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The proliferation of the three-point shot & its usage by HOU under coach Rudy T is an important detail to acknowledge. How much did Hakeem improve as a passer, and how much did the available passing [I]opportunities[/I] improve? These are interesting questions to be asked.
[QUOTE=Carbine;15021533]Ok, but Hakeem is not judged on what he did in the 80s.
What he eventually became, is what I think is more important. He kept evolving. That's the whole point.[/QUOTE]
So we are only supposed to judge him based on 3 seasons in a 18 year career? Cool story bro
We aren't talking about career greatness here. The subject is his offense. It's perfectly fine to use a players peak in this case.
If we're talking about the best offensive bigs, I'd first ask what is meant by [I]bigs[/I]. Just centers? What about forwards? And are we talking peak, prime, or a career aggregated mean?
C: Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Jokic
PF/C: Dirk
PF/SF: Barkley
I might be missing some, but that's where I'd start. Wilt more so for his 1967 peak.
[QUOTE=Carbine;15021541]We aren't talking about career greatness here. The subject is his offense. It's perfectly fine to use a players peak in this case.[/QUOTE]
So it is ok to only look at 57 games in a career of 1383 games?
:facepalm
[QUOTE=Im Still Ballin;15021542]If we're talking about the best offensive bigs, I'd first ask what is meant by [I]bigs[/I]. Just centers? What about forwards? And are we talking peak, prime, or a career aggregated mean?
C: Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Jokic
PF/C: Dirk
PF/SF: Barkley
I might be missing some, but that's where I'd start. Wilt more so for his 1967 peak.[/QUOTE]
If you're going to include for his 1967 peak, why wouldn't you include Hakeem with that group? His peak was as good or better than any of Shaqs best. That is undeniable, against better direct competition as well.
[QUOTE=tontoz;15021543]So it is ok to only look at 57 games in a career of 1383 games?
:facepalm[/QUOTE]
If you value some random third game in four nights regular season game the same as a playoff game be my guest.
If you value any of his games in Toronto, be my guest.
I value what you were at your relative best. What your final form was. Shows me that you worked on your game and eventually had it all come together.
Let me rephrase it for you so you don't become argumentative just for the sake of it. Hakeem is definitely in the GOAT offensive peaks ever for big men.
[QUOTE=Carbine;15021546]If you value some random third game in four nights regular season game the same as a playoff game be my guest.
If you value any of his games in Toronto, be my guest.
I value what you were at your relative best. What your final form was. Shows me that you worked on your game and eventually had it all come together.
Let me rephrase it for you so you don't become argumentative just for the sake of it. Hakeem is definitely in the GOAT offensive peaks ever for big men.[/QUOTE]
:roll:
Even at his peak in the playoffs his scoring efficiency was nothing special. He isn't even in the same ZIP code as Jokic on offense. Jokic has a career average in the playoffs of 27 pts 8 assists.
Advanced stats are even more lopsided. Jokic has a career postseason average OBPM of 8 which is double what Hakeem had during his "peak".
If you're going to believe that Hakeem in his two championship runs had less of an offensive impact on his team (7.5 combined OBPM) than Chauncey Billups did for the Pistons when they made back to back finals (8.1 combined OBPM) I don't really want to discuss any further.
I'm not interested in debating stats like that. If that's how you do it, good for you man. You better stay consistent about that. For example, LeBron's peak shits on Currys OBPM for any playoff run. Actually he has two that are above and beyond anything Curry has ever done.
CJ McCollum regular season two peak years are about equal to Gilbert Arenas regular season two year peak.
If that's the route you wish to take..... Tread carefully
[QUOTE=Carbine;15021576]If you're going to believe that Hakeem in his two championship runs had less of an offensive impact on his team (7.5 combined OBPM) than Chauncey Billups did for the Pistons when they made back to back finals (8.1 combined OBPM) I don't really want to discuss any further.
I'm not interested in debating stats like that. If that's how you do it, good for you man. You better stay consistent about that. For example, LeBron's peak shits on Currys OBPM for any playoff run. Actually he has two that are above and beyond anything Curry has ever done.
CJ McCollum regular season two peak years are about equal to Gilbert Arenas regular season two year peak.
If that's the route you wish to take..... Tread carefully[/QUOTE]
I don't need to tread carefully when Jokic's numbers are double Hakeem's. :lol
During Hakeems title runs he scored only a few points more than Jokic's career playoff average, with barely more than half the assists and worse efficiency.
If someone wants to say Hakeem was a better player overall i would disagree but wouldn't care enough to argue because Hakeem was such a strong defender. But saying Hakeem was better on offense is laughable. Jokic is a better shooter from everywhere and the best passing center ever.
During his title runs Hakeem had an ORTG of 109-110. Jokic's career playoff average is 123.
[QUOTE=tontoz;15021553]:roll:
Even at his peak in the playoffs his scoring efficiency was nothing special. He isn't even in the same ZIP code as Jokic on offense. Jokic has a career average in the playoffs of 27 pts 8 assists.
Advanced stats are even more lopsided. Jokic has a career postseason average OBPM of 8 which is double what Hakeem had during his "peak".[/QUOTE]
Yet he could completely take over and control games on both ends of the floor simultaneously. Joker could never dream of controlling a game defensively.
[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;15021635]Yet he could completely take over and control games on both ends of the floor simultaneously. Joker could never dream of controlling a game defensively.[/QUOTE]
That is a separate argument. This discussion is about offense. Try to keep up.
akeem was defender first in league besides a weak side offense and boards man...
When the 2 chips , his game was polished and his foot work was supreme.
Players today go to him to immolate his foot work to create open shoots.
Remember Giannis's early years.. Now he has Dirk one legged as well as left wing foot work like Akeem/
The Hakeem/ Jokic thing is interesting, because they really do have different responsibilities on top of how different their eras are. Jokic is very clearly a better shooter and passer, and that's regardless of era. Hakeem is no doubt light years ahead on defense, and that also would be in any era( you can see that Hakeem would be fine on defense in 2025 because he was mobile enough to switch on the perimeter if need be). I do wonder what Hakeem would be like offensively if he took his foot off the pedal on defense. I don't find he and Jokic to be all that comparable just trading numbers. I can more easily see the things and attributes they're each better at regardless of the era they played in. Really, any player that is an inherently great passer would feast today. Can you imagine Magic playing with today's spacing, when his entire reputation as a passer was build on sleight of hand threading the needle in clogged paints?
[QUOTE=tontoz;15021636]That is a separate argument. This discussion is about offense. Try to keep up.[/QUOTE]
Its just a small point to illustrate how much the advanced stats only tell you some of what really was. Olajuwon was just as much the hub of the Rockets offense as Joker was just more post gravity than playmaking. The rockets literally put 4 guys around him who could anywhere from shoot well to kinda shoot ok occasionally and let him work down low. Hed either score or create an open shot for one of those guys. It worked well enough to win back to back titles. Joker does have pretty stats, I cant deny that but Dream would eat him alive.