Hakeem the Dream vs Tim Duncan

[QUOTE=Dynasty]You guys are clearly not taking into account Hakeem Olajuwon's clutch factor v Tim Duncan's. How quickly some forget how Tim would and still does now at times clank those key free throws circa 2000-2004 versus LA Lakers although they won it all in 2003. Hakeem would Dream Shake Timmy while Timmy would Funda"mentally" do Olajuwon.[/QUOTE]

Point taken and I think you mistakenly gave the upper hand to Tim Duncan in your end statement because that's who I would take in a heartbeat. Tim Duncan

Whoever thinks these 2 guys are not close is just plain retarded. The fact is Hakeem and Duncan are very similar statisticly and accomplishment wise. You can't go wrong with either, and they should be ranked anywhere from 8-12 of all time.

[QUOTE=poeticism707]Sorry guys, but as great a player as Hakeem is, its not close. Lets review the scorecard:

Titles: Hakeem 2, Duncan 3
Finals MVPs: Hakeem 2, Duncan 3
MVPs: Hakeem 1, Duncan 2
DPOY: Hakeem 2, Duncan 0
First team all NBA: Hakeem 6, Duncan 9
first team all defense: Hakeem 5, Duncan 7

Hakeem Career: 21.8 ppg, 11.1rpg, 2.5apg, 3.1bpg
Duncan: 21.8ppg, 11.9rpg, 3.2apg, 2.4bpg

The only only awards Hakeem has the Duncan doesn't is DPOY, but Duncan already has 2 more first team defense selections, and of the fact that Duncan should easily have multiple DPOY awards by now. Duncan may win his 4th title and 4th MVP in only his 10th year. Again, Hakeem is a great player, but its not close. Tim Duncan is already greater.

One of the excuses I DO NOT want to hear for Hakeem: "Hakeem didn't win more titles because of Jordan." Same as Barkley (except once) Hakeem was in the West, Mike in the East, and they never met in the Finals. Meaning it wasn't Jordan eliminating Hakeem year after year. He is a great player, but there are no "Jordan" excuses for why he didn't win more.[/QUOTE]


Duncan has played 10 years. Lets takes Hakeem's stats for his first 11 years. (You could do the first 13 if you want to)

Hakeem 24 Points 12.4 Rebounds 3.6 Blocks 2.5 Assists 1.9 Steals
Duncan 21.8 Points 11.9 Rebounds 2.4 Blocks 3.2 Assists .8

Your right it is not even close by your own criteria.

You are accounting career stats when Hakeem played 17 years. He injured himself in 97-98, then came the strike season, then for three years he played 20 minutes a game as an old man ending with Toronto. This is the only reason their stats are close.

Hakeem dominates individual stats for the same career length so far and if Duncan playes seven more years Hakeems full career stats will dominate again.

There is absolutely nothing Duncan does better then Hakeem except low post passing.

Hakeem better man to man defender
Hakeem better low post moves.
Hakeem better scorer.
Hakeem better handles.
Hakeem better range on jumper.
Hakeem better free throw shooter.
Hakeem better off the ball blocker.

Duncan is no more of a Power Forward then Hakeem is a Power Forward.

Garnett and Duncan are both Power Forwards. Yet they were both on All NBA First Team in 2003-2004. If you choose only one then Duncan is out and on the second team. If Hakeem was allowed to be placed as a center or on either forward spots his first 13 years like they do with players now. (Amare, two Power Forwards at the Forward Position etc...) he would have had 10 or 11 All NBA first teams in his first 13 years.

Duncan 4 Finals 3 Wins Still Pending 4
Hakeem 3 Finals 2 Wins

Even with Jordan retired the road to Hakeems two championships where harder then any road Duncan has ever taken. The Nets in the finals.:oldlol: Strike season with Ewing hurt.:oldlol: The Cavaliers.:oldlol:

In 94-95 Hakeem beat the four teams with the best records in the NBA.

Prime Hakeem is vastly superior to Duncan.
Career Hakeem is a notch above Duncan.

Championships define individual careers by grabbing at least two and being able to carry your team to one practically by yourself. When you start stacking them up it becomes about era, team and who you play. For this reason. Bill Russell will never be better then Jordan and Duncan will never be better then Hakeem even if he wins 6 titles.

[QUOTE=D-Town-Raised]Duncan has played 10 years. Lets takes Hakeem's stats for his first 11 years. (You could do the first 13 if you want to)

Hakeem 24 Points 12.4 Rebounds 3.6 Blocks 2.5 Assists 1.9 Steals
Duncan 21.8 Points 11.9 Rebounds 2.4 Blocks 3.2 Assists .8

Your right it is not even close by your own criteria.

You are accounting career stats when Hakeem played 17 years. He injured himself in 97-98, then came the strike season, then for three years he played 20 minutes a game as an old man ending with Toronto. This is the only reason their stats are close.

Hakeem dominates individual stats for the same career length so far and if Duncan playes seven more years Hakeems full career stats will dominate again.

There is absolutely nothing Duncan does better then Hakeem except low post passing.

Hakeem better man to man defender
Hakeem better low post moves.
Hakeem better scorer.
Hakeem better handles.
Hakeem better range on jumper.
Hakeem better free throw shooter.
Hakeem better off the ball blocker.

Duncan is no more of a Power Forward then Hakeem is a Power Forward.

Garnett and Duncan are both Power Forwards. Yet they were both on All NBA First Team in 2003-2004. If you choose only one then Duncan is out and on the second team. If Hakeem was allowed to be placed as a center or on either forward spots his first 13 years like they do with players now. (Amare, two Power Forwards at the Forward Position etc...) he would have had 10 or 11 All NBA first teams in his first 13 years.

Duncan 4 Finals 3 Wins Still Pending 4
Hakeem 3 Finals 2 Wins

Even with Jordan retired the road to Hakeems two championships where harder then any road Duncan has ever taken. The Nets in the finals.:oldlol: Strike season with Ewing hurt.:oldlol: The Cavaliers.:oldlol:

In 94-95 Hakeem beat the four teams with the best records in the NBA.

Prime Hakeem is vastly superior to Duncan.
Career Hakeem is a notch above Duncan.

Championships define individual careers by grabbing at least two and being able to carry your team to one practically by yourself. When you start stacking them up it becomes about era, team and who you play. For this reason. Bill Russell will never be better then Jordan and Duncan will never be better then Hakeem even if he wins 6 titles.[/QUOTE]

i absolutely agree. Duncan is a great player but he's not Shaq or Hakeem...

Good post, D-Town. Despite Duncan having more championships, Hakeem's versatility was too much to ignore. It's been said that Duncan and Hakeem's defense was "a push". Not really. Hakeem's reflexes and speed gave him the ability to guard the paint as well as close to the perimeter. Duncan can't do this. Mutombo couldn't do this, Zo couldn't either. That's the main reason I consider Hakeem a better defender than them all. Just count the 100 steal/100 block seasons of Hakeem and compare it to the others'.
And when it comes to the playoffs, just see Olajuwon's numbers from 1986 to 1989 and from 1993 to 1997. Are they supposed to be inferior to Duncan's best ones (2001-03, 2006-07)?

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duncati01.html[/url]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/olajuha01.html[/url]

The only area where I think Duncan is more effective than Hakeem, at least pre-championship Hakeem is the mentality. Olajuwon used to be pretty uncooperative at times, whined to the team for not getting help, even demaned that he be traded. Duncan hasn't faced as many difficulties with his teammates, but even if he had, I don't think he would become as explosive and frustrating to the rest of the team.

[QUOTE=D-Town-Raised]Duncan has played 10 years. Lets takes Hakeem's stats for his first 11 years. (You could do the first 13 if you want to)

Hakeem 24 Points 12.4 Rebounds 3.6 Blocks 2.5 Assists 1.9 Steals
Duncan 21.8 Points 11.9 Rebounds 2.4 Blocks 3.2 Assists .8

Your right it is not even close by your own criteria.

You are accounting career stats when Hakeem played 17 years. He injured himself in 97-98, then came the strike season, then for three years he played 20 minutes a game as an old man ending with Toronto. This is the only reason their stats are close.

Hakeem dominates individual stats for the same career length so far and if Duncan playes seven more years Hakeems full career stats will dominate
again.

There is absolutely nothing Duncan does better then Hakeem except low post passing.

Hakeem better man to man defender
Hakeem better low post moves.
Hakeem better scorer.
Hakeem better handles.
Hakeem better range on jumper.
Hakeem better free throw shooter.
Hakeem better off the ball blocker.

Duncan is no more of a Power Forward then Hakeem is a Power Forward.

Garnett and Duncan are both Power Forwards. Yet they were both on All NBA First Team in 2003-2004. If you choose only one then Duncan is out and on the second team. If Hakeem was allowed to be placed as a center or on either forward spots his first 13 years like they do with players now. (Amare, two Power Forwards at the Forward Position etc...) he would have had 10 or 11 All NBA first teams in his first 13 years.

Duncan 4 Finals 3 Wins Still Pending 4
Hakeem 3 Finals 2 Wins

Even with Jordan retired the road to Hakeems two championships where harder then any road Duncan has ever taken. The Nets in the finals.:oldlol: Strike season with Ewing hurt.:oldlol: The Cavaliers.:oldlol:

In 94-95 Hakeem beat the four teams with the best records in the NBA.

Prime Hakeem is vastly superior to Duncan.
Career Hakeem is a notch above Duncan.

Championships define individual careers by grabbing at least two and being able to carry your team to one practically by yourself. When you start stacking them up it becomes about era, team and who you play. For this reason. Bill Russell will never be better then Jordan and Duncan will never be better then Hakeem even if he wins 6 titles.[/QUOTE]

PWNED :applause:
/THREAD

I agree with that. Hakeem was a live wire early. Ducna is better at passing out of a conventional post play and keeping his cool other then that Hakeem was superior at everything else.

I consider Hakeem the best defensive player ever. He could guard Shaq all game and he could cover point guards on the pick and roll for a good portion of the game as well. Hakeem is a bigger, stronger and more athletic Kevin Garnett. Hakeem had the body size to bang, the ups to block off the ball, the lateral quickness to guard on the perimeter and the hand quickness to strip small forwards.

I don't have Duncan as the greatest Power Forward ever because if Duncan is a Power Forward then I consider Moses Malone and Bill Russell to be Power Forwards as well. I consider Moses Malone the most underrated ever and I would take him over Duncan.

awards and recognizations aside - Hakeem was a better player than Duncan.

And there's no doubts in my mind about it.

:cheers:

[QUOTE=D-Town-Raised]Duncan has played 10 years. Lets takes Hakeem's stats for his first 11 years. (You could do the first 13 if you want to)

Hakeem 24 Points 12.4 Rebounds 3.6 Blocks 2.5 Assists 1.9 Steals
Duncan 21.8 Points 11.9 Rebounds 2.4 Blocks 3.2 Assists .8

Your right it is not even close by your own criteria.

You are accounting career stats when Hakeem played 17 years. He injured himself in 97-98, then came the strike season, then for three years he played 20 minutes a game as an old man ending with Toronto. This is the only reason their stats are close.

Hakeem dominates individual stats for the same career length so far and if Duncan playes seven more years Hakeems full career stats will dominate again.

There is absolutely nothing Duncan does better then Hakeem except low post passing.

Hakeem better man to man defender
Hakeem better low post moves.
Hakeem better scorer.
Hakeem better handles.
Hakeem better range on jumper.
Hakeem better free throw shooter.
Hakeem better off the ball blocker.

Duncan is no more of a Power Forward then Hakeem is a Power Forward.

Garnett and Duncan are both Power Forwards. Yet they were both on All NBA First Team in 2003-2004. If you choose only one then Duncan is out and on the second team. If Hakeem was allowed to be placed as a center or on either forward spots his first 13 years like they do with players now. (Amare, two Power Forwards at the Forward Position etc...) he would have had 10 or 11 All NBA first teams in his first 13 years.

Duncan 4 Finals 3 Wins Still Pending 4
Hakeem 3 Finals 2 Wins

Even with Jordan retired the road to Hakeems two championships where harder then any road Duncan has ever taken. The Nets in the finals.:oldlol: Strike season with Ewing hurt.:oldlol: The Cavaliers.:oldlol:

In 94-95 Hakeem beat the four teams with the best records in the NBA.

Prime Hakeem is vastly superior to Duncan.
Career Hakeem is a notch above Duncan.

Championships define individual careers by grabbing at least two and being able to carry your team to one practically by yourself. When you start stacking them up it becomes about era, team and who you play. For this reason. Bill Russell will never be better then Jordan and Duncan will never be better then Hakeem even if he wins 6 titles.[/QUOTE]

reading this makes me want to take a dump

[QUOTE=beau_boy04]awards and recognizations aside - Hakeem was a better player than Duncan.

And there's no doubts in my mind about it.

:cheers:[/QUOTE]

True I agree...this was a no brainer:rockon:

Could these responses be more subjective? Are we talking about which is the greatest player, or who your favorite pop artist is? Based on adjectives like "Hakeem is faster" (have you timed them in the 40 yard dash
?) and "Hakeem would OWN Duncan" and other such nonsense. The reality is Tim Duncan has rose to be the cream of the crop within his own generation, against the likes of Shaq's Lakers, The Detroit Pistons, (talk about physical), etc., and he has done it more than Hakeem. Titles are objective; accomplishsments are objective; most posters on this thread are not.

[QUOTE=poeticism707]Could these responses be more subjective? Are we talking about which is the greatest player, or who your favorite pop artist is? Based on adjectives like "Hakeem is faster" (have you timed them in the 40 yard dash
?) and "Hakeem would OWN Duncan" and other such nonsense. The reality is Tim Duncan has rose to be the cream of the crop within his own generation, against the likes of Shaq's Lakers, The Detroit Pistons, (talk about physical), etc., and he has done it more than Hakeem. Titles are objective; accomplishsments are objective; most posters on this thread are not.[/QUOTE]

here here:applause:

there is one fool up there saying Hakeem had better range too:hammerhead:

this discussion has fallen to the bottom of the toilet bowl.

[QUOTE=poeticism707]Could these responses be more subjective? Are we talking about which is the greatest player, or who your favorite pop artist is? Based on adjectives like "Hakeem is faster" (have you timed them in the 40 yard dash
?) and "Hakeem would OWN Duncan" and other such nonsense. The reality is Tim Duncan has rose to be the cream of the crop within his own generation, against the likes of Shaq's Lakers, The Detroit Pistons, (talk about physical), etc., and he has done it more than Hakeem. Titles are objective; accomplishsments are objective; most posters on this thread are not.[/QUOTE]

The Dream was quicker and a better defender....hes in the top 5 all time in steals and thats wierd for a big man to be in that category...I like Tim Duncan and I think hes one of the best PF's of all-time but your comparing him to the "Dream" and he was better.

[QUOTE=poeticism707]Could these responses be more subjective? Are we talking about which is the greatest player, or who your favorite pop artist is? Based on adjectives like "Hakeem is faster" (have you timed them in the 40 yard dash
?) and "Hakeem would OWN Duncan" and other such nonsense. The reality is Tim Duncan has rose to be the cream of the crop within his own generation, against the likes of Shaq's Lakers, The Detroit Pistons, (talk about physical), etc., and he has done it more than Hakeem. Titles are objective; accomplishsments are objective; most posters on this thread are not.[/QUOTE]

The same Hakeem who beat the 85-86 L.A. Lakers 4 games to 1. Those same Lakers who would beat any team Duncan ever played on in 5 games? Then met the 85-86 Celtics a top ten team all time and played a close 6 game series.

The same Hakeem who has better stats for his first 13 years compared to Duncans first 10 in every category except assists?

The same Hakeem who beat the best three centers in the game to win his titles.

The same Hakeem who won back to back something Duncan hasn't done.

The same Hakeem who beat the 4 best Teams in the NBA record wise while outplaying Robinson and Shaq.

The same Duncan who was swept by the Lakers as the number 1 seed? And Blown out by 30 points two games in a row?

The same Duncan who was beaten 4-1 by the Lakers when he was the MVP?

The same Duncan who if he wouldn't have been injured and had Robinson by his side would have had Shaq put up 37 and 15 on both of them in 99-00?

The same Duncan who lost again in 2003-2004.

The same Duncan who benfited from a strike plagued season? Then met the Ewingless Knicks in the Finals?

The same Duncan who played an unworthy Mavs team in the conference finals with Dirk missing most of the series then met the Nets in the Finals?

The physical Pistons who where 5 times less physical then the 93-94 Knicks with Oakley, Mason and Hand Check Harper?

The Same Duncan who met the Jazz because of an upset?

[QUOTE=D-Town-Raised]Duncan has played 10 years. Lets takes Hakeem's stats for his first 11 years. (You could do the first 13 if you want to)

Hakeem 24 Points 12.4 Rebounds 3.6 Blocks 2.5 Assists 1.9 Steals
Duncan 21.8 Points 11.9 Rebounds 2.4 Blocks 3.2 Assists .8

Your right it is not even close by your own criteria....[/QUOTE]
You know your post is dead on the money when those that disagree with it completely ignore it. :roll:

:cheers: