Teammate career rankings between Jordan and Lebron -- The Reality

[QUOTE=insidious301;14111620]Pippen had better advanced stats than Ewing. And Ewing led NY who was Jordan's best 90s comp. In other words, you can delude yourself all you like, but the hard data disagrees with you. Undeniably so.



So if Pippen was a bench player or just "Larry Hughes" then what does that say about Jordan's comp? You aren't getting off, scott free with these claims.[/QUOTE]

Stop lying about the advanced stats.

Ewing has higher PER, WS/48, and efficiency.... And better raw stats by a mile, especially scoring because Ewing was an elite alpha dog scorer/shooter, while Pippen was a relative liability with stone hands.. Ewing carried offenses and teams while Pippen could get 10 points and no one noticed or cared.

There's no comparison, which is why Ewing has far better regular season peak (29/11/3 with 4.0 blocks versus 22/9/6 and 2 steals) and better playoff peak (Ewing destroyed Pippen in 94" to make the Finals)

Pippen is nowhere near this.. Pippen only has VORP and the dumb BPM (which says someone can score 10 points less but get a couple steals and have higher BPM)... you guys split BPM into 3 stats, but it's 1 stat and this shady tactic proves that pippen"s stats can't stand on their own

This is the official, unbiased GOAT list

[img]https://i.postimg.cc/P5HyRKwN/wow-7132-goat.png[/img]

I will concede if someone can pass LeFirst then they are the new GOAT

jordan is the greatest winner in pro sports if you're measuring careers. his career and narrative will never be surpassed.



lebron's career has also been spotless. what a GOAT.

[QUOTE=3ball;14111718]Stop lying about the advanced stats.

Ewing has higher PER, WS/48, and efficiency.... And better raw stats by a mile, especially scoring because Ewing was an elite alpha dog scorer/shooter, while Pippen was a relative liability with stone hands.. Ewing carried offenses and teams while Pippen could get 10 points and no one noticed or cared.[/quote]

You're in denial and willfully ignorant. Those stats are from both Ewing and Pippen's prime, and roughly 9 seasons of data. So to recap Prime Pippen(91-98) had better: bpm, ortg, ws, ws48, vorp & ortg. Prime Ewing(88-97) has better: ts, per & ppg. What's more, we know all the stats Pippen beat Ewing in are cumulative & impact ones. Meaning they are unequivocally better measures. What all of this tells us is you need to brush up on what "facts" are. They are clearly not on your side.

In the meantime, we'll wait for you to explain why Pippen outplayed Ewing. The same Ewing who led NY and was also Jordan's best comp.

[QUOTE=insidious301;14111753]You're in denial and willfully ignorant. Those stats are from both Ewing and Pippen's prime, and roughly 9 seasons of data. So to recap Prime Pippen(91-98) had better: bpm, ortg, ws, ws48, vorp & ortg. Prime Ewing(88-97) has better: ts, per & ppg. What's more, we know all the stats Pippen beat Ewing in are cumulative & impact ones. Meaning they are unequivocally better measures. What all of this tells us is you need to brush up on what "facts" are. They are clearly not on your side.

In the meantime, I will be waiting for you to explain why Pippen was better than Ewing. The same Ewing who led NY and was also Jordan's best comp.[/QUOTE]

Yup. His. own. metrics. :lol

Even TS % isn't a clear win for Ewing. The gap is 1%--but Ewing was a center taking a lot of bunny shots while Pippen was a perimeter player taking a lot of threes and mid-range shots.

In the playoffs that gap is erased completely.

[QUOTE=insidious301;14111753]You're in denial and willfully ignorant. Those stats are from both Ewing and Pippen's prime, and roughly 9 seasons of data. So to recap Prime Pippen(91-98) had better: bpm, ortg, ws, ws48, vorp & ortg. Prime Ewing(88-97) has better: ts, per & ppg. What's more, we know all the stats Pippen beat Ewing in are cumulative & impact ones. Meaning they are unequivocally better measures. What all of this tells us is you need to brush up on what "facts" are. They are clearly not on your side.

In the meantime, we'll wait for you to explain why Pippen outplayed Ewing. The same Ewing who led NY and was also Jordan's best comp.[/QUOTE]

Again, your stats are wrong

Ewing has higher PER, WS/48 and efficiency... And better raw stats by a mile... And better regular season and playoff peak

Pippen only has BPM which is a fraud, and meaningless VORP.. he trails in everything else and everything that matters - he literally sucks at scoring compared to Ewing... An entirely lower caliber of player... A "pippen" lol

Ewing was an alpha dog scorer that carried teams, while Pippen was a role player that got carried and was never held accountable (like a role player)

if you really want to nitpick jordan's spotless career though...

How can Pippen be top 30 all-time when he isn't top 30 all-time in a single stat category?

His best stat is BPM, which is biased towards him, yet he's only 35th!!!!... And every other stat he ranks outside the top 100

Pippen is NOT a top 100 player - if he was, he wouldn't rank OUTSIDE the top 100 in basically everything

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14111774]Yup. His. own. metrics. :lol

Even TS % isn't a clear win for Ewing. The gap is 1%--but Ewing was a center taking a lot of bunny shots while Pippen was a perimeter player taking a lot of threes and mid-range shots.

In the playoffs that gap is erased completely.[/QUOTE]

Credit to you for posting those numbers btw. I "[U]fact checked[/U]" them and they were all correct. The only problem now is that Jordan fans are in denial and refuse to accept the facts. Going as far to say the [U]FACTUAL DATA[/U] is wrong. They are beginning to crack, Roundball!

[QUOTE=3ball;14111777]Again, your stats are wrong

Ewing has higher PER, WS/48 and efficiency... And better raw stats by a mile... And better regular season and playoff peak

Pippen only has BPM which is a fraud, and meaningless VORP.. he trails in everything else and everything that matters - he literally sucks at scoring compared to Ewing... An entirely lower caliber of player... A "pippen" lol

Ewing was an alpha dog scorer that carried teams, while Pippen was a role player that got carried and was never held accountable (like a role player)[/QUOTE]

Incorrect. The stats are all documented and were posted [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?484204-30-guys-had-better-statistica-peak-than-pippen-in-90-s-and-better-playoff-performance/page3"]here[/URL]. They paint Pippen with better ws/48 & overall winshares. Adding to that, better ortg, vorp & bpm - the latter two being impact stats capturing all around play. When all of the information is laid out properly, as in Pippen>Ewing, how do you come to grips with Ewing leading NY? The Bulls #2 was better than the #1 on the [U]best opponent[/U]

[QUOTE=goozeman;14110909]So "cherry picking stats" means posting almost all relevant statistical data for a player's entire career now? I even threw the fake-Pippen/Lebron fans a bone, and dropped your favorite metric BPM in there just to be fair.[/QUOTE]

You are an irrelevant poster. How about defensive stats, and level of competitions? And pippen and grant won more playoffs series than bosh, love, and irving without their best players.

[QUOTE=Insidious]Credit to you for posting those numbers btw. I "fact checked" them and they were all correct[/QUOTE]

Here is some more. Augmented plus/minus data. Unfortunately, we don't have this data from before 1994 but this gives us 1994-1997 with both players still all-NBA players. This is from data I pulled to compare several top stars and tracking them year-over-year.

[U]Augmented Plus-Minus (1994-1997)[/U]

[U]1994[/U]: Robinson 7.5, Malone 5.9, Hakeem 5.2, [B]Pippen 3.7[/B], Shaq/Barkley/Miller 3.6, [B]Ewing 3.2[/B], Penny 2.9, Payton -0.2
[U]1995[/U]: Robinson 8.4, [B]Pippen 5.8[/B], Shaq/Penny 5.6, Malone 5.3, Hakeem 5.1, Barkley 3.9, [B]Ewing 3.6[/B], Miller 2.4, Payton 2.3, Hill 2.2
[U]1996[/U]: Robinson 6.5, Penny 5.6, [B]Pippen 5.5[/B], Malone 5.1, Shaq/Hill 4.1, Hakeem 3.9, Miller 3.6, Barkley 3.1, [B]Ewing/Payton 2.9[/B]
[U]1997[/U]: [B]Pippen 6.4, Ewing 5.7[/B], Malone 5.2, Shaq 4.9, Payton 4.5, Penny/Hakeem 4.0, Hill 3.5, Barkley 2.9, Miller 1.8, Robinson 1.6

Pippen is ahead of him every year.

How about RAPM (real adjusted plus-minus)? We have that data starting in 1997 so let's look at 1997 (Ewing was no longer elite by 98', Pippen by 99').

[U]RAPM[/U]

Pippen: 9th at 3.9
Ewing: 10th at 3.8

So, close but Pippen ahead again. How about in the playoffs in 97'?

Pippen: 3rd at 2.5
Ewing: 25th at 0.8

Pippen moved up, Ewing moved down significantly in the playoffs.

How about net on/off? Available since 97'.

[U]Net On/Off[/U]

Pippen: +8.1
Ewing: +7.4

In the 97' PO:

Pippen: +13.8
Ewing: +9.1

Data point after data point has Pippen>Ewing. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=insidious301;14111795]Credit to you for posting those numbers btw. I "[U]fact checked[/U]" them and they were all correct. The only problem now is that Jordan fans are in denial and refuse to accept the facts. Going as far to say the [U]FACTUAL DATA[/U] is wrong. They are beginning to crack, Roundball!



Incorrect. The stats are all documented and were posted [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?484204-30-guys-had-better-statistica-peak-than-pippen-in-90-s-and-better-playoff-performance/page3"]here[/URL]. They paint Pippen with better ws/48 & overall winshares. Adding to that, better ortg, vorp & bpm - the latter two being impact stats capturing all around play. When all of the information is laid out properly, as in Pippen>Ewing, how do you come to grips with Ewing leading NY? The Bulls #2 was better than the #1 on the [U]best opponent[/U][/QUOTE]

Again, Ewing has better everything - better advanced stats (PER, WS/48, TS)... better raw stats (not even close)... better peak in RS and PO

And Ewing carried teams as an elite alpha-dog scorer - he was never an Iggy or a "pippen".. Pippen was a [U]bad[/U] scorer compared to Ewing.. it's like comparing Iggy to Embiid

Ewing was on that top tier, aka MJ, Hakeem, Shaq, Malone, Barkley... Pippen was never on this level and it's a disgusting lie to say he was

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;14111805]Here is some more. Augmented plus/minus data. Unfortunately, we don't have this data from before 1994 but this gives us 1994-1997 with both players still all-NBA players. This is from data I pulled to compare several top stars and tracking them year-over-year.

[U]Augmented Plus-Minus (1994-1997)[/U]

[U]1994[/U]: Robinson 7.5, Malone 5.9, Hakeem 5.2, [B]Pippen 3.7[/B], Shaq/Barkley/Miller 3.6, [B]Ewing 3.2[/B], Penny 2.9, Payton -0.2
[U]1995[/U]: Robinson 8.4, [B]Pippen 5.8[/B], Shaq/Penny 5.6, Malone 5.3, Hakeem 5.1, Barkley 3.9, [B]Ewing 3.6[/B], Miller 2.4, Payton 2.3, Hill 2.2
[U]1996[/U]: Robinson 6.5, Penny 5.6, [B]Pippen 5.5[/B], Malone 5.1, Shaq/Hill 4.1, Hakeem 3.9, Miller 3.6, Barkley 3.1, [B]Ewing/Payton 2.9[/B]
[U]1997[/U]: [B]Pippen 6.4, Ewing 5.7[/B], Malone 5.2, Shaq 4.9, Payton 4.5, Penny/Hakeem 4.0, Hill 3.5, Barkley 2.9, Miller 1.8, Robinson 1.6

Pippen is ahead of him every year.

How about RAPM (real adjusted plus-minus)? We have that data starting in 1997 so let's look at 1997 (Ewing was no longer elite by 98', Pippen by 99').

Pippen: 9th at 3.9
Ewing: 10th at 3.8

So, close but Pippen ahead again. How about in the playoffs in 97'?

Pippen: 3rd at 2.5
Ewing: 25th at 0.8

Pippen moved up, Ewing moved down significantly in the playoffs.

Data point after data point has Pippen>Ewing. It is something like 12 of 15 in favor of Pippen now. :oldlol:
Ewing:[/QUOTE]

Real plus minus is the best measure of impact, so this is very keen data. Thank you. Pippen now leads Ewing in basically every major advanced stat & now in impact without the box score. Not a complete sweep but domination that is close enough. Will the Jordan fans address it? Can they come to terms with Pippen > The #1 on their greatest rival? Time will tell!

[QUOTE=3ball;14111809]Again, Ewing has better everything - better advanced stats (PER, WS/48, TS)... better raw stats (not even close)... better peak in RS and PO

And Ewing carried teams as an elite alpha-dog scorer - he was never an Iggy or a "pippen".. Ewing was always much better than Pippen and it's dumb to even consider otherwise, let alone ARGUE it..[/QUOTE]

Once again, incorrect. Pippen's prime numbers beat Ewing's prime numbers handily. In bpm, vorp, ws, ws48, ortg & now apm/rapm. Damn near a clean sweep! Unfortunately, you will have to come to grips sooner than later.

[QUOTE=Lebron23;14111803]You are an irrelevant poster. How about defensive stats, and level of competitions? And pippen and grant won more playoffs series than bosh, love, and irving without their best players.[/QUOTE]

Bingo

[QUOTE=insidious301;14111814]Real plus minus is the best measure of impact, so this is very keen data. Thank you. Pippen now leads Ewing in basically every major advanced stat & now in impact without the box score. Not a complete sweep but domination that is close enough. Will the Jordan fans address it? Can they come to terms with Pippen > The #1 on their greatest rival? Time will tell!



Once again, incorrect. Pippen's prime numbers beat Ewing's prime numbers handily. In bpm, vorp, ws, ws48, ortg & now apm/rapm. Damn near a clean sweep! Unfortunately, you will have to come to grips sooner than later.[/QUOTE]
Ewing led PER, WS/48, and TS... So he wins advanced and obviously raw stats

Pippen was a bad scorer compared to Ewing.. it's like comparing Iggy to Embiid.. no one thinks iggy > Embiid and it was the same with Pippen and Ewing

Ewing was on that top tier, aka MJ, Hakeem, Shaq, Malone, Barkley... Pippen was never on this level and it's a disgusting lie to say he was