MJ dunks over Hakeem

[QUOTE=goozeman;14110880]


[B]Career Rankings[/B]

[B]PER:[/B]

Anthony Davis....3
Dwayne Wade......21
Kyrie Irving.....33
Kevin Love.......45
Chris Bosh.......62
Scottie Pippen...132
Horace Grant.....185


[B]OBPM:[/B]

Anthony Davis....12
Kyrie Irving.....13
Dwayne Wade......25
Kevin Love.......29
Scottie Pippen...90
Chris Bosh.......102
Horace Grant.....107


[B]WS/48:[/B]

Anthony Davis....13
Horace Grant.....55
Kevin Love.......57
Kyrie Irving.....68
Dwayne Wade......70
Chris Bosh.......76
Scottie Pippen...129

[B]
Ortg:[/B]

Anthony Davis....28
Kevin Love.......47
Kyrie Irving.....89
Chris Bosh.......107
Dwayne Wade......231
Scottie Pippen...NR top 250

[B]
Effective Field Goal Percentage:[/B]

Anthony Davis....86
Kyrie Irving.....99
Horace Grant.....206
Kevin Love.......225
Chris Bosh.......227
Scottie Pippen...244
Dwayne Wade......NR top 250

[B]
True Shooting:[/B]

Anthony Davis.....41
Kyrie Irving......84
Chris Bosh........89
Kevin Love........92
Dwayne Wade.......183
Dennis Rodman.....244 :rockon:
Scoottie Pippen...NR top 250 :facepalm
Horace Grant......NR top 250


[B]BPM:[/B]

Anthony Davis.....12
Dwayne Wade.......22
Kyrie Irving......32
Scottie Pippen....35
Kevin Love........48
Chris Bosh........134
Horace Grant......176


Notice that all the real stats that are actually measuring something tangible (PER, OBPM, Ortg, WS/48, eFG%, TS%, etc) actually correlate very closely with one another in rankings. They all say that Pippen was maybe a top-100 offensive player all-time. Pippen wasn't even a Chris Bosh level offensive talent.

In summation, in order for Lebron to be on the level of Jordan, he would need to win six titles and win six Finals MVP's with a Chris Bosh/Kevin Love level player as his second option.


[/QUOTE]


[IMG]https://j.gifs.com/1rnKoo.gif[/IMG]

You clearly never watched raptor Bosh. They ran the offense through him out of the high post face up midrange.

[video=youtube_share;lrqqFX4ax-0]https://youtu.be/lrqqFX4ax-0?si=L1Lsuvvmm4k5ivgp[/video]

@:40 is especially impressive taking peak Dwight off the dribble and reverse slamming on him.

But his jumper was high arcing and buttery smooth lefty. And he had a lot of counters and quickness to beat dudes off 1-2 dribbles if they didn't close out well.

[QUOTE=tpols;14944705]You clearly never watched raptor Bosh. They ran the offense through him out of the high post face up midrange.

[video=youtube_share;lrqqFX4ax-0]https://youtu.be/lrqqFX4ax-0?si=L1Lsuvvmm4k5ivgp[/video]

@:40 is especially impressive taking peak Dwight off the dribble and reverse slamming on him.

But his jumper was high arcing and buttery smooth lefty. And he had a lot of counters and quickness to beat dudes off 1-2 dribbles if they didn't close out well.[/QUOTE]

I had season tickets to Georgia tech basketball as a kid. He was one of my favorite players. I watched him..

[QUOTE=tpols;14944705]You clearly never watched raptor Bosh. They ran the offense through him out of the high post face up midrange.

[video=youtube_share;lrqqFX4ax-0]https://youtu.be/lrqqFX4ax-0?si=L1Lsuvvmm4k5ivgp[/video]

@:40 is especially impressive taking peak Dwight off the dribble and reverse slamming on him.

But his jumper was high arcing and buttery smooth lefty. And he had a lot of counters and quickness to beat dudes off 1-2 dribbles if they didn't close out well.[/QUOTE]


Bosh was All-NBA without developing under Jordan or winning titles in the triangle, so he would be amazing if he DID develop under Jordan and get that defensive perception that Pippen enjoyed, while having his high-post mastery fit like a glove in the triangle.. Bosh was dominant from the high post and would lift the triangle to new heights alongside MJ...

Pippen's weaker shooting and post play didn't fit as well in the triangle and was frequently carried by MJ - he was carried in [I]every[/I] series if we're using the same standards that most guys use or that people use when looking at Lebron's teammates and the production he requires from them to win.

[QUOTE=tpols;14944705]You clearly never watched raptor Bosh. They ran the offense through him out of the high post face up midrange.

[video=youtube_share;lrqqFX4ax-0]https://youtu.be/lrqqFX4ax-0?si=L1Lsuvvmm4k5ivgp[/video]

@:40 is especially impressive taking peak Dwight off the dribble and reverse slamming on him.

But his jumper was high arcing and buttery smooth lefty. And he had a lot of counters and quickness to beat dudes off 1-2 dribbles if they didn't close out well.[/QUOTE]


Wow I hope everyone can see how much Bosh's high post mastery, quick moves and touch would DOMINATE the triangle FAR more than Pau ever did.. Kobe would've easily destroyed Boston in 2008 and 3-peated with Bosh instead of Pau.. Pau got housed by KG in 08', whereas Bosh was a more sophisticated player on both ends of the floor, since he had ground-breaking PNR defense too in addition to offensive versatility..

[QUOTE=3ba11;14944715]Wow I hope everyone can see how much Bosh's high post mastery, quick moves and touch would DOMINATE the triangle FAR more than Pau ever did.. Kobe would've easily destroyed Boston in 2008 and 3-peated with Bosh instead of Pau.. Pau got housed by KG in 08', whereas Bosh was a more sophisticated player on both ends of the floor, since he had ground-breaking PNR defense too in addition to offensive versatility..[/QUOTE]

Pau brought more low post scoring and passing than Bosh. But Bosh was a more versatile defender due to superior athleticism and had a higher scoring cieling. They were similar caliber players, both great players albeit different styles. Paus style was perfect for the triangle because he is very high IQ. Bosh is a smart guy too but Pau is like doctor smart.

[QUOTE=tpols;14944686]Chris Bosh averaged 24 ppg on elite efficiency in 2010 with Andrea Bargnani as his only decent offensive help. Who the **** was "setting him up"...? :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

Bosh is a career 19 a game guy who retired before playing the 6–7 aging years guys generally do to damage career averages. Hes the type to play 37-40 minutes for 22 points. He wasn’t some bigtime scorer.

Prime Bosh and a prime Pippen are both gonna give you 20-24 Bosh more often towards the 24 while he was definitely a worse playmaker and did not run offenses. Pippen was one of the better point guards in the nba even washed up. The Blazers made almost retired Scottie the point and went like 30-8 to save their season one year.

Scottie was a better shooter off the dribble, a better ball handler, and a much better playmaker who scored in the same range while being one of the goat defenders.

2 more points out of 220 scored going both ways that game doesn’t decide which player was more impactful. And not definitely doesn’t determine skill.

Bosh wasn’t some Lamar Odom type guard skill big.

He was a great faceup guy who was quick and could shoot who developed more range at the end.

He wasn’t more skilled as a total player than Pippen if only for how much handles and playmaking contribute to total skills.

Pippen was jab stepping and blowing by people for dunks all the time. Hitting little pull-ups. Hooks with both hands. He hit spot up threes. A lot of the things Bosh did. But Bosh was not bringing the ball up and dribbling at 28 feet then stepping into comfortable threes. He wasn’t that kinda hybrid big to make the argument is more skilled than a point forward.

Not an Odom. Not a KG really. Not an Antione Walker. Hell he wasn’t as nimble or skilled with the ball as Derrick Coleman. You watch Vin Baker Bucks highlights you will see a lot Bosh wasn’t routinely doing handles wise.

Great player. Not the type to compare skills wise to a ball handling wing who ran teams.

And he wasn’t a “Jesus Christ….” shot maker like Dirk to make up the difference either.

Great player…not a hybrid wing skills all around 4 to put into a total skills discussion.

You could argue he was better than some who were(Odom…Antione Walker) but that wasn’t the issue.

Skilled guy for the kind of player he was. But not on that “Almost like a wing” list of skilled bigs.

[QUOTE=tpols;14944738]Pau brought more low post scoring and passing than Bosh. But Bosh was a more versatile defender due to superior athleticism and had a higher scoring cieling. They were similar caliber players, both great players albeit different styles. Paus style was perfect for the triangle because he is very high IQ. Bosh is a smart guy too but Pau is like doctor smart.[/QUOTE]


Pau was more skilled than Bosh on offense for sure. Pau was just shy of guard skill level as a big. He was held back by body type not skills. Pau passed like he was 5’10” instinct, accuracy, and quick decision wise he was just too big to move like one and not limber enough to get low and dribble like a few of the bigs in question could.

The Odom types might literally be one in a million. Probably more than that.

Bosh could be said to be better due to defense….especially considering how important his defensive role was in Miami. But I don’t think he has a case to be more skilled.

The underrating of bosh is disgusting

The best they can muster is “he didn’t have success when jose calderon was his second best player!”

[QUOTE=tpols;14944686]Chris Bosh averaged 24 ppg on elite efficiency in 2010 with Andrea Bargnani as his only decent offensive help. [B]Who the **** was "setting him up"...?[/B] :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

I knew I remembered this being the case but decided to actually take a few minutes to look into it to back my case up, so thought I'd readdress. Jose Calderon was absolutely a top-tier playmaking point guard. He was top 5 in the league in assists in 08 and 09 before Jack came in 10 and split PGs duties, and was a very high IQ player.

[video=youtube;85ryzMcWunU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85ryzMcWunU[/video]

Before people inevitably misinterpret this as me saying Calderon was great overall "help"...stop it. He had his deficiencies as an overall player, particularly on defense.

But when I say:

[QUOTE]and against better defenders and he needed to be set up. [/QUOTE]

And get met with "hurrr who was setting him up, Bargnani? LULZ". No...by one of the better set-up men in the league.

[QUOTE=warriorfan;14944746]The underrating of bosh is disgusting

The best they can muster is “he didn’t have success when jose calderon was his second best player!”[/QUOTE]

Muster against what?

The same per list that had David Lee ahead of prime Kobe in 2010? If not for being the third option on the Heat there would be no more reason to talk about him than a good 2 dozen random 20-25 ppg bigs over the years.

Perfectly good player. Great even. But nothing to be talked about 15 years later. He was basically Jermaine O’Neal. Fans were torn at the time actually

[QUOTE]

[I]Chris Bosh, hes younger and durable. Chris also has more character IMO
[/I]

[I]
For a seven-game series you almost have to take O'Neal. Bosh doesn't have playoff experience.

But damn, am I ever looking forward to Bosh in the playoffs, anyways.
[/I]

[I]
Chris bosh is younger and is already a starting allstar

JO is a veteran, an excellent Defender, leads the league in blocks per game, has been an allstar plenty of times

JO is better now but bosh will be better in 1-2 years...

I'd Take Bosh
[/I]

[I]
I'd take Bosh even for the playoffs. This guy plays like hes been in the league for years.
[/I]

[I]
Bosh owns Jermaine Oneal.
[/I]

[I]
How are they similar, JO is much more of a back to the basket player. Bosh has much more range than JO and can put the ball on the floor from almost on the perimeter versus other bigs. JO plays defense, Bosh does not.
[/I]

[I]
I think it would have to depend solely on what you're trying to do with your team, what kind of team you're building or think you can put together easier. If you're just building for the future, and need the person that you want as the face of your franchise for as long as possible... Bosh. He's got a lot of miles left on him, and he's already an all-star.

If you're building for right now, and the immediate future, however, it depends on what you figure your team will be doing. Jermaine O'Neal is miles ahead of Bosh in all defensive abilities. He's a better shot blocker, better post defender, better weak-side help guy, and is generally just hard to get a shot off on. If you're looking to build an offensive team, however, Chris Bosh is already more polished than Jermaine in the post. (Though Jermaine has an impressive skill set in there, especially his left hand. Bosh doesn't have nearly as good of a right hand as Jermaine has for a left.) Bosh is also a good passer, and has a good understanding of how offenses works. He's also a character guy, and clearly willing to give up shots in order for the offense to run smoothly, haven't seen as much of that with O'Neal. Then there's the fact that every time I see Bosh playing defense, you get the distinct feeling that, eventually, he's going to block a shot with his neck. I'm almost positive it's going to happen... and it will be the greatest block of all time.
[/I]

[I]
based on that article - in a 7 round series - JO by far.
[/I]

[I]
Jermaine O'neal. He's the better rebounder, post up scorer, and post defender, and those are the three most important attributes for a PF.
[/I]

[I]
Bosh's defense isn't great, but it is decent. He certainly has a far better offensive game, which in my opinion surpasses anything JO can do on defense.
[/I]

[I]
JO. Bosh doesn't appear physical enough. Hey, there was a game some time ago where Richard Jefferson completely locked up Chris Bosh and made him useless. If JO could stay more around the basket, he is a very good post player unlike Bosh.
[/I]


[/QUOTE]


Them ended up on the same team and my confidence they would do absolutely nothing together had Raptor fans on my ass for a while there.

Hes in a group with….

Mcdyess
Randle
Aldridge
Antawn Jamison
Juwon Howard
Zach Randolph
Larry Johnson
Boozer
Rasheed
Jermaine Oneal
Vin Baker


Somewhere in there just north of the Luis Scola, David West, and Paul Millsap level.

You can argue he’s trending towards the top of that list with guys like Pau, Shawn Kemp, and Kevin Love where we could argue you need another really small list but we aren’t talking about a whole other level.

Were talking about upper middle class stardom.

Definite star by regular player standards. But among the stars?

We talking more Allan Houston than Ray Allen. I don’t think Bosh quite crosses that line between being a regular star player and somebody to talk about for 20 years. He isn’t one of the best ever at anything that would bring him into long-term discussion.

Hes not gonna get all time rebound talk like Rodman. Hes not on a defensive goat short list or in talks for the all time all D team like a Pippen. You could actually say Love was closer to those talks for a minute. Hes exactly the type who would retire and have you not sure if he’s still playing or not like Lamarcus Aldridge. Except Aldridge made like 5 more all nba teams.

Nothing to reflect back on when you tell your kids about the game. If you have some true sickos like I was who ask about the best faceup bigs of an era? Ok.

That aside?

Toronto Bosh vanishes into history like Terry Cummings.

The main thing when I watch the tape that separates Bosh from Pippen scoring wise is he simply had more moves and counters. Especially out of the face up triple threat position? Pippen didn't have that. And his jumper wasn't as smooth or reliable.

Yes Bosh was a better pure shooter. If he came along today he’d have made far more threes I’m sure.

Bosh's great PNR defense got no credit on the Heat except among people in the know

Alongside MJ, he would be all-defense just like Pippen

There are no examples of Pippen locking anyone down as the primary defender or giving the Bulls better team defense than top opponents during the 1st three-peat - the Bulls only had the #7 defense during the 1st three-peat......

The only reason Pippen's defense is lauded so much is because the media realized early on that Pippen's offense couldn't be praised and that Jordan was carrying the load.... hence the weird obsession with Pippen's defense and the resulting overranking of his career..... [I]and "passes" given for anemic offense that no other player would get, regardless of defense[/I].

Btw, everyone mentions that Bosh was only 20 ppg or whatever but he sacrificed his peak years for bron-ball... Also Pippen's peak was just a dunker system player for 15-20 ppg... Most importantly, look at Pippen outside the triangle that he grew up in!!!.. He was just a dunker!!! 14 on 40% in Houston and 18 on 32% in the 99' [U]FIRST ROUND[/U] for goodness sake!!! Everyone crushes it in the first round except Pigpen!

It's one thing to "watch the tape" as Trollpols loves to say, it's another thing entirely to know what you're watching and how to interpret it.

I could make my cousin "watch the tape" about any basketball player and while he would have "watched the tape" he wouldnt know what he was talking about. Same goes for Trollpols.

Anyways, what Bosh did on a losing team really overrated the kind of player he was in retrospect. He didn't do anything remarkable. Someone has to score points on a bad team, it's not like the scores end up 120-50 when a good NBA team plays a mediocre one. Bosh just had the green light and the offense ran through him. We saw what his true role was on a title contender.... You have to compare that version of Bosh to Pippen. We never seen Pippen play for a bad team as the #1 option is his prime to see what his scoring numbers could've been. We also know what Pippen was on a championship level team, in this case the greatest modern dynasty in basketball history.

Kevin Martin in the late 00s was scoring a lot. He was doing like 25 a game on elite efficiency.... Doesn't mean he was better than Dirk Nowitzki as an offensive player.

Pippen was all NBA without Jordan. All NBA first team actually. Got 7 first place MVP votes. Bosh is one of the best #3 options. Pippen is one of the best #2 options. That's the level of difference between them as players.