1994 Pippen should have been mvp

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14028098]Yup! :rockon:

It is bizarre. You could argue Ewing was better career wise or peak versus peak but they are contesting literally Pippen's peak years of 1994-1996. Their accolades tell the tale.

[U]1994[/U]

Pippen: 1st team all-NBA, 390 MVP votes, 7 first place votes (3rd in MVP)
Ewing: no all-NBA, 255 MVP votes, 1 first place vote (5th in MVP)

[U]1995[/U]

Pippen: 1st team all-NBA, 83 MVP votes, 1 first place vote (7th in MVP)
Ewing: no all-NBA, 230 MVP votes, 1 first place vote (4th in MVP)

[U]1996[/U]

Pippen: 1st team all-NBA, 226 MVP votes (5th in MVP)
Ewing: no all-NBA, no MVP votes (even Rodman and Terrell Brandon got votes)

Pippen was better in 95' and 96' than even these suggest. His MVP voting was dragged down by MJ coming back in 95' (which obscured him leading his team in every category--no stats doe). In 96' his stats were much better 2/3 through the season before he started having injury problems. If he stayed healthy he probably finishes 3rd. At any rate, if a "sidekick" is top 5 in MVP that is rare and speaks volumes.

1994-1996 VORP: Pippen 19.9, Ewing 12.1
1994-1996 BPM: Pippen 7.2, Ewing 3.5
1994-1996 PER: Pippen 22.2, Ewing 21.9
1994-1996 WS: Pippen 35.3, Ewing 29.4
1994-1996 TS %: Pippen 55.1%, Ewing 54.1% (a center lower?!)

How about covering 1992-1997? Both players were at an all-NBA level at the front and back end of this time frame.

1992-1997 VORP: Pippen 37.1, Ewing 25.1
1992-1997 BPM: Pippen 6.2, Ewing 3.6
1992-1997 PER: Ewing 21.8, Pippen 21.4
1992-1997 WS: Pippen 69.6, Ewing 62.8
1992-1997 TS %: Ewing 54.7%, Pippen 54.6%

Pippen has the clear edge again. When Pippen is ahead it is by a lot; when Ewing is ahead he noses ahead.

[B][U]Keep in mind Pippen's stats were deflated by playing with MJ. It is no coincidence his two best statistical years were 1994 and 1995[/U][/B]. Ewing, though, played in a context designed to maximize his stats.[/QUOTE]

:applause:

[QUOTE]The thing is no one gave Ewing even the time of day for MVP voting that year despite the fact that he had a better team record than Pippen, better individual stats than Pippen, led the Knicks to a better team defence than Pippen, and then beat Pippen in the playoffs while outplaying him in that series to boot.

So how the f**k then is Pippen somehow moving to the head of the line past not only Ewing, but Shaq too who was doing things Wilt and Kareem couldn't even do, lol. He wasn't one of the 4 best players in the league that year.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=RRR3;14028080]What are you going by, PPG and RPG? Pippen was significantly better in BPM, which is a far better measure. I like how you said Ewing was better every year in the 90's when Pippen was CLEARLY better in 1996.

[U]1996 stats[/U]

:roll:[/QUOTE]

Were talking about 1994 here dude. Pat hat tricked pippen. Beat him H2H as a first option by every measure.

:facepalm

Pippen just got more exposure because the Bulls drew GOAT ratings and NY was seen as a dirty goon team.

Pippen will forever be the greatest number 2 player ever.

[QUOTE=Soundwave;14027999] But at least the Knicks had a shot at winning the title, which I would take every day of the week over getting bounced in the 2nd round.[/QUOTE]

Bingo.

Ewing totally outplayed pippen too. Took less shots to score more points and was leading a #1 defense. Better on both ends.

THAT is what you would see if scottie and pat had similar help and went H2H. Ewing was that much better.

If Kukoc misses that shot, Pippen is getting shit on 100 fold more.

[QUOTE=tpols;14028103]Were talking about 1994 here dude. Pat hat tricked pippen. Beat him H2H as a first option by every measure.

:facepalm

Pippen just got more exposure because the Bulls drew GOAT ratings and NY was seen as a dirty goon team.[/QUOTE]
He said Ewing was better every year of the 90s. I brought up 96 because there's nothing to support Ewing being better that year. I'm sorry you have trouble following simple conversations.

Also why are we supposed to take tpols' opinion on Ewing seriously? Dude tried arguing about Ewing versus LeBron ffs. He's clearly a massive Ewing stan. No objectivity.

Tyson Chandler gave Lebron fits... Pat Ewing would make him piss his pants.

And Oak. and Mason. You arent stiff arming your way to the rim through that.

I'm not saying he had a better career, but peaks H2H same help in a series? I'm taking Ewing. It's a rock paper scissors thing.

[QUOTE=tpols;14028114]Tyson Chandler gave Lebron fits.

Pat Ewing would make him piss his pants. And Oak. and Mason. You arent stiff arming your way to the rim through that.

I'm not saying he had a better career, but peaks H2H same help in a series? I'm taking Ewing. It's a rock paper scissors thing.[/QUOTE]
:roll: :roll: :roll:










:roll: :roll: :roll:

For reference, here is how Backpick's come down on the two (they don't ring count so that excuse doesn't fly, although it is ironic MJ stans suddenly don't care about rings...):

Pippen:

[QUOTE]Pippen’s best years hit the beginning of the plus-minus era, and [B]his numbers are impressive. After a marginal year in ’94 (86th percentile), he posted scaled Augmented Plus-Minus values in the 97th percentile in ’95 and ’96, followed by a season in the 98th percentile using adjusted plus-minus [/B][B](APM) in 1997[/B]. His augmented[B] ’95 season was second in the league to plus-minus goliath David Robinson[/B], while [B]his ’96 season trailed only Robinson, Jordan and the venerable Penny Hardaway[/B].

In total, [B]Pippen’s perimeter defense, rebounding and strong passing make him a highly scalable asset, capable of supercharging all kinds of teams[/B]. He played [B]second fiddle on excellent offenses[/B] alongside Jordan, spent most of his [B]prime leading good or great defenses[/B], and his brush with the MVP in 1994 is inline with my estimation of his peak as a weak MVP candidate.8However, Pippen’s prime was shortened by injuries, and his last high-level year was in 1997. (He was stellar at times in 1998 until his back flared up in the postseason.)

He’s entrenched in the group of players from 22-26, with a peak strong enough to edge out Stockton, but one that lags behind the players ahead of him[/QUOTE]

Wait, right behind David Robinson? Behind MJ, Robinson, Penny the next year? These are players MJ stans will sing hosannas to.

[URL="https://backpicks.com/2018/01/29/backpicks-goat-23-scottie-pippen/"]https://backpicks.com/2018/01/29/backpicks-goat-23-scottie-pippen/[/URL]

Ewing:

[QUOTE]Ewing’s plus-minus footprint began in 1994, and [B]AuPM gives him three seasons between the 81st and 89th percentile; good, but not great[/B]. He [B]then posted four scaled adjusted plus-minus (APM) years between the 92nd and 97th percentile[/B], primarily from defensive value. This suggests that his mid ’90s were slightly better than what AuPM portrays (from ’94-96), and I see these numbers as an indicator that [B]Ewing’s peak was likely quite strong[/B]. He lost much of the 1998 season to injury, but the Knicks played scintillating defense in 30 games with him that year, improving 5.9 efficiency points on D to 7.8 points ahead of the league.

For my money, he strung together 10 consecutive All-Star seasons, with four weak-MVP years and a top-30 peak of all time. [B]I don’t love his portability, nor that he failed to play on a really good offense. To scale well, Ewing would need to curtail his isolation frequency, and I have doubts that he could. I could also see devaluing his mid-’90s defense slightly more, which could push him as low as 30th[/B]. Nonetheless, he packaged strong scoring with a top-20 defensive peak, just enough to land him here.[/QUOTE]

[URL="https://backpicks.com/2018/01/22/backpicks-goat-27-patrick-ewing/"]https://backpicks.com/2018/01/22/backpicks-goat-27-patrick-ewing/[/URL]

Only one of the two appears on this chart:

[IMG]https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Jordan-v-GOAT-on-off-results-91-93-50g.png[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14028117]For reference, here is how Backpick's come down on the two (they don't ring count so that excuse doesn't fly, although it is ironic MJ stans suddenly don't care about rings...):

Pippen:



Wait, right behind David Robinson? Behind MJ, Robinson, Penny the next year? These are players MJ stans will sing hosannas to.

[URL="https://backpicks.com/2018/01/29/backpicks-goat-23-scottie-pippen/"]https://backpicks.com/2018/01/29/backpicks-goat-23-scottie-pippen/[/URL]

Ewing:



[URL="https://backpicks.com/2018/01/22/backpicks-goat-27-patrick-ewing/"]https://backpicks.com/2018/01/22/backpicks-goat-27-patrick-ewing/[/URL]

Only one of the two appears on this chart:

[IMG]https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Jordan-v-GOAT-on-off-results-91-93-50g.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]
STFU Hater! Ewing was better than peak LeBron!













:roll:











:yaohappy:

[QUOTE=RRR3;14028111]Also why are we supposed to take tpols' opinion on Ewing seriously? Dude tried arguing about Ewing versus LeBron ffs. He's clearly a massive Ewing stan. No objectivity.[/QUOTE]

:lol

It is funny these guys act like Ewing playing in New York wasn't a huge advantage. There are 50 governors in the USA. Guess which one got his Coronavirus briefings covered daily? The national media (including the sports media) is based in NYC. NYC is by far the largest market in the United States. The country has three newspapers that are nationally distributed--two of them are based in NYC (the other outside DC and is more geared for travelers than regular news consumption like the [I]New York Times[/I] and [I]Wall Street Journal[/I] are). There is no better launch pad to become a superstar, to get media hype, get on television, etc. than playing in New York.

Just compare Ewing to small market peers. He and Drexler are ranked about the same all-time. How often do people talk about Drexler? How much did NBC promote Drexler versus Ewing? How often was New York on national TV versus Portland? How many times did New York get the marquee Christmas game? Why is their an entire conspiracy theory about the NBA getting Ewing to New York (why not Cleveland, Milwaukee, or San Antonio?)?

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14028122]:lol

It is funny these guys act like Ewing playing in New York wasn't a huge advantage. There are 50 governors in the USA. Guess which one got his Coronavirus briefings covered daily? The national media (including the sports media) is based in NYC. NYC is by far the largest market in the United States. The country has three newspapers that are nationally distributed--two of them are based in NYC (the other outside DC and is more geared for travelers than regular news coverage like the [I]New York Times[/I] and [I]Wall Street Journal[/I] are). There is no better launch pad to become a superstar, to get media hype, get on television, etc. than playing in New York.

Just compare Ewing to small market peers. He and Drexler are ranked about the same all-time. How often do people talk about Drexler? How much did NBC promote Drexler versus Ewing? How often was New York on versus Portland? How many times did New York get the marquee Christmas game? Why is their an entire conspiracy theory about the NBA getting Ewing to New York (why not Cleveland, Milwaukee, or San Antonio?)?[/QUOTE]
Look at his post arguing Ewing was better than peak LeBron. Dude has lost it. Ewing GOAT!

[QUOTE=RRR3;14028123]Look at his post arguing Ewing was better than peak LeBron. Dude has lost it. Ewing GOAT![/QUOTE]

This from someone who goes on and on about playoff efficiency when Ewing authored arguably the WOAT NBA finals for a superstar in efficiency. His one shot at a ring and the GOAT doesn't show up?

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14028124]This from someone who goes on and on about playoff efficiency when Ewing authored arguably the WOAT NBA finals for a superstar in efficiency. His one shot at a ring and the GOAT doesn't show up?[/QUOTE]
It was Pippen and LeBron's fault. Even though Pippen was at home watching and LeBron was a little kid. They somehow were responsible for making the GOAT god Ewing miss so many shots.

[QUOTE=tpols;14028114]Tyson Chandler gave Lebron fits... Pat Ewing would make him piss his pants.

And Oak. and Mason. You arent stiff arming your way to the rim through that.

I'm not saying he had a better career, but [B]peaks H2H same help in a series? I'm taking Ewing. It's a rock paper scissors thing.[/B][/QUOTE] [IMG]https://media.giphy.com/media/glmRyiSI3v5E4/giphy.gif[/IMG]