80's vs 90's

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]That's not exactly fair. MJ didn't have to face the depth of good teams in the 90's that he would've had to face in the 80's (due to expansion, free agency, etc), but by the same token the 80's didn't have to face the beast that MJ became starting in the early 90's.

By the way, the 80's had more good teams because the talent wasn't as diluted and teams stayed together longer, but the 90's had much better defense. Maybe I should say, defenders were allowed to do much more in the 90's than they were in the 80's. Once the Pistons started winning championships by playing brutally physical defense in the late 80's, it set the tone for the 90's. Less talented teams were not as easy to beat because they were allowed to maul the other team defensively.

For example, the Bucks were a good team in the mid through the late 80's. They were much more talented than, say, the early 90's Knicks. But which team is harder to defeat? I would say the Knicks because they were big strong players that were allowed to play very physical. The Bucks beat you on talent and execution. The Knicks just beat you up.

The Celtics struggled against the Pistons in the late 80's. Larry Bird [I]really[/I] struggled against the Pistons, especially in 88. The Pistons are the pre-cursor to the defensive-minded teams of the 90's. It's not too hard to believe that Larry and the Celtics would have struggled against the Pistons-cloned teams of the 90's even though the C's were WAY more talented.[/QUOTE]

Interesting take.

There's a poster on another board who suggested that one of the main reasons pace was higher back then was because of the concentration of talent -- teams with lots of talent want to run and press their talent advantage early and often, because they have multiple players who can do multiple things with the ball, and all of them can score. Teams that are less talented prefer to slow things down since they need to execute at a much higher level in the halfcourt to get scores, and they also prefer to grind it out/thug it up defensively to neutralize superior talent. At least this is what he says. I think it's an interesting, if not entirely accurate, perspective.

One could look at how Pat Riley coached a team with a ton of offensive talent (the 80's Lakers) versus how he coached teams with far less offensive talent (90's Heat/Knicks) for some evidence of that. Stylistically, it was like night and day. One wonders if philosophical changes in the game re: defense were the only factors driving that change.

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]That's not exactly fair. MJ didn't have to face the depth of good teams in the 90's that he would've had to face in the 80's (due to expansion, free agency, etc), but by the same token the 80's didn't have to face the beast that MJ became starting in the early 90's.

By the way, the 80's had more good teams because the talent wasn't as diluted and teams stayed together longer, but the 90's had much better defense. Maybe I should say, defenders were allowed to do much more in the 90's than they were in the 80's. Once the Pistons started winning championships by playing brutally physical defense in the late 80's, it set the tone for the 90's. Less talented teams were not as easy to beat because they were allowed to maul the other team defensively.

For example, the Bucks were a good team in the mid through the late 80's. They were much more talented than, say, the early 90's Knicks. But which team is harder to defeat? I would say the Knicks because they were big strong players that were allowed to play very physical. The Bucks beat you on talent and execution. The Knicks just beat you up.

The Celtics struggled against the Pistons in the late 80's. Larry Bird [I]really[/I] struggled against the Pistons, especially in 88. The Pistons are the pre-cursor to the defensive-minded teams of the 90's. It's not too hard to believe that Larry and the Celtics would have struggled against the Pistons-cloned teams of the 90's even though the C's were WAY more talented.[/QUOTE]

the league was not "diluted" in the 90s

[QUOTE=97 bulls]but its widely regarded that the nba was at a down period in the 70s and alot of those teams that won in the early eighties had dominant 70s players. look at the first five years of the 80s. it all the same. i mean the first few championships in the 80s were still dominated by 70s players. other than magic and bird. and magic joined a good team. so once again, theres really no fifference between the 90s and 80s.

and also as far as comparing the 80s and 90s. 80s proponents biggest argument is the "watered down" theory. this theory is ASSinine. you have no logical basis to support that the league is any less talented now or in the 90s than it was in the 80s. your reasoning that if the league had less teams the talent concentration would be better is a faulty one because drafting players is not an exact science. hundreds of players have ended up being better than the players drafted ahead of them. and obviously, the draft is a gamble. hell, in the early 80s there were FIVE rounds in the draft. as opposed to only TWO in the 90s and present. so really it was easier to get in the nba in the 80s.

the next argument 80s ******gers use is stats. but that has been refuted many times by pace and so forth.

i truly believe 80s people love that decade because of the up and down fast paced style of play. [B]but the fact is that more people watched the nba in the 90s than the 80s and that was mainly bacause of the BULLS.[/B] that team was compared to the beatles. with jordan and rodman, and europeans watching toni kukoc who was the best player in europe at the time. a team who is regarded by many as the GREATEST TEAN EVER.[/QUOTE]

Like i said before popularity does not equal quality.

The 80's will always be the Glory days of the NBA rather you like it or not. You had more great teams in the 80's much better rivalries in the 80's and better players in the 80's.

Just look at the NBA in the mid-late 80's

Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Michael Jordan
Charles Barkley
Karl Malone
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Dominique Wilkins
Joe Dumars
Isiah Thomas
Patrick Ewing
Hakeem Olajuwon
John Stockton
Moses Malone
Robert Parish
Julius Erving
Adrian Dantley
Kevin McHale
Clyde Drexler
Alex English
James Worthy

At one point there were 20 HOFers playing in the NBA at the same time with 23 teams in the NBA. Thats an average of nearly 1 HOF player per team. TRULY AMAZING!!!

Not to mention you had 3 of the greatest teams in NBA History playing in this period of time. The '86 Celtics, '87 Lakers, & '89 Pistons.

80's = GOAT:rockon:

[QUOTE=Loki]Interesting take.

There's a poster on another board who suggested that one of the main reasons pace was higher back then was because of the concentration of talent -- teams with lots of talent want to run and press their talent advantage early and often, because they have multiple players who can do multiple things with the ball, and all of them can score. Teams that are less talented prefer to slow things down since they need to execute at a much higher level in the halfcourt to get scores, and they also prefer to grind it out/thug it up defensively to neutralize superior talent. At least this is what he says. I think it's an interesting, if not entirely accurate, perspective.

One could look at how Pat Riley coached a team with a ton of offensive talent (the 80's Lakers) versus how he coached teams with far less offensive talent (90's Heat/Knicks) for some evidence of that. Stylistically, it was like night and day. One wonders if philosophical changes in the game re: defense were the only factors driving that change.[/QUOTE]

tell your friend that hes an idiot. the knicks were a physical team and the lakers were a finesse team. it has nothing to do with the kincks not being as talented than the lakers beacause they couldnt run, and more to do with a team playing to their strength. the lakers coulnt play a physical style of ball. the only team that could play both styles is the bulls

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers]Like i said before popularity does not equal quality.

The 80's will always be the Glory days of the NBA rather you like it or not. You had more great teams in the 80's much better rivalries in the 80's and better players in the 80's.

Just look at the NBA in the mid-late 80's

Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Michael Jordan
Charles Barkley
Karl Malone
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Dominique Wilkins
Joe Dumars
Isiah Thomas
Patrick Ewing
Hakeem Olajuwon
John Stockton
Moses Malone
Robert Parish
Julius Erving
Adrian Dantley
Kevin McHale
Clyde Drexler
Alex English
James Worthy

At one point there were 20 HOFers playing in the NBA at the same time with 23 teams in the NBA. Thats an average of nearly 1 HOF player per team. TRULY AMAZING!!!

Not to mention you had 3 of the greatest teams in NBA History playing in this period of time. The '86 Celtics, '87 Lakers, & '89 Pistons.

80's = GOAT:rockon:[/QUOTE]


by you not answering to my rebutal to the watered down theory i assume that you agree. and while i def. feel that the teams and players you named were great the 90s (in particular96-97) bulls were better than all three.

but its widely regarded that the nba was at a down period in the 70s and alot of those teams that won in the early eighties had dominant 70s players. look at the first five years of the 80s. it all the same. i mean the first few championships in the 80s were still dominated by 70s players. other than magic and bird. and magic joined a good team. so once again, theres really no fifference between the 90s and 80s.

[B]That is why I am saying that the 80s draft players or close to the 80s was the most competitive time in the NBA. No era has produced so many Great Stars some which would be in the Top 50-60 Players of All Time and did not make it just do to dumb policies like Dominique Wilkins or Bernard King. Guys like Mark Aguirre, Alex English, Rolando Blackman, Ralph Samson, Chuck Person great players that could not keep themselves as healthy in the 90s but trust me if they did they would have rocked much stronger than most of the 90s Drafted Stars.

It actually took less years for the 80s drafted players to make impacts. Examples are many: Bird, Magic, Worthy, McHale, Isiah, Bernard King, Joe Dumars, Drexler, Dominique Wilkins, Jordan, Barkley, Stockton, Alex English, Rolando Blackman, Ralph Samson, Hakeem, K Malone, Patrick Ewing, Reggie Miller, Tom Chambers, Chris Mullin, Rodman, David Robinson, Kevin Jhonson, Tim Hardaway etc all of these where STAR CALIBER PLAYERS by their 2nd or 3rd season. In some cases by their 1st. Roll Players that were drafted in the 80s were superor to the ones drafted in the 90s too.

What im saying the 80s players made great impacts right away and only few 70s Drafted Stars and Great 70s Drafted Roll Players of that era could sustain themselves with the 80s Drafted Stars [U]but in the 90s pretty much, the 80s Drafted Stars Kept dominating till 1999, when finally the Spurs won with Robinson as their leader and Duncan as an emerging young star[/U].

[U]Compared to the 80s were both 70s and 80s Stars Ruled, very few 1990s Drafted Stars could compete straight up with the 1980s Drafted Stars or Roll Players even if these dudes where way past their phyisical prime [/U](and in 80% of the cases they were inferior). Some examples: Shaq, Alonso Morning, Kemp, Webber, Grant Hill, Jason Kid and thats about it.

Pistons won a Championship with Starting line ups and most players that where all 80s draft players. Pistons: Bill Laimbeer 80-81, Isiah Thomas 81-82, Joe Dumars 85-86, Salley 86-87, Mahorn 80-81, Rodman 86-87, Vinne Johnson 79-80 (very close). Same with the Lakers: Magic 79-80, Worthy 82-83 Bryant 83-84, Green 85-86, Rambis 81-82) and Celtics: Bird is 79-80 pretty much 80s too and McHale 80-81 were the deadly scoring threats, Parish, Maxwell and DJ were late 70s great roll players and semi stars, not early 70s.[/B]


and also as far as comparing the 80s and 90s. 80s proponents biggest argument is the "watered down" theory. this theory is ASSinine. you have no logical basis to support that the league is any less talented now or in the 90s than it was in the 80s. your reasoning that if the league had less teams the talent concentration would be better is a faulty one because drafting players is not an exact science. hundreds of players have ended up being better than the players drafted ahead of them. and obviously, the draft is a gamble. hell, in the early 80s there were FIVE rounds in the draft. as opposed to only TWO in the 90s and present. so really it was easier to get in the nba in the 80s.

the next argument 80s ******gers use is stats. but that has been refuted many times by pace and so forth

[B]Then explain to me why is it that the 1980s Drafted Stars and 1980s Drafted Great Roll Players (especially the Stars) kept dominating the 1990s Drafted Stars with ease in most cases?[/B]

.

i truly believe 80s people love that decade because of the up and down fast paced style of play. but the fact is that more people watched the nba in the 90s than the 80s and that was mainly bacause of the BULLS. that team was compared to the beatles. with jordan and rodman, and europeans watching toni kukoc who was the best player in europe at the time. a team who is regarded by many as the GREATEST TEAN EVER.

[B]We loved the 80s and early 90s (a continuation of the 80s Stars and Great Roll Players) because it was just a superior era with more talent :rolleyes: not because the fast paced style :confusedshrug:.

And actually in the 1980s, the Lakers was the only team capable of playing that style year after year succesfully for 5 Championships. Portland failed, Jazz failed, Suns failed, Sonics which had both also failed. Rockets finally won when Jordan left to play Baseball.

The truth is that the 1980s and early 1990s was dominated by Slow Paced Eastern Teams like the Sixers: 1 Championship, the Celtics: 3 Championships (could play both but prefered the slow paced), Pistons: 2 Championships and Bulls: 3 Straight Championships.

East: 9 Championships Total (and all were major struggles after winning the Eastern Semifinals etc)
West: 5 Championships Total (just the Lakers, which arrived in perfect condition to the finals year after year because the tough play and competition was in the east!)

Then again go ask DJ, Bird, McHale, Jordan, Barkley, Isiah, Dumars, Laimbeer etc where the real competition was in the East or West? They would say without question the East :hammerhead: . The Lakers had a very easy competition (Rockets and Blazers if that!) compared to these dudes. Even the [U]Bucks, Cavs and Knicks[/U], if they played in the West, would have become a Way Superior Competition in the West for the Lakers in both the late 80s and early 90s.

1980s Stars By far:violin:[/B]

[QUOTE=72-10]The 80s were actually probably the worst period in music... well the 00s certainly puts up a fight for that dubious distinction with all the shyt out there.[/QUOTE]

[B]Are you insane? Compare Hard Rock, Aor, Metal, Progressive Rock or even Pop Singers, Ballads, Soul of the 80s to the bull**** of the 90s: Grunge,Alternative **** etc :hammerhead:

80s = Goat Time of Basketball and Everything Else![/B]

[QUOTE=97 bulls]tell your friend that hes an idiot. the knicks were a physical team and the lakers were a finesse team. it has nothing to do with the kincks not being as talented than the lakers beacause they couldnt run, and more to do with a team playing to their strength. the lakers coulnt play a physical style of ball. the only team that could play both styles is the bulls[/QUOTE]

Anyone can play a physical style of ball if they buy into it. He's not my "friend," either, just a poster on another board.

[QUOTE=Loki]Anyone can play a physical style of ball if they buy into it. He's not my "friend," either, just a poster on another board.[/QUOTE]

[B]Wrong. It depends on the players you have. In the 80s the West used to favor elegant fast paced dribbling passing offensive players for their teams (only the Lakers were succesfull) while the East favored witty agressive defensive minded play ground players that could rebound and post play.

In the 90s both styles minged together so the differences were less

1980s Goat Era of NBA Basketball, Period.[/B].

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers]Like i said before popularity does not equal quality.

The 80's will always be the Glory days of the NBA rather you like it or not. You had more great teams in the 80's much better rivalries in the 80's and better players in the 80's.

Just look at the NBA in the mid-late 80's

Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Michael Jordan
Charles Barkley
Karl Malone
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Dominique Wilkins
Joe Dumars
Isiah Thomas
Patrick Ewing
Hakeem Olajuwon
John Stockton
Moses Malone
Robert Parish
Julius Erving
Adrian Dantley
Kevin McHale
Clyde Drexler
Alex English
James Worthy

At one point there were 20 HOFers playing in the NBA at the same time with 23 teams in the NBA. Thats an average of nearly 1 HOF player per team. TRULY AMAZING!!!

Not to mention you had 3 of the greatest teams in NBA History playing in this period of time. The '86 Celtics, '87 Lakers, & '89 Pistons.

80's = GOAT:rockon:[/QUOTE]

[B]Forgot David Robinson he was 1989 Draft:), Kevin McHale, Ralph Samson, Dennis Rodman, Chris Mullin, Tom Chambers, Kevin Jhonson, Alex English, Rolando Blackman, Bernard King, Scottie Pippen, Reggie Miller, Fat Lever etc etc..list goes on:applause: [/B]

80s
90s

00s
70s


60s

50s


40s

[QUOTE=72-10]80s
90s

00s
70s


60s

50s


40s[/QUOTE]

[B]Close but Change it to:

1-Glorious 1980s!

2-Early & Mid 1990s

3-Late 1990s
4-2000s

5-1970s

6-1960s
7-1950s

8-1940s[/B]

:)

its as simple as the more things change the more they stay the same. the players drafted in the 70s dominated the mid 80s. players drafted in the mid 80s dominated the 90s the players drafted in the 90s are domianating now and players drafted in the 00s are gonna dominate the teens. now as with every rule there is an exception and in this case its guys like magic and bird being drafted right into the 80s and dominating AND THAT DOESNT MEAN THAT THE LEAGUE WAS WEAK BUT BY YOUR LOGIC IT WAS. or jordan dominating all the way up to 98. or guys like wade and lebron coming in and almost instantly making it to the finals or winning it(wade in 95). thats my explanation

[QUOTE=Sir Charles][B]Forgot David Robinson he was 1989 Draft:), Kevin McHale, Ralph Samson, Dennis Rodman, Chris Mullin, Tom Chambers, Kevin Jhonson, Alex English, Rolando Blackman, Bernard King, Scottie Pippen, Reggie Miller, Fat Lever etc etc..list goes on:applause: [/B][/QUOTE]


what is the signifacance of this post i could rattle of names of great players drafted in the 90s too. if those are your favorites fine. its saying one era is less talented than others is where i draw the line.

[QUOTE=Loki]Anyone can play a physical style of ball if they buy into it. He's not my "friend," either, just a poster on another board.[/QUOTE]

dude in order to be play physical you have to be physical.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]its as simple as the more things change the more they stay the same. the players drafted in the 70s dominated the mid 80s. [B]players drafted in the mid 80s dominated the 90s[/B] the players drafted in the 90s are domianating now and players drafted in the 00s are gonna dominate the teens. now as with every rule there is an exception and in this case its guys like magic and bird being drafted right into the 80s and dominating AND THAT DOESNT MEAN THAT THE LEAGUE WAS WEAK BUT BY YOUR LOGIC IT WAS. or jordan dominating all the way up to 98. or guys like wade and lebron coming in and almost instantly making it to the finals or winning it(wade in 95). thats my explanation[/QUOTE]

They also dominated in the 80's. That's what made that era so great.

Guys who dominated the 90's like Charles Barkley, Michael Jordan, Hakeem, Ewing also dominated the 80's.

Barkley had seasons averaging 25-28 PPG while grabbing 12-15 RPG during the 80's. Jordan was MVP and DPOY in '88 also ROY in '85 and was ALL NBA First team 1987-1989. Hakeem reached the NBA Finals in 1986 and ALL NBA First team threw 1987-1989. Patrick Ewing averaged 20 PPG and 9 RPG during the 80's. Karl Malone was a top 3 PF in the NBA during the late 80's.

Now look at players drafted in the mid 90's. Kobe Bryant, Steve Nash, & Kevin Garnett didn't make much noice in the 90's. Rookies in the 90's did not make impact like rookies in the 80's.