is Jokic a top 10 player in the NBA?

[QUOTE=tontoz]So what? If they were in LA or NY people would be going nuts over them. Advanced stats don't care where a player plays.[/QUOTE]
:biggums:

When i look at those advanced stats one thing that stands out to me is the number of bigs is higher than i would have expected on the +/- and winshares. VORP seems more guard friendly.

[QUOTE=tontoz]We know where you stand. Missing games doesn't matter and advanced stats don't matter. Only the eye test matters.[/QUOTE]

Where does Rudy Gobert rank then because I don’t think many here have him top 15. Yet advanced stats suggest he is. Towns is not even considered as a top 10 player. Yet advanced stats suggest he is. Guess I’m too old school where eye test and basic stats tend to outweigh advanced. I really don’t think I’ve argued or experienced any arguments where someone pulled out VORP on me.

[QUOTE=GOBB]Where does Rudy Gobert rank then because I don’t think many here have him top 15. Yet advanced stats suggest he is. Towns is not even considered as a top 10 player. Yet advanced stats suggest he is. Guess I’m too old school where eye test and basic stats tend to outweigh advanced. I really don’t think I’ve argued or experienced any arguments where someone pulled out VORP on me.[/QUOTE]


The only reason I quoted all those advanced stats is because KBlaze questioned the value of RPM.

You can't even acknowledge that missing games decreases a players value. Replace Jokic with Embiid or Davis and Denver doesn't make the playoffs.

Philly has 4, maybe 5 players better than Murray but Denver won more games with the 4th youngest team in the NBA.

Not every advanced stat will value players the same way. But when you look at all of them a clear picture emerges.

If Towns was putting up 24/12 with a 62% TS in NY don't you think he would be ranked a lot higher on here?

[QUOTE=tontoz]The only reason I quoted all those advanced stats is because KBlaze questioned the value of RPM.

You can't even acknowledge that missing games decreases a players value. Replace Jokic with Embiid or Davis and Denver doesn't make the playoffs.

Philly has 4, maybe 5 players better than Murray but Denver won more games with the 4th youngest team in the NBA.

Not every advanced stat will value players the same way. But when you look at all of them a clear picture emerges.

If Towns was putting up 24/12 with a 62% TS in NY don't you think he would be ranked a lot higher on here?[/QUOTE]

That

Denver absolutely isn't a playoff team without Jokic this season. Which is why he's underrated. All the injuries we had? We might have lost the most games to injuries. At one point we were down 3 starters.

Not to mention our entire offense is built around Jokic in a way that's never really been seen before. Embiid/Davis could make Denver's defense better, and even score as much, but we play team basketball we tons of movement and Jokic makes everyone's better.

Should check out Denver's numbers/individual players with and without Jokic on the floor.

Murray's breaking out and IMO he has the potential to be a star guard but he had consistently issues all season long. Millsap missed games, Harris missed games and was rusty alot of the time he played. Barton missed games and still isn't 100% even now.

[QUOTE=GOBB]That’s absolutely ridiculous to say. Embiid has carried the Sixers to the playoffs and him not playing is noticeable especially defensively. To think he couldn’t carry the Nuggets to the playoffs is laughable. Denver is a playoff team with either Davis or Jokic.

Portland has won more games than the Sixers.

And no if Towns was doing that in NY he wouldn’t be ranked high on here. It would be a bunch of empty stats threads made. If towns did those stats and won then he would be ranked higher. Much like Jokic is now.[/QUOTE]

:oldlol:

How is Denver winning games with Embiid glued to the bench? You think Murray is going to carry them to wins?

Get real. He played 63 games. Jokic played 80. How many games would Denver win during those 17 games Embiid misses?

Davis played only 56. Denver would have absolutely no chance of making the playoffs with Davis.

[QUOTE=tontoz]:oldlol:

How is Denver winning games with Embiid glued to the bench? You think Murray is going to carry them to wins?

Get real. He played 63 games. Jokic played 80. How many games would Denver win during those 17 games Embiid misses?

Davis played only 56. Denver would have absolutely no chance of making the playoffs with Davis.[/QUOTE]

You can take this argument and apply it to Rudy Gobert and Utah. He played 80 games as well. Rudy in Denver and they are playoffs. Embiid/Davis in Denver and they are not. Conclusion is what? You want to isolate this season and games played? That’s fine. It doesn’t change the impact both Embiid and Davis have on their respective teams which is why they suffer when they aren’t on the floor. Clearly health is always a concern for any player. But I’m pretty sure Denver GM if they didn’t have Jokic would feel the same about Embiid and Davis as you do as far as them not being good enough to take them to the playoffs. Why else is Davis a heavily sought player in the league? Why else is Davis value high as far as trades are concerned?

So yeah Davis 56 games this season Denver doesn’t make playoffs. What point that proves I’m not sure. Doesn’t change a thing in terms of Davis being considered better as Jokic. It just something you want to use in why you have him higher. Which is fine. Jokic is just 3rd on my list no matter how you slice it.

Anthony Davis wasnt really hurt much this year. They shut him down at the end and he had a couple of those modern bullshit back to back night load management DNPs. That little stretch he was out before the ASG started 3 days before the trade request leak. I suspect it wasnt by chance. He was "out" for a couple weeks during a trade demand frenzy with a sprained finger. I think we all know what happened there. 12 of his missed games were after they decided to limit his play/shut him down to end the year and almost all the rest were during the trade talks. Think its by chance a sprained finger keeps a guy out while hes being bashed non step for 2 weeks of trade speculation after his demand leaks?

Anyway....

[QUOTE]I think the best players in the NBA are fairly represented by these stats.[/QUOTE]

The best players in the NBA are gonna be on any list of the things we track where the positive ones are added up with points removed for losing and negative stats.

Theres no way to combine all the numbers we have and leave out the best players because the numbers are designed to track the good things that happen. Doesnt mean they tell you who plays basketball the best among the good players.

I understand that you place great importance in them but you have to know when speaking to people who dont you just end up fighting about the validity of the number and not really talking ball at all.

That something youre looking forward to doing again?

I dont know that we have much more ground to cover on the issue.

[QUOTE=GOBB]Conclusion is what? You want to isolate this season and games played? That’s fine. [/QUOTE]

This season? Davis and Embiid have been in the league a combined 12 seasons. Davis has missed 108 games, Embid 252, unless I counted wrong. Availability is part of a players value. Not arguable.

[QUOTE]What point that proves I’m not sure. Doesn’t change a thing in terms of Davis being considered better as Jokic. It just something you want to use in why you have him higher. Which is fine. Jokic is just 3rd on my list no matter how you slice it.[/QUOTE]

So the eye test means more than advanced stats and actually playing in games.

OK

When you see so many bigs in the top 20 of these advanced stats, with Embiid only showing up once at 19, that should tell you something.

[QUOTE]When you see so many bigs in the top 20 of these advanced stats, with Embiid only showing up once at 19, that should tell you something.[/QUOTE]


Id imagine it tells him the same thing it would tell every team in the NBA.....all of them with advanced stats people....

And that is that the advanced stats are wrong.

Every single team would see them....then conclude that Embiid is elite anyway and try to get him to take their 200 million dollars.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]talking ball at all.
[/QUOTE]

I've been thinking about this lately and curious to know your opinion but is Jokic the first legit point C of all-time? Not just from a passing stand point but his role, touches, ability combined.

How many C's have handled the ball in the P&R? Bring the ball up the court at times. He's out here throwing no look passes, passing between guys legs, hitting cutters, outlet passes, passing out of the pick and roll. He even occasionally will drive and kick. There's not a pass a PG makes, that Jokic can't.

We've obviously seen big men who are amazing passers. Teams have built offense's around it. C-Webb, Divac, list could go on. Even to a degree players like Blake/Cousins and Gasol on the Grizzles have handled playmaking duties.n offense around that. Wilt is the only guy to average more assists I believe but from my understanding it was more because he was such a dominant scorer that from all the attention he got he'd pass out it out of the post/hit cutters. He at no point was bringing the ball up or running the same kinda sets that Jokic would be. I know Sabonis would match Jokic in terms of the the skilled/flashy passes for alot of people but it's not like he was playing PG. I don't know enough about his career oversea's but in the NBA anyways.

There was a play during the regular season where Plumlee/Jokic ran the pick and roll and Jokic hit him for an alley oop. It was wild watching two C's run that kinda play.

Alvin Adams and before him Maurice Stokes did some point center but not the way Jokic does because their sets were so different. Far as someone center sized who can play that way?

Lamar Odom I suppose. Odom was 6'10'' 240 when he filled out and he had better handles and could make all the passes. A rookie Odom dropped into today could as easily become a Jokic style 5 as a Simmons style point.

There arent many though.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]Id imagine it tells him the same thing it would tell every team in the NBA.....all of them with advanced stats people....

And that is that the advanced stats are wrong.

Every single team would see them....then conclude that Embiid is elite anyway and try to get him to take their 200 million dollars.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. Same with Anthony Davis.

LMAO front offices are notorious for giving out bad contracts. The wizards have been run by an incompetent buffoon for 14 years, and this is the third team he has run.

Is Westbrook worth his contact? Wall wasn't worth his deal even before he got hurt. I could go on all day but what's the point?

When someone dismisses all advanced stats because they don't match up with their opinions that tells me all I need to know.