Tmac: 'Replace me with Kobe and I'm with Shaq, I don't win a championship?'

McGrady was very talented defensively.

It's already been said but in Orlando he was tasked with doing so much offensively that he didn't empty the tank as much on that end. When he was locked in though he was certainly very strong.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15017821]I've always had beef with the 2000 WCF argument because they wouldn't have needed Kobe's heroics in the first place if he had played better earlier in the series.

12 points on 2/9 in a Game 2 loss

[B][SIZE=4]17 points[/SIZE][/B] on 4/13 & 6 TO's in a Game 5 loss

I'm confident Orlando McGrady is performing better than that, esp with Shaq being the focus of the defense.[/QUOTE]

Did you know Tmac averaged 17 in the 2000 PO's with Vince? And 15ppg in the regular season.

Why is everyone saying Tmac would win the first one?

[QUOTE=LAL;15017859]Did you know Tmac averaged 17 in the 2000 PO's with Vince? And 15ppg in the regular season.

Why is everyone saying Tmac would win the first one?[/QUOTE]

Different circumstances. Obviously seeing what he did immediately in 2001 it's clear if he didn't play with Vince (worried about stepping on his toes, didn't get enough shots, etc.) that he was certainly capable of more than his 2000 output.

[QUOTE=LAL;15017859]Did you know Tmac averaged 17 in the 2000 PO's with Vince? And 15ppg in the regular season.

Why is everyone saying Tmac would win the first one?[/QUOTE]

Well for one, the trajectory for Tmac joining a lottery Raptors team and spending his first 3 years playing behind Vince is likely different than TMac joining the Lakers where he probably gets more opportunity to showcase his skills right away playing off prime Shaq. You may have seen a better version of TMac in 2000 than the one you saw on the Raptors at the same point, if you take the view that his talent was innate and going to surface sooner or later based on the circumstances. If anything, Shaq consuming like 85% of the defensive attention frees up Tmac way more than playing next to Vince, he was completely warping the defensive gravity towards the paint and opening up the perimeter. It benefited young Kobe, it would have benefited Tmac. To the point of winning a title? Maybe, maybe not.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15017860]Different circumstances. Obviously seeing what he did immediately in 2001 it's clear if he didn't play with Vince (worried about stepping on his toes, didn't get enough shots, etc.) that he was certainly capable of more than his 2000 output.[/QUOTE]

Bingo.

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15017860]Different circumstances. Obviously seeing what he did immediately in 2001 it's clear if he didn't play with Vince (worried about stepping on his toes, didn't get enough shots, etc.) that he was certainly capable of more than his 2000 output.[/QUOTE]



[QUOTE=Phoenix;15017861]Well for one, the trajectory for Tmac joining a lottery Raptors team and spending his first 3 years playing behind Vince is likely different than TMac joining the Lakers where he probably gets more opportunity to showcase his skills right away playing off prime Shaq. You may have seen a better version of TMac in 2000 than the one you saw on the Raptors at the same point, if you take the view that his talent was innate and going to surface sooner or later based on the circumstances. If anything, Shaq consuming like 85% of the defensive attention frees up Tmac way more than playing next to Vince, he was completely warping the defensive gravity towards the paint and opening up the perimeter. It benefited young Kobe, it would have benefited Tmac. To the point of winning a title? Maybe, maybe not.



Bingo.[/QUOTE]

So he couldn't be a starter and didn't want to step on Vince's toes, averaged 15 but would have been an all star with Shaq instead?

Vince was in the way and Kobe had plenty of opportunities, didn't have issues with playing time or stepping on Shaq and his veteran teammates toes in 2000?

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory;15017860]Different circumstances. Obviously seeing what he did immediately in 2001 it's clear if he didn't play with Vince (worried about stepping on his toes, didn't get enough shots, etc.) that he was certainly capable of more than his 2000 output.[/QUOTE]

No, he couldn't do it with Vince, he did in Orlando in 2001, Kobe did it with Shaq in 2001 with everyone trying to hold him back, still carried them whenever they needed to win. Please shut up bron stan.

[QUOTE=LAL;15017867]So he couldn't be a starter and didn't want to step on Vince's toes, averaged 15 but would have been an all star with Shaq instead?

Vince was in the way and Kobe had plenty of opportunities, didn't have issues with playing time or stepping on Shaq and his veteran teammates toes in 2000?[/QUOTE]

I mean, Shawfactory explained it simply enough. He went from 15ppg in 2000 to 27ppg immediately the following season, and 34ppg against the Bucks who went onto the ECFs. Very clearly 2000 Tmac was capable of more, you don't jump THAT much from one season to the next. Is it that hard to imagine that Tmac in 2000 next to Shaq puts up similar production to Kobe? If anything, I'm not sure why Doug Christie was the starting SG in 2000, unless they just needed TMac for offensive punch off the bench, because Vince is listed as the starting SF. Who's to say what happens if Vince is the starting 2 and TMac starting 3 that year?

[QUOTE=Meticode;15017833]I already brought it up earlier. People either ignore the other side of the ball or they undervalue it.

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?521916-Tmac-Replace-me-with-Kobe-and-I-m-with-Shaq-I-don-t-win-a-championship&p=15017574&viewfull=1#post15017574[/url][/QUOTE]

Yeah seems like the latter. Now all-defensive teams are irrelevant and shouldn't be used lol. These same posters though will be the first to bring up MVPs, All-NBAs, and other accomplishments. But only when they [I]do matter[/I]...

[QUOTE=tpols;15017840]That... doesn't mean much when we're talking about a short window here. 2001-2005 tmac Shaq should win at least 1 ring.

Kobe is better thats why he went 5 time champ, but tmac in his short prime was like a 6'10 SGA.[/QUOTE]

In that "short window" Kobe was at his best defensively, making 1st team all-defense. I know. I know. I know... Defense doesn't matter. :lol

This is Tmac in Game 1 2000 vs Knicks:


[video=youtube;rhvZmBHIsf8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhvZmBHIsf8&ab_channel=gearmast3r[/video]


Now, that was really his only good game of the series( best of 5), but the point being.....I can see a reality where Tmac on the Lakers from day 1 develops faster than spending two of his first three seasons behind Vince. Eddie Jones was moved expressly to put Kobe into the starting lineup which no doubt accelerated his growth vs letting him develop slowly on the bench. By year 4 he already had a good deal of playoff experience. These guys first 3-4 years played out under different scenarios. It's very clear Tmac had oodles of talent bubbling under the surface, and the INSTANT he's the featured player he's 6th in MVP voting, all-NBA 2nd team, averaging 27/8/5 and we're saying he couldn't have showcased any of that in 2000 under different conditions? And again, I think if TMac is on the team from day one it's possible Jones is kept and then you've got an explosive perimeter duo with Shaq. I think Tmac and Eddie Jones may have proven a better overall combo than Kobe and past prime Glen Rice in 2000, because Jones was a better player in 2000 than Rice was. We just don't know how this would have played out.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;15017873]I mean, Shawfactory explained it simply enough. He went from 15ppg in 2000 to 27ppg immediately the following season, and 34ppg against the Bucks who went onto the ECFs. Very clearly 2000 Tmac was capable of more, you don't jump THAT much from one season to the next. Is it that hard to imagine that Tmac in 2000 next to Shaq puts up similar production to Kobe? If anything, I'm not sure why Doug Christie was the starting SG in 2000, unless they just needed TMac for offensive punch off the bench, because Vince is listed as the starting SF. Who's to say what happens if Vince is the starting 2 and TMac starting 3 that year?[/QUOTE]

I'm more impressed with Kobe's jump from 2000 to 2001 with everyone holding him back and did on both ends and played winning basketball. Tmac did it in Orlando but couldn't in toronto with Vince the same season in 2000... what's so hard to understand for you? More what ifs on top of what ifs... the facts are he couldn't start in Toronto, averaged 15 in 32min and you can ponder all day long why christie or whoever was starting and how unfair it was for poor tmac.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;15017879]This is Tmac in Game 1 2000 vs Knicks:


[video=youtube;rhvZmBHIsf8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhvZmBHIsf8&ab_channel=gearmast3r[/video]


Now, that was really his only good game of the series( best of 5), but the point being.....I can see a reality where Tmac on the Lakers from day 1 develops faster than spending two of his first three seasons behind Vince. Eddie Jones was moved expressly to put Kobe into the starting lineup which no doubt accelerated his growth vs letting him develop slowly on the bench. By year 4 he already had a good deal of playoff experience. These guys first 3-4 years played out under different scenarios. It's very clear Tmac had oodles of talent bubbling under the surface, and the INSTANT he's the featured player he's 6th in MVP voting, all-NBA 2nd team, averaging 27/8/5 and we're saying he couldn't have showcased any of that in 2000 under different conditions? And again, I think if TMac is on the team from day one it's possible Jones is kept and then you've got an explosive perimeter duo with Shaq. I think Tmac and Eddie Jones may have actually proven a better overall combo than Kobe and end of prime Glen Rice that year. We just don't know how this would have played out[/QUOTE]

Idiot

Dude's just fantasizing. Sorry i don't speak lebum

[QUOTE=LAL;15017881]Idiot

Dude's just fantasizing. Sorry i don't speak lebum[/QUOTE]

Ok, and you've just shown the extent of your intellect jumping to needless insults when this was otherwise a fairly innocent exchange, and referencing Lebron. That says more about you than anything else being said here. So, I guess I'll just call you a c*nt and go about my day? Not much more needs to be discussed when the conversation turns that direction.

[QUOTE=LAL;15017880]I'm more impressed with Kobe's jump from 2000 to 2001 with everyone holding him back and did on both ends and played winning basketball. Tmac did it in Orlando but couldn't in toronto with Vince the same season in 2000... what's so hard to understand for you? More what ifs on top of what ifs... the facts are he couldn't start in Toronto, averaged 15 in 32min and you can ponder all day long why christie or whoever was starting and how unfair it was for poor tmac.[/QUOTE]

Obviously the whole thing is a what if, IDIOT. What's so hard for YOU to understand that a players circumstances can seriously undermine what they're able to showcase? Look at what James Harden did in his last season in OKC and his first one in Houston, the leap is similar to Tmac. You don't just 'suddenly' become that good from the end of one season to the start of another.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;15017882]Ok, and you've just shown the extent of your intellect jumping to needless insults when this was otherwise a fairly innocent exchange, and referencing Lebron. That says more about you than anything else being said here. So, I guess I'll just call you a c*nt and go about my day? Not much more needs to be discussed when the conversation turns that direction.[/QUOTE]

We are talking about nothing, it's crap. But i know why this topic interests you.

Maan Lakers should have traded Eddie Jones and let Kobe start from day one in 97, 5 rings easily with Shaq, easily!! You saw the jump he made in 2001, would've happened much sooner.



Tell me am i doing this right bro?

[QUOTE=Phoenix;15017885]Obviously the whole thing is a what if, IDIOT. What's so hard for YOU to understand that a players circumstances can seriously undermine what they're able to showcase? Look at what James Harden did in his last season in OKC and his first one in Houston, the leap is similar to Tmac. You don't just 'suddenly' become that good from the end of one season to the start of another.[/QUOTE]

You still don't get it LOL