan the Bulls where a 55 win team. End of discussion.[/B]

Peak Shaq's impact went way beyond the numbers. Anyone who understands the game and saw him play knows this, as does anyone who coached or played against him. He was the biggest mismatch in NBA history and basically impossible to game plan for. His presence on the court affected the game more than any single player in history. He completely controlled the paint on both ends. The old cliche "you can't stop him, only hope to contain him" didn't apply to peak Shaq because he couldn't be contained.

It's not as if he was just a big body either. People tend to forget how good of a basketball player he was. He was athletic, highly skilled, and highly intelligent. He had great hands, was a great passer, and understood how to make the right basketball play. The latter is what separated his prime/peak from his Orlando and early LA years. It's absurd to suggest that 34-35 year old Jordan had anywhere near the impact of 3-peat Shaq.

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]Explain to me how the best players team had a player next to him that was the 4th best overall player in the league without the best player in the league? :confusedshrug: I consider MJ the best player ever but man did he have help compared to other superstar of the 90s. Without Jordan the Bulls where a 55 win team. End of discussion.[/B][/QUOTE]

:facepalm

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]Explain to me how the best players team had a player next to him that was the 4th best overall player in the league without the best player in the league? :confusedshrug: I consider MJ the best player ever but man did he have help compared to other superstar of the 90s. Without Jordan the Bulls where a 55 win team. End of discussion.[/B][/QUOTE]

Indisputable.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]Explain to me how the best players team had a player next to him that was the 4th best overall player in the league without the best player in the league? :confusedshrug: I consider MJ the best player ever but man did he have help compared to other superstar of the 90s. Without Jordan the Bulls where a 55 win team. End of discussion.[/B][/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/QQGdpWH.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Indisputable.

:applause: :applause: :applause:[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=jongib369]Any names with an * next to it is adjusted for assists that led to a 3 per game.

[B]*SHAQ 00[/B] PRF- 38.11 FG% .574 (21.1 FGA)
Blocks- 3
Steals-0.5
Rebounds- 13.6
Fouled-10.4
Free Throws made- 5.5

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.)
Total 1= 71.11
Total 2=60.71
Total 3=55.21

[B]*Jordan 97[/B] PRF-39.24-- FG%.486 (23.1 FGA)
Blocks- 0.5
Steals-1.7
Rebounds-5.9
Fouled-7
Free Throws made-5.9

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.
Total 1=60.24
Total 2=53.24
Total 3=47.34

[B]Jordan 89[/B] PRF- 48.5-- FG% .538 (24.0 FGA)
Blocks- 0.8
Steals-2.9
Rebounds-8
Fouled-9.8
Free Throws made-8.3

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.)
Total 1=78.3
Total 2=68.5
Total 3=60.2

[B]Wilt 67[/B] PRF- 41.5-- FG% .683 (14.2 FGA)
Blocks- NA
Steals-NA
Rebounds-24.2
Fouled-10.8
Free Throws made-4.8

(Total 1 all. Total 2 without FTA. Total 3 without any free throw data.)
Total 1=81.3
Total 2=70.5
Total 3=65.7

Wilts totals if he maxed out at Denis Rodmans rebounds in 97 16.1/Dennis max 18.7

Total 1=73.2/75.8
Total 2= 62.4/65
Total 3= 57.6/60.2

Should FG% be added into the calculation somehow? Note Wilt in 67 Would technically be further ahead if Blocks/Steals Data was available, even with adjusted stats for everything but Points/Assists. He would get his 14.2 Attempts, and assist rules of the time might of been a natural adjustment for the higher pace.

89 MJ :bowdown:

He was probably his best in 91, but we know stats can only tell so much. Still interesting IMO[/QUOTE]

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